The Murder of George Floyd & Subsequent Protests/Riots

[evilrubberduckie]

To put my cards on the table I think this mess basically ended the last argument for western style multiculturalism in my part of the world. This was generally seen as bad idea even before this and now the idea will further loose the ground. Especially due to quite strong turn towards the right and big government.

This event of protest wasn't caused because of multiculturalism. In fact, multicultural neighborhoods are thriving with good food, and business. The issue with the role of the police and the constant discrimination Black's have faced in this country since colonialism.

If anything, this even has caused stronger bonds between cultures, since every culture around the world has something to say about European and American politics meddling in each perspective culture.

What I'm trying to say is, it's the white peoples fault.

 

[Tellenbach]

If we don't respect property rights, why isn't the U.S. a failure?

Most Americans do respect property rights. The leftist extremist elements represent a tiny percentage of the people and we've always had domestic terrorist groups like the Weather Underground and environmental nuts setting SUVs on fire and releasing lab animals.

Perhaps that is why there was not looting in Japan, but I suspect you would be uncomfortable with that conclusion. Maybe looting is actually a byproduct of our American ideology, especially with regards to consumerism.

It's bad parenting; no need to look further. I suspect a large number of these terrorists were raised without fathers.

No doubt your refrain of "cities have lots of Democrats" is simply an efficient distillation of a well-considered viewpoint, rather than the mere kneejerk response to paper over cracks in one's worldview that it appears to be.

No offense, but you're usually wrong; maybe it's time to recalibrate your perspective of how things work in the world. Rely a bit more on empirical evidence and a little less on whatever it is that shapes your current worldview.

 

[ceecee]

I'm sure none of these thug shitheads had a father either - no respect for others' property at all.



Video Shows Cops Slashing Tires Across Minneapolis During Protests – Reason.com

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

No offense, but you're usually wrong; maybe it's time to recalibrate your perspective of how things work in the world. Rely a bit more on empirical evidence and a little less on whatever it is that shapes your current worldview.

Well, I'm not the one trembling in fear right now.

 

[anticlimatic]

Old news. They're looking at reforming them

Really? Cause they're saying disband.

How can one merely reform something that is too systemically rotten to be saved anyway? If it is not systemically rotten, what are we protesting?

 

[Cupcakemonster]

I've been thinking a lot on this the last couple of days & these are my thoughts. Sorry this is so long guys.

1. Police brutality does happen but it can & does happen to people of all races. I HAD A COP PUT ME IN A CHOKEHOLD.
2. Cops accused of misconduct should be fired from ever being an officer anywhere ever again.
3. Unconcious bias is not real. How can I have racist thoughts that I don't even know I'm having? I know my own thoughts & they are conscious. I in no way ever act racist towards other people. I do not subscribe to being a mind reader of anyone else, & actions matter more than thoughts that people do not act on anyway.
4. If white privilege is something like being followed in a store, how do you quantify that? Is there data on it? Or is it anecdotal?
5. I am not responsible for anyone's actions that are not my own, & neither are you. I'm not responsible for things in the past before I was born, I'm not responsible for others behaviors right now, & I'm not responsible for anyone else's behavior in the future.
6. Too many people are locked up for nonviolent crimes, & laws in the criminal justice system need to be changed. Sentencing needs fixed too.
7. The statement black lives matter is true. Of course their lives matter. Who's really arguing that they don't? The fact that someone's life matters should just be self explanatory.
8. If I saw someone being choked in front of me by a cop, or by anyone for that matter, I would try my hardest to pull that person off of them. I don't care if I would get shot or tackled or whatever, I would do whatever I could to help another person from being hurt even at the cost of my safety or risking jail time.
9. White people do not on average target harming black people. The statistics just don't support it. White people are MORE likely to get shot by police. Last year 9 unarmed black people were killed by the police & 19 unarmed white people were killed.
10. Statistically most people are killed by people of their own race by a huge margin & more white people are killed by black people than the other way around.
11. If you care about black lives then you also need to shed light on the high homicide rate of black people in inner cities. You need to care about better public education too.
12. Jewish people are statistically the MOST likely to be affected by hate crimes, but why is that not discussed?
13. People need to stop telling others or themselves that they're not going to make something of themselves in life. The biggest person that holds anyone from achieving something in their life is THEMSELF.
14. Racism is wrong & should be called out! All these cops in the George Floyd case SHOULD BE CHARGED WITH MURDER. But that doesn't mean most people in America as a whole are racists. That guy should of long been off the police force. All those police officers are vile people.
15. We do not need to be divided. We need to come together to make logical change. Most of us are caring people.
16. Destroying people's small businesses does not help anyone. Destroying property in already poor communities makes it harder for them to get ahead in life & takes a long time to rebuild.

 

[Tomb1]

9. White people do not on average target harming black people. The statistics just don't support it. White people are MORE likely to get shot by police. Last year 9 unarmed black people were killed by the police & 19 unarmed white people were killed.
10. Statistically most people are killed by people of their own race by a huge margin & more white people are killed by black people than the other way around.
11. If you care about black lives then you also need to shed light on the high homicide rate of black people in inner cities. You need to care about better public education too.
12. Jewish people are statistically the MOST likely to be affected by hate crimes, but why is that not discussed?

The short answer is demagoguery. This tendency for scapegoating and blaming outside groups for the problems in one own's group increases significantly in times of high unemployment and stress. The hardliner wing of Black Lives Matter found its viability primarily through scapegoating the institution of Law Enforcement and Whites-at-large for all its communities' black-on-black homicides and pretty much all other problems in the black community. It's like when some right-wing groups scapegoat migrant workers for all their own economic troubles in life. Contrary statistics don't matter either way because it all comes down to a "systemic issue." Of course, the problem with that is anything can be repackaged as a systemic issue in order to further a political agenda.

 

[Virtual ghost]

This event of protest wasn't caused because of multiculturalism. In fact, multicultural neighborhoods are thriving with good food, and business. The issue with the role of the police and the constant discrimination Black's have faced in this country since colonialism.

If anything, this even has caused stronger bonds between cultures, since every culture around the world has something to say about European and American politics meddling in each perspective culture.

What I'm trying to say is, it's the white peoples fault.

This is isn't how my local people see it for the most part. The thing is that if you have large package of countries that are over 99% white by not introducing multiculturalism you are cutting any possibility that all of these problems and events can happen on this way. My point is that these protesting events that have also spilled into the Western Europe are very strong argument for dominant forces in my part of the world. Since here there is no Colonialism and it's legacy while some degree of white supremacy goes from far left to far right. Here simply mass of people dislikes everything that directly or indirectly has something to do with colonialism: too much emphasis on private business, introducing foreign/colored people as cheap labor, tolerating wide diversity ... etc. If conspiracy theories are true Russia boosted Trump in 2016 exactly with desire to make a mess in the landscape. While with current events there will also be further disruption on westernizing Eastern Europe that will now probably turn even more towards Russia in the terms of cultural issues. Since all of this can easily be presented as fail of western logic by our local standards and multiculturalism of western style isn't something that really sells here. You say it is "white people's fault" and I say that in this part of the world because of this the system will not bring in the people of color as it stands. So the drama will be cut right in the foundation. Why would a country/region that is 100% white go west if the west is no longer white ? This is politically incorrect question but people here don't care about this that much. Actually here more and more people sees the west as the party where they simply don't belong anymore. Since western left or right doesn't really resonate with most people here.



My point was that all these events are very strong geopolitical argument/event, what is something that is being overlooked in the so called first world. Here the parliaments are getting filled with nationalists and Communists and all of this will probably only boost the current trend. Especially if US starts to implode from within for real, since in that case it strength on the outside will start to dry up for everyone to see. While even the current slow loss of US power is strongly felt here where American and Russian spheres of influences meet. Just the other day I was reading the article that comes down to "US, further than ever from the region in it's modern history". Plus the general social narrative is more and more that at least the western Europe must be liberated from liberalism. While with these unrests, the pandemic and the fact that sum of all public debts in US just passed 146% of GDP we have on the table all the cards needed for some massive remaking of world order.



The chessboard is much wider in this game than some people think.

 

[Red Memories]

I'm sure none of these thug shitheads had a father either - no respect for others' property at all.



Video Shows Cops Slashing Tires Across Minneapolis During Protests – Reason.com

side note I always feel the "not having a father figure" is SUCH a weird argument. I've never had a father in my life and I'm not doing these kinds of things. Life is a series of choices and circumstances.

 

[Red Memories]

I've been thinking a lot on this the last couple of days & these are my thoughts. Sorry this is so long guys.

1. Police brutality does happen but it can & does happen to people of all races. I HAD A COP PUT ME IN A CHOKEHOLD.
2. Cops accused of misconduct should be fired from ever being an officer anywhere ever again.
3. Unconcious bias is not real. How can I have racist thoughts that I don't even know I'm having? I know my own thoughts & they are conscious. I in no way ever act racist towards other people. I do not subscribe to being a mind reader of anyone else, & actions matter more than thoughts that people do not act on anyway.
4. If white privilege is something like being followed in a store, how do you quantify that? Is there data on it? Or is it anecdotal?
5. I am not responsible for anyone's actions that are not my own, & neither are you. I'm not responsible for things in the past before I was born, I'm not responsible for others behaviors right now, & I'm not responsible for anyone else's behavior in the future.
6. Too many people are locked up for nonviolent crimes, & laws in the criminal justice system need to be changed. Sentencing needs fixed too.
7. The statement black lives matter is true. Of course their lives matter. Who's really arguing that they don't? The fact that someone's life matters should just be self explanatory.
8. If I saw someone being choked in front of me by a cop, or by anyone for that matter, I would try my hardest to pull that person off of them. I don't care if I would get shot or tackled or whatever, I would do whatever I could to help another person from being hurt even at the cost of my safety or risking jail time.
9. White people do not on average target harming black people. The statistics just don't support it. White people are MORE likely to get shot by police. Last year 9 unarmed black people were killed by the police & 19 unarmed white people were killed.
10. Statistically most people are killed by people of their own race by a huge margin & more white people are killed by black people than the other way around.
11. If you care about black lives then you also need to shed light on the high homicide rate of black people in inner cities. You need to care about better public education too.
12. Jewish people are statistically the MOST likely to be affected by hate crimes, but why is that not discussed?
13. People need to stop telling others or themselves that they're not going to make something of themselves in life. The biggest person that holds anyone from achieving something in their life is THEMSELF.
14. Racism is wrong & should be called out! All these cops in the George Floyd case SHOULD BE CHARGED WITH MURDER. But that doesn't mean most people in America as a whole are racists. That guy should of long been off the police force. All those police officers are vile people.
15. We do not need to be divided. We need to come together to make logical change. Most of us are caring people.
16. Destroying people's small businesses does not help anyone. Destroying property in already poor communities makes it harder for them to get ahead in life & takes a long time to rebuild.

I agree with just about everything you said honestly. I think we need to stop making this also a "white privilege" issue... I feel like white privilege is a sort of unconscious bias. The past couple days I've been reading on social media some black and hispanic people alike asking during this that their own people make a cultural change too to try to improve experience. A black college student was discussing how he is now viewed as "not being black enough" by his own family for having gone to college. Hispanics chimed in how they "insult their college" by going to college and furthering themselves and they don't think going for higher education should be deemed a "white" thing. We all discuss how racism is taught and I do 100% agree with that, but I think they also need to stop teaching their own forms of internalized racism. They should want their kids to grow. Poverty IS a cycle and it needs helped. I know how my mom was discussing where she grew up, WEST VIRGINIA. She said so many people there are on heroin or kill themselves because there's no way out of that poverty cycle there: the state lacks jobs and if you go to get an education you're seen as a backstabber to your family. And they're white... She said she isn't even totally upset over this as she acknowledges blacks have a plight, but she is upset they act like white people are so privileged and don't experience those ugly experiences of that either. I think these people in psychology and etc. who recognize the poverty cycle should be actively doing more about it... I sadly suck at research and stuff but my original college hopes was to go help poor and at risk communities actually receive mental health treatment. It's so sad we're such a grand country that cannot take care of our poor like we do... And I don't know how so many ignore the issues. They're glaring. I have an instructor I loved at a college I went to, white yes, and he discussed after getting his PHD in english his relationship with his mother has struggled because she doesn't understand him anymore and it isn't he doesn't love her, its just the big educational gap. And its sad that black, hispanics, and country folk basically have to be almost disowned by their families to experience the opportunities that come with good education. I absolutely believe racism and previous segregation play a part in the issue blacks are currently facing, but they also need to want to desegregate out of these communities too. The black people of today need to break the cycle too, of this internalized racism where they stay where they are believing they cannot do much else. We had a black president, it says miles to our accomplishments as a country. There's more representation of black people in media, on tv, in movies, etc. to try and show them LOOK, you don't have to stay here in the projects! And any little steps towards ALL PEOPLE OF ALL RACES working together to accomplish breaking external and internal racism is extremely positive. And most importantly:
this cop needs to be held truly accountable.

 

[ceecee]

side note I always feel the "not having a father figure" is SUCH a weird argument. I've never had a father in my life and I'm not doing these kinds of things. Life is a series of choices and circumstances.

Since they can't use "black rioters without fathers", they'll have to come up with something else here.

St. Paul man arrested for burning down of Minneapolis police precinct

Antifa supersoilder maybe lol.

 

[ceecee]

To put my cards on the table I think this mess basically ended the last argument for western style multiculturalism in my part of the world. This was generally seen as bad idea even before this and now the idea will further loose the ground. Especially due to quite strong turn towards the right and big government.

Dunno man, you might have an influx of incredibly fragile American reactionary conservatives coming to a Visegrad countries near you.

Fleeing The Collapsing Imperium | The American Conservative

Of course Rod Dreher is a Opus Dei psychopath, which explains many of his insane views on other people and how much he and people like him encounter imaginary oppression at every turn.

I think it would be super cool to take a bunch of right wing reactionaries to one of four countries where they have never been, don't speak the languages and see how much their American nationalism is entertained there.

 

[Cupcakemonster]

I agree with just about everything you said honestly. I think we need to stop making this also a "white privilege" issue... I feel like white privilege is a sort of unconscious bias. The past couple days I've been reading on social media some black and hispanic people alike asking during this that their own people make a cultural change too to try to improve experience. A black college student was discussing how he is now viewed as "not being black enough" by his own family for having gone to college. Hispanics chimed in how they "insult their college" by going to college and furthering themselves and they don't think going for higher education should be deemed a "white" thing. We all discuss how racism is taught and I do 100% agree with that, but I think they also need to stop teaching their own forms of internalized racism. They should want their kids to grow. Poverty IS a cycle and it needs helped. I know how my mom was discussing where she grew up, WEST VIRGINIA. She said so many people there are on heroin or kill themselves because there's no way out of that poverty cycle there: the state lacks jobs and if you go to get an education you're seen as a backstabber to your family. And they're white... She said she isn't even totally upset over this as she acknowledges blacks have a plight, but she is upset they act like white people are so privileged and don't experience those ugly experiences of that either. I think these people in psychology and etc. who recognize the poverty cycle should be actively doing more about it... I sadly suck at research and stuff but my original college hopes was to go help poor and at risk communities actually receive mental health treatment. It's so sad we're such a grand country that cannot take care of our poor like we do... And I don't know how so many ignore the issues. They're glaring. I have an instructor I loved at a college I went to, white yes, and he discussed after getting his PHD in english his relationship with his mother has struggled because she doesn't understand him anymore and it isn't he doesn't love her, its just the big educational gap. And its sad that black, hispanics, and country folk basically have to be almost disowned by their families to experience the opportunities that come with good education. I absolutely believe racism and previous segregation play a part in the issue blacks are currently facing, but they also need to want to desegregate out of these communities too. The black people of today need to break the cycle too, of this internalized racism where they stay where they are believing they cannot do much else. We had a black president, it says miles to our accomplishments as a country. There's more representation of black people in media, on tv, in movies, etc. to try and show them LOOK, you don't have to stay here in the projects! And any little steps towards ALL PEOPLE OF ALL RACES working together to accomplish breaking external and internal racism is extremely positive. And most importantly:
this cop needs to be held truly accountable.

Yes. Some people when I mention do socioeconomics play a role, & are all white people privileged they try to tell me that it has nothing to do with money & all white people have life better. I see it like you said. The problem is people need to be encouraged & helped to break the cycle of poverty.

Jewish people experience a lot of hate crimes, but that's not discussed because they generally earn good money & are well educated. The same goes for Asian people who are never discussed because they're actually OUT PERFORMING white people.

Yes, there's still a tiny, small number of people who think badly of someone based on their race. But I believe there's MORE people that would give anyone a chance at a job or whatever regardless of something about their looks that they cannot change.

People need to as a whole come up with better logical solutions which will give better results. Parenting plays a part. Community outreach plays a part. Education plays a part. Reducing or getting rid of nonviolent offenses to keep people out of the legal system plays a part. We need to work together towards a common goal, instead of talking past each other.

 

[anticlimatic]

side note I always feel the "not having a father figure" is SUCH a weird argument. I've never had a father in my life and I'm not doing these kinds of things. Life is a series of choices and circumstances.

It isn't a weird argument at all if you look at the statistics on crime, poverty, and mental health effects of being raised in single parent homes without a father. Particularly for men, particularly in minority communities.

Father-Absent Homes: Implications for Criminal Justice and Mental Health Professionals

I don't like bringing it to debates because it's kind of cruel and it isn't usually something anyone can do anything about. Sometimes we can though. I had a Native American bully target me in middle school once and I hated him for quite a while, then one day he randomly asked me if I had a dad- I think he meant to be teasing me somehow with that question but I immediately saw him in a different light, forgave him for the way he treated me, and we became friends. He grew into a kind and loyal adult, despite not having a father, so despite the statistics there is always hope, and awareness of the statistics can help society be more compassionate towards people when they act out.

 

[Red Memories]

I know this isn't totally "political" but I was doing my Bible study this morning and fell upon this verse in Hebrews:
"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by which we draw nigh under God."

and I realize this pertains to Christian law, how the Jewish laws of sacrifice and etc. did not completely heal everything but it laid the groundwork for this in fact to happen. Much of the Bible can be brought into context for living life now and I just felt perhaps it is a perspective to what is happening right now.

Nothing we come up with right now will be perfect, or free of error, but any small change made now will create hope for BETTER options, until we reach that final solution. Nothing is immediate and these changes occurring take time but the hope of a better tomorrow can make this change. Ultimately, almost every person wants to see a better world, a better future for people of any and all races, we want equality and compassion. If we do little things every day, even just acknowledging the importance of issues, educating, etc. tomorrow can be better by the groundwork made. So regardless of political identities and etc. let's work together for actual positive change and creating the groundwork for a better tomorrow for ALL, to create a foundation of healing and compassion.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Dunno man, you might have an influx of incredibly fragile American reactionary conservatives coming to a Visegrad countries near you.

Fleeing The Collapsing Imperium | The American Conservative

Of course Rod Dreher is a Opus Dei psychopath, which explains many of his insane views on other people and how much he and people like him encounter imaginary oppression at every turn.

I think it would be super cool to take a bunch of right wing reactionaries to one of four countries where they have never been, don't speak the languages and see how much their American nationalism is entertained there.

Funny you mention this. Because there are days when I like to watch "internet debates" between our local people and our vocal part of diaspora that is born in the west. So the talking points are often going somewhere like this:


Diaspora: You are not the right wing! You live in a fantasy that nowhere in the world stands ! The state shouldn't be taking care of anyone ! This is Marxism!
Locals: Whatever rocks your boat man.



Basically right wing only means that you are loyal to tradition but no where it says what those traditions actually are. However since American right thinks it has the right to define all definitions this is really the thorn in their eye. While here at this point you even have right wing politicians that in interviews say that they are for our local right wing values and that the market will not really be expanded if they are elected. Even the church is openly against having too much Capitalism and they request some basic protections for the workers. I mean if you are a real nationalist do you really want to sell your people and resources to the multi-nationals for peanuts ? Not really. Here right or left is more about social and traditional values, while in economy basically everyone is some kind of left wing (especially by American standards). This is exactly why EU is cracking as well since the definition of good economy doesn't have fully unified definition. To many of us EU is too far to the right in economic sense. Random or uncontrolled immigration is also seen more as Capitalistic Trojan horse since it disrupts power of workers and it makes them more expandable, since you can always get the new ones from the third world.



So yes, it would be interesting to bring those people here where the landscape is fundamentally different. Although if they are not in some super large numbers they will surely be assimilated pretty fast if they stay. As a matter of fact some governments in these parts plan to bring good chunk of the diaspora home for economic reasons. They don't want complete strangers while you get socialized healthcare, free college for the kids and place to stay where everyone has the same skin color as you and there are no guns at every corner. So for the first time US could indeed face the problem that most nations know for centuries: mass emigration. The current unrest and economy can only strengthen the appeal of taking this call and thus move back across the Atlantic. The not so far future could indeed brake many historical "conventions".

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

side note I always feel the "not having a father figure" is SUCH a weird argument. I've never had a father in my life and I'm not doing these kinds of things. Life is a series of choices and circumstances.

Obviously not all children of single parents will be drawn into crime and not all children from 2-parent homes will be law abiding citizens, but there is a strong correlation between the numbers for single parent homes and crime rates in most communities.

So from there we can look at how arcane drug laws and unfair sentencing guidelines have destroyed many communities by allowing large numbers of the people to become locked up over petty offenses (then often forced into more crime when the stain on their records prevents them from finding gainful employment).

It's irresponsible to overlook/downplay those statistics because as long as we do we'll never be able to adequately address the root causes.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

To put my cards on the table I think this mess basically ended the last argument for western style multiculturalism in my part of the world. This was generally seen as bad idea even before this and now the idea will further loose the ground. Especially due to quite strong turn towards the right and big government.

Multiculturalism isn't the problem, it's a set of very bad police policies and an increased push toward reactionary authoritarianism. It should be noted many of the problems affecting the black American community will eventually expand and affect whites and other groups similarly. The black community just happens to bear the brunt of it presently.

 

[Cupcakemonster]

Also...

Why would chokeholds not already be outlawed everywhere? Why would any state or department allow it? Besides it being an obvious dumb decision to ever choke someone, you don't know that person's medical history either. For one example, what if someone has asthma & goes into anaphylaxis? See this is what we need guys. Actual plausible solutions that at least 99% of us could get behind. BAN CHOKEHOLDS EVERYWHERE.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Multiculturalism isn't the problem, it's a set of very bad police policies and an increased push toward reactionary authoritarianism. It should be noted many of the problems affecting the black American community will eventually expand and affect whites and other groups similarly. The black community just happens to bear the brunt of it presently.

Perhaps but that wasn't really my point. My point is that all of this is god given for presenting US as failed state that lost track of reality. What can easily lead into geopolitical tectonic shifts. (as I already explained)