[Fi] The INTJ Fi Demand

[poppy]

Out of a bursting frustration, I have said those lines before to my parents, teammates, and anyone messing around with the efficiency.

I might as well paste a "I agree with Poppy" quote in my signature now.

I'd be saying "I agree with Lethe" but I happen to get to a lot of topics first

Somehow I think thescientist would agree: she writes how she feels her ENFP co-worker should 'man up' and cut the BS with some honesty for once.

I wonder...how offensive do people find comments like these? I'm curious just how bad Fi acting out is, on average. I mean, we do essentially invalidate the whims and feelings of those we say them to...or does it just make us look ridiculous/silly/like slavedrivers?

 

[Athenian200]

Immeasurably!

Of course there are exceptions, but I find it easier on average to associate with men as they're more frequently conditioned/encouraged to possess traits I prefer in friends

Really? What do you find easier about getting along with men?

 

[Lethe]

I'd be saying "I agree with Lethe" but I happen to get to a lot of topics first

And thanks for saving everyone else's time and energy! :hi:

I wonder...how offensive do people find comments like these? I'm curious just how bad Fi acting out is, on average. I mean, we do essentially invalidate the whims and feelings of those we say them to...or does it just make us look ridiculous/silly/like slavedrivers?

They'd probably think we're self-righteous pricks with a permanent stick up our arse.

You know, typical feedback.

 

[Athenian200]

They'd probably think we're self-righteous pricks with a permanent stick up our arse.

You know, typical feedback.

Trust me, what they think about Te isn't much better. It can easily make people think, "Wow, what a condescending, arrogant person! They think that calm aura and unruffled choice of words hides their lack of humility? It's so obvious they think they're above this situation. They should just leave us alone if they feel that way, let people who care handle it. Who do they think they are, shoving their nose into something they don't really care about in the first place? No one asked them to step in and handle things, they should just mind their own business if that's how they feel."

I do have to admit that when I encounter TJs in a group, this is often how I feel towards them (though I'd never say it).

 

[Lethe]

Trust me, what they think about Te isn't much better. It can easily make people think, "Wow, what a condescending, arrogant person! They think that calm aura and unruffled choice of words hides their lack of humility? It's so obvious they think they're above this situation. They should just leave us alone if they feel that way, let people who care handle it. Who do they think they are, shoving their nose into something they don't really care about in the first place? No one asked them to step in and handle things, they should just mind their own business if that's how they feel."

I do have to admit that when I encounter TJs in a group, this is often how I feel towards them (though I'd never say it).

Really? That's fairly generous compared to what I've heard. (Seriously.)

The main concern would be getting the TJ to care about what the others think. Just mention the word 'productive' (if they're working with you) and that should set things in order. They can't ignore those opinions when they need the cooperation of other people.

Really? What do you find easier about getting along with men?

The less-convoluted social etiquette.

And if you did something wrong, they'll tell you upfront and figuratively punch you in the face for it. You always know where you stand with them, and the location of their emotional minefields.

With women, in general, you have to 'figure' it out. If you don't, then enjoy being back-stabbed in a hundred different directions. Oh, and confrontations are a major no-no.

/50% sarcasm, 50% truth.

 

[nonsequitur]

I think I finally understand what was going on here:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/academics-careers/20799-i-going-change-world-3.html#post810815

At first I was all "WTF INTJs can't be idealistic and have morals?" but now I see that it's a different emphasis on what, exactly, is moral. The Fe/Fi divide seems huge. I'll be the first to admit that my Fe is withered away, shriveled up. But I have a strong tertiary Fi that affects everything that I do.

I'd say that things like holding the door open for others (I'm female, so it's not "expected" of me) and offering to buy coffee are things that I do not to be "nice", but because it would be gracious and comes in line with my belief that I should do what I can do. But I justify it saying that "it's along the way, and it would be more efficient".

Similarly, my need to help people comes out of my philosophy that the world is intrinsically meaningless, so (to quote Angel) "if nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do". It may be nihilistic but it sure is moral. What comes out of it isn't the effect on others, but that you personally tried your best.

I don't judge people based on what others expect of them. I judge them based on what I personally expect. I expect my students to turn up to tutorials if they have questions, hand in their reports on time and to come into class prepared. That, to me, is what makes a "good" student. I don't care if they're friendly or polite. If they fail in meeting my expectations, I automatically extrapolate that to mean that they're lazy, don't care about learning, and/or are stupid as trolls. Pretty black/white morality, and definitely a facet of my tertiary Fi. To me, the worst assessment that I could give someone is "lacks professionalism and integrity" (which more or less is the same thing to me).

As such, my expectations of myself are pretty high. Not because I'm afraid of what others will think of me, but because of what I'd think of myself.

 

[Amargith]

I'm guilty of telling people things like "man up!" (a little odd coming from a female, I admit, but it conveys the right idea) or "stop being such a drama queen!".

That makes sense in the case of Fi prejudice acting under Te desire for efficiency As in, "I don't have time for your moral or personal dilemmas right now".

Question..I have this tendency when I use Te myself, and it drives me bonkers. My Fi kinda demands from me to give people the benefit of the doubt and give them the time they need to express themselves, before I judge them. But when pressured and doing something in Te mode, I tend to get this reaction extremely quickly.

You seem to really consider this a default mode. How do you experience it? I personally hate feeling like that and would do anything to avoid it, which..basically means not using Te or disengaging it when talking to people. But how do you handle this, since Te is more present than Fi?

The less-convoluted social etiquette.

And if you did something wrong, they'll tell you upfront and figuratively punch you in the face for it. You always know where you stand with them, and location of the emotional minefields.

With women, in general, you have to 'figure' it out. If you don't, then enjoy being back-stabbed in a hundred different directions. Oh, and confrontations are a major no-no.

/50% sarcasm, 50% truth.

Agreed

 

[Athenian200]

Really? That's fairly generous compared to what I've heard. (Seriously.)

The main concern would be getting the TJ to care about what the others think. Just mention the word 'productive' (if they're working with you) and that should set things in order. They can't ignore those opinions when they need the cooperation of other people.

I'll try that next time... but I'm not good with confronting people I'm not close to, and might not be able to do that. I usually just swallow it rather than say anything. I'm not willing to withdraw my cooperation and make a scene just because I don't appreciate their behavior, even if I resent what they're doing.

After all, I am a J, and I'm willing to be silent in order to get the project over with as quickly as possible, even if I end up resenting the people I'm working with, and never wanting to work with them again in the process.

The less-convoluted social etiquette.

And if you did something wrong, they'll tell you upfront and figuratively punch you in the face for it. You always know where you stand with them, and location of the emotional minefields.

With women, in general, you have to 'figure' it out. If you don't, then enjoy being back-stabbed in a hundred different directions. Oh, and confrontations are a major no-no.

I haven't noticed that women use convoluted social etiquette... maybe they just do it with each other, and I haven't noticed because I haven't really been involved in their groups, thus they had no expectations of me? Hmm... I'm going to have to watch for that.

Well, I do hate confrontation, so that seems compassionate enough. That's one good thing about women. The backstabbing thing sounds kind of cruel, though... I mean, they should try to give you the benefit of the doubt when you don't see that you're doing something wrong. You could just have different values, or be from another part of the country where they don't have the same expectations and thus be unaware of how you're being perceived. They should put some effort into making you see what you're doing before hurting you over it.

Jumping to conclusions about people and acting on them as if they were true isn't very nice or fair. But I suppose everyone does it once in a while... at least I hope so, otherwise that makes me an exceptionally bad person, because I've done that before.

 

[Lethe]

Question..I have this tendency when I use Te myself, and it drives me bonkers. My Fi kinda demands from me to give people the benefit of the doubt and give them the time they need to express themselves, before I judge them. But when pressured and doing something in Te mode, I tend to get this reaction extremely quickly.

You seem to really consider this a default mode. How do you experience it? I personally hate feeling like that and would do anything to avoid it, which..basically means not using Te or disengaging it when talking to people. But how do you handle this, since Te is more present than Fi?

Bolded: I know exactly how that goes.

To avoid the passionate response, I would make their idle wishy-washiness and my personal discomfort a part of the plan. If I could mentally prepare myself beforehand, I am less likely to respond in such anger.

"We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation." - Francois De La Rochefoucauld

Francois' right in this situation. Overall, I frequently calculate and control my emotions because I absolutely do not want them to interfere with the ultimate purpose. I've already decided what type of feelings (while choosing my goals) I would allow when I implement them.

 

[Amargith]

Bolded: I know exactly how that goes.

To avoid the passionate response, I would make their idle wishy-washiness and my personal discomfort a part of the plan. If I could mentally prepare myself beforehand, I am less likely to respond in such anger.

"We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation." - Francois De La Rochefoucauld

Francois' right in this situation.

Makes sense...I have this mostly when I'm at work. So lately, I've been going into work, consciously aware of the fact that I *will* be interrupted and I cannot get annoyed at hte fact that I dunno how long their intermezzo will keep me from my work and therefore I might not finish it. When my collegues do come and bug me, I try to switch over to Fe....and back again when I'm alone. Kinda exhausting, but it keeps that trigger from going off. As you said, it's the worst when it's unexpected.

I have one collegue who..helps me out but sometimes to do so she needs my computer. And she has a tendency to steal the thing when I'm two seconds away from my desk when I least expect it. And I *know* she's helping me, but the fact that she took over my desk makes me stand around and get worked up coz I cannot do anything without that computer. Worse even when they use my phone coz they happen to be at my desk when they remember to make a call, and they literally block my workspace so I cannot continue



Anycase, sorry for the derail, back to the fascinating OP!

 

[Lethe]

Makes sense...I have this mostly when I'm at work. So lately, I've been going into work, consciously aware of the fact that I *will* be interrupted and I cannot get annoyed at hte fact that I dunno how long their intermezzo will keep me from my work and therefore I might not finish it. When my collegues do come and bug me, I try to switch over to Fe....and back again when I'm alone. Kinda exhausting, but it keeps that trigger from going off. As you said, it's the worst when it's unexpected.

I have one collegue who..helps me out but sometimes to do so she needs my computer. And she has a tendency to steal the thing when I'm two seconds away from my desk when I least expect it. And I *know* she's helping me, but the fact that she took over my desk makes me stand around and get worked up coz I cannot do anything without that computer. Worse even when they use my phone coz they happen to be at my desk when they remember to make a call, and they literally block my workspace so I cannot continue

Anycase, sorry for the derail, back to the fascinating OP!

How about telling them ahead of time where your limits are? When you're in Te mode, there's only so much you could do to avoid snapping back, because the attention is fixed on getting things done.

Then any frustration should be justified.

 

[poppy]

And thanks for saving everyone else's time and energy! :hi:
They'd probably think we're self-righteous pricks with a permanent stick up our arse.

You know, typical feedback.

The worst part is, I'm not the least bit bothered by being called a self righteous prick, or arrogant jerk or icy bitch or any of the following:

Trust me, what they think about Te isn't much better. It can easily make people think, "Wow, what a condescending, arrogant person! They think that calm aura and unruffled choice of words hides their lack of humility? It's so obvious they think they're above this situation. They should just leave us alone if they feel that way, let people who care handle it. Who do they think they are, shoving their nose into something they don't really care about in the first place? No one asked them to step in and handle things, they should just mind their own business if that's how they feel."

I do have to admit that when I encounter TJs in a group, this is often how I feel towards them (though I'd never say it).

I can't say I blame you. We're pretty insufferable from what I understand.

Really? What do you find easier about getting along with men?

I'm far less likely to accidentally offend them with my callousness. Also behaviors that I find irritating, like gushing and simpering and generally making a big deal out of everything, are generally not seen in men.

I'd say that things like holding the door open for others (I'm female, so it's not "expected" of me) and offering to buy coffee are things that I do not to be "nice", but because it would be gracious and comes in line with my belief that I should do what I can do. But I justify it saying that "it's along the way, and it would be more efficient".

You seem to really consider this a default mode. How do you experience it? I personally hate feeling like that and would do anything to avoid it, which..basically means not using Te or disengaging it when talking to people. But how do you handle this, since Te is more present than Fi?

Oh goodness. How do I use Te (Let me count the ways...)? To me Te feels like moving things along, getting things done (and boy do I love getting things done), pushing forward, progress, clarity. And yes, as my extroverted function it's very present and it's generally the way that I deal with the world Common side effects of Te: Being impatient with slow moving conversations/activities and having the desire to maim those people who try and trap you in such conversations/activities. High blood pressure. Giving up sleeping in favor of cleaning the entire house. I have to make a conscious effort to calm down and relax in situations where my Te is being stifled. Usually I just walk myself through things ("Ok, it's necessary to go over X rules or Y background information...in the mean time, there's a spider up there in the corner...oooh how interesting...)

 

[Amargith]

Trust me, they already know..I tend to have things like that written on my face, it's not like I could hide it. And the thing that my collegue helps me out with, I now took away from her and do myself (I'm fairly new at the firm), so she has no reason to steal my pc anymore..but she very much knew I was annoyed whenever she did that and tried to do it as fast as possible

I also have the same response to unexpected difficulties when in Te mode..'This is not the way this is supposed to go!!!'

And somehow, my own INTJ just sighs, adjusts and conquers the obstacle calmly, while I just get worked up as it puts me behind schedule for god only knows how long and stresses me that I won't get my day's schedule done that day. I so hate using Te sometimes!

 

[Lethe]

Trust me, they already know..I tend to have things like that written on my face, it's not like I could hide it. And the thing that my collegue helps me out with, I now took away from her and do myself (I'm fairly new at the firm), so she has no reason to steal my pc anymore..but she very much knew I was annoyed whenever she did that and tried to do it as fast as possible

I also have the same response to unexpected difficulties when in Te mode..'This is not the way this is supposed to go!!!'

And somehow, my own INTJ just sighs, adjusts and conquers the obstacle calmly, while I just get worked up as it puts me behind schedule and stresses me that I won't get my day's schedule done that day. I so hate using Te sometimes!

If they knew, then the unexpected anger should be the last of my priorities.

Could you set up times where your colleagues could contact you? Or instead of interrupting you, they could drop something off at the door?

The best way to get a handle on Te is to include your Fi and other unexpected difficulties in it. Once everything's incorporated, your extroverted thinking side is free to barge right through the tasks unrestrained. Anything standing outside of the Te will unfortunately be crushed into smithereens. It's not exactly the 'peace-making' function.

That's how your INTJ "sighs, adjusts and conquers the obstacle calmly".

The worst part is, I'm not the least bit bothered by being called a self righteous prick, or arrogant jerk or icy bitch or any of the following

For the worst part, it can damage personal relationships. For the best part, someone needs to get the job done without being sidetracked by a little criticism.

Common side effects of Te: Being impatient with slow moving conversations/activities and having the desire to maim those people who try and trap you in such conversations/activities. High blood pressure. Giving up sleeping in favor of cleaning the entire house.

All true.

If I compare my Te to Ni, the Ni's a complete space-cadet.

 

[Athenian200]

The worst part is, I'm not the least bit bothered by being called a self righteous prick, or arrogant jerk or icy bitch or any of the following:

I can't say I blame you. We're pretty insufferable from what I understand.

People like you almost make me want to say, "What does it take to get a reaction out of you, anyway? Do I have to threaten or harm you?! How am I supposed to get you to feel what I'm feeling? This is frustrating."

It's like that same sense of futility I get from getting mad at my computer. No matter how frustrated I get with it, it just sits there apathetically and continues processing things in the same way that angered me in the first place (renewing my frustration), unless I calm down and deal with it in a logical way. TJs aren't quite THAT bad, but there are definitely some parallels.

Yet I find myself intrigued enough by both TJs and computers that I keep on trying to understand them.

I'm far less likely to accidentally offend them with my callousness. Also behaviors that I find irritating, like gushing and simpering and generally making a big deal out of everything, are generally not seen in men.

Wow. Women do all that? I think maybe that's just where you live... I've never seen them do that. It seems like a lot of men see them doing that, too, though... hmm.

 

[nonsequitur]

People like you almost make me want to say, "What does it take to get a reaction out of you, anyway? Do I have to threaten or harm you?! How am I supposed to get you to feel what I'm feeling? This is frustrating."

It's like that same sense of futility I get from getting mad at my computer. No matter how frustrated I get with it, it just sits there apathetically and continues processing things in the same way that angered me in the first place (renewing my frustration), unless I calm down and deal with it in a logical way. TJs aren't quite THAT bad, but there are definitely some parallels.

No, threatening harm wouldn't get much of a reaction. But attack people we care about, and that's a different story. Or attacking our competence. It's ok to be called an arrogant bitch as long as things get done and the project runs smoothly. That, after all, is the priority. Sabotaging a project will definitely get a reaction too.

 

[Athenian200]

No, threatening harm wouldn't get much of a reaction. But attack people we care about, and that's a different story. Or attacking our competence. It's ok to be called an arrogant bitch as long as things get done and the project runs smoothly. That, after all, is the priority. Sabotaging a project will definitely get a reaction too.

Sigh. I'd be tempted to sabotage the project, but I usually want it done as much as you do if I'm bothering to be involved at all, which means I'd probably swallow it. And chances are that I wouldn't be in a position to attack your competence.

This is why I hate TJs so much. They're not flawed in enough ways that I can attack them without seeming unreasonable, so I'm forced to tolerate their behavior until they make a mistake... which can take a while.

Of course, it's not a problem if they don't happen to do anything that gets on my nerves, though... and sometimes I'm lucky enough that they don't strike any nerves that day.

 

[nonsequitur]

Sigh. I'd be tempted to sabotage the project, but I usually want it done as much as you do if I'm bothering to be involved at all, which means I'd probably swallow it. And chances are that I wouldn't be in a position to attack your competence.

This is why I hate TJs so much. They're not flawed in enough ways that I can attack them without seeming unreasonable, so I'm forced to tolerate their behavior until they make a mistake... which can take a while.

Just curious. Are you more bothered by the fact that we don't really care what others think of us? Or specifically by what we say?

I don't understand why someone would even think about sabotaging a project, or attacking people who are getting things done, or watch for someone's mistakes. It seems so counter-productive and such a waste of energy.

 

[Athenian200]

Just curious. Are you more bothered by the fact that we don't really care what others think of us? Or specifically by what we say?

Well, to some extent. But only when I'm frustrated. If you don't frustrate me, I probably won't care that you don't care what others think of you. It really creates communication problems if you frustrate me and I can't make you feel anything about it, though.

I don't understand why someone would even think about sabotaging a project, or attacking people who are getting things done, or watch for someone's mistakes. It seems so counter-productive and such a waste of energy.

You're right... that's why I prefer to work with people who I'm compatible with, rather than ones who make me want to act that way. But ultimately, I probably wouldn't actually do that even if tempted unless I didn't care about the project anyway, and in that case I'd probably just not be involved.

 

[Amargith]

If they knew, then the unexpected anger should be the last of my priorities.

Could you set up times where your colleagues could contact you? Or instead of interrupting you, they could drop something off at the door?

The best way to get a handle on Te is to include your Fi and other unexpected difficulties in it. Once everything's incorporated, your extroverted thinking side is free to barge right through the tasks unrestrained. Anything standing outside of the Te will unfortunately be crushed into smithereens. It's not exactly the 'peace-making' function.

That's how your INTJ "sighs, adjusts and conquers the obstacle calmly".

No, my work is to welcome clients and help out the consultants. When none of them need me, then I have a serious amount of administration to get through. So they come first. They're right to disturb me in my work, as it *is* my job first and foremost to organize their schedules and make their day run smoothly. Just annoying when I'm completely focussed on a task and I get interrupted 4 times in 15 minutes. Hence I go for Fe now and switch from Te to Fe when they come in, even before they've asked my attention. (I do a job designed for an ESFJ *sigh*)


How do you combine Te and Fi though? Fi demands for time to appreciate things as they are whereas Te just wants to get it done already. Especially if it's a task that I don't exactly enjoy, I can totally hate everything that prolongs it. And the same happens if there is in fact a deadline. I can combine the two fine when Fi is allowed to lead and there is no deadline though.