[ENFP] The ENFP Te Demand

[Lady_X]

weirdo!

 

[Wonkavision]

ENFP rage is part of this story somehow too. Seems to me the rage is long repressed bad feeling that didn't have anything in the world change for it.

I don't know about other ENFPs, but I'm torn between the desire to adapt to the world as it is and the desire to change it for the better.

My own personal anger issues are directly related to this struggle.

Meanwhile, in another part of town, Doctor Wonka is leading a herd of stray ENFPs toward their destiny. This mind has boggled beyond repair at such a congregation of innocents abroad nosing their way into the trap. Oh woe, the harem girls of Riyadh grow daily in number, and surely in beauty. For The Wonk knows his stuff, no doubt about it.

Ha ha! I'm not sure exactly what this means, but I'm somehow flattered by it.

 

[Lady_X]

weirdo!

okay...i'm done.

 

[Thalassa]

This is a speculation. And it goes a little something like this:

The tertiary function--relief--we turn to it to find energy for and the recharging of whatever our higher functions are about. (Also we turn to it to let the pressure out of the demands of our higher functions, but that's another story.) And being relatively underdeveloped and less conscious than the higher functions, the relief function produces simple-minded demands about how things ought to be.

Take INTJs for instance. I know that having Fi under Te tends us toward simple-minded demands that other people have their moral compass on straight. "You will treat me with respect and you will know what respect is!"--that kind of thing. Vocalising about moral requirements. "You're going the wrong way! You're making the wrong choice! What do you really want!" And so on. It's odd, but it's true. "Everything will go better if the feeling is right, or I'm outta here!" If you look around the forum, you can see INTJs doing it all over the place.

So I have come to wonder, what does having Te under Fi do in ENFPs? Well, it's Te, so it'll be something about how the world will be organised; and it's in service of Ne/Fi, so...

The ENFP Te demand: "the world will be organised in such a way that people can interact and be at risk because I need them to take risks."

("And I'll be really sorry if you get hurt, but it's not my fault if you do get hurt because that's just the way the world is, you have to be responsible for yourself.")


Like I say, the demands imposed by the relief function are relatively simple-minded, and looked at in isolation, they sound awful, but the higher functions are there to take up the slack and balance out the awfulness. Like for example, ENFPs having Ne/Fi will be able to say, yeah, people are at risk, but I'm sympathetic and empathetic and I can be trusted not to hurt you. INTJs back up their Fi demand by saying, I will stand fast to my moral criterion and meanwhile I'll be organising the shit out of everything else so if you know what you want, you don't have to worry about me not knowing about everything else.


This is a first draft, it's a nice draft, but I don't know if it's a true draft. A lot of the claims might be wrong in expression and might need some whittlin'. What say you?

Easy. Te under Ne/Fi? The world will be organized on a global scale to live in fairness, mercy, sharing, caring, etc. And don't forget organizing Montessori schools so that more "creative minded" people have an equal opportunity for an education that suits their gifts.

Te under Ne/Fi sounds like the implementation of lovingly authoritarian global-scale liberal-type government to me. Is it just me?

 

[Wonkavision]

Easy. Te under Ne/Fi? The world will be organized on a global scale to live in fairness, mercy, sharing, caring, etc.

That sounds creepy.

Too oppressive and invasive.

My Fi would never support it.

And don't forget organizing Montessori schools so that more "creative minded" people have an equal opportunity for an education that suits their gifts.

That sounds like an awesome use of Te under Ne/Fi.

My Fi would support that.

Te under Ne/Fi sounds like the implementation of lovingly authoritarian global-scale liberal-type government to me. Is it just me?

Again, very creepy. My Fi would not support it.

I know you're mostly joking though, and you're not necessarily saying it's a good idea.

 

[Thalassa]

That sounds creepy.




That sounds like an awesome use of Te under Ne/Fi.

My Fi would support that.



Again, very creepy. My Fi would not support it.

Yeah, it's supposed to sound creepy. I kind of think of Te as a creepy function (hence authoritarian), and applying it to Ne (hence global and liberal) and Fi (hence sharing, caring, fairness, mercy, lovingly), that's what I personally come up with.

 

[Wonkavision]

Yeah, it's supposed to sound creepy. I kind of think of Te as a creepy function (hence authoritarian), and applying it to Ne (hence global and liberal) and Fi (hence sharing, caring, fairness, mercy, lovingly), that's what I personally come up with.

Yeah, I think it's healthy for ENFPs to be wary of Te.

It's an ugly extra appendage.

And it really isn't consistent with our overall approach to life.

The best we can do is accept that it's part of us and make sure to keep it in check.

 

[Kalach]

Like Fi in an INTJ?

Yes, I say, yes! Excise these useless temptations to remorse! The Mastermind will be unleashed truly only when the pesky conscience is stilled!

 

[Amargith]

Wonka, awesome explanations, I like.

Kalach, do give us a comparison to INTJs Fi in third position. It would be fascinating to put your Te next to ours and likewise for Fi



I was also wondering... I've noticed that you're right, Wonka, on the whole motivation thing. In order to be motivated, either Ne or Fi has to be involved, and the things that are addictive to me ask for both functions (such as this forum *sigh*). I can also very much enjoy Te, especially when paired with Fi (with Ne I tire quickly). However, I've also found that the same is true for, for instance Se. If I pair the remaining functions with Fi, I find them usable, much like Te. So for me it doesn't really show that Te is my third function in that. For example, I've recently started dancing again, because the vids I bought were Fi inspired. However dancing itself, is Se, right? And my Se is my worst function, both according to theory and according to tests.

 

[Heart&Brain]

Wonka, awesome explanations, I like.

Kalach, do give us a comparison to INTJs Fi in third position. It would be fascinating to put your Te next to ours and likewise for Fi

I guess that as a stronger function, both Fi and Te will have the elegance, freedom and flexibility that comes with any mastery. While less virtuosity will feel or appear more tense, one-dimensional and naive. Hence Kalach's idea about the tertiary often being expressed by a demand: demanding a crutch of sorts, a law or a guarantee that will (seemingly) make it less risky to use?

I mean, my Te may demand elementary logic consistency of concepts (or else big Fi will despise them with a passion), while Kalach is specialised in the subtleties of paralogic consistency! His Fi may demand set moral rules to be spelled out and obeyed (or else big Te will tell them who's the boss), while I am specialised in immanent ethics as experimenting with optimal good use of mutual powers to affect and be affected.
Something like that: the demanding mode of the tertiary is an attempt to soothe ourselves before daring to let the child out to play and practice its still somewhat limited skills?

Could an added value be, that the relative simplicity of tertiary use will force the more eloquent user to come back to basics, so to speak. I don't know if the proverb exists in other languages, but in Danish we say that "From children and drunken people will you hear the truth!" Tertiary child naiveté has an ability to cut through the arrogance of mastery perhaps? I know that in the company of INTJs I feel compelled to cut any crap and be my self, sometimes more so than I might normally have wanted to. But it could be the x-ray quality of introverted intuition doing that. INTJs - do ENFPs do something similar to you? Can the encounter with simplistic Te be like, I don't know... refreshing or something? Or just annoying? :rolli:

I was also wondering... I've noticed that you're right, Wonka, on the whole motivation thing. In order to be motivated, either Ne or Fi has to be involved, and the things that are addictive to me ask for both functions (such as this forum *sigh*). I can also very much enjoy Te, especially when paired with Fi (with Ne I tire quickly). However, I've also found that the same is true for, for instance Se. If I pair the remaining functions with Fi, I find them usable, much like Te. So for me it doesn't really show that Te is my third function in that. For example, I've recently started dancing again, because the vids I bought were Fi inspired. However dancing itself, is Se, right? And my Se is my worst function, both according to theory and according to tests.

I guess I'm all for functional harmony, meaning that I like to think that the four main functions can be happily integrated in our personalities. Not with the same frequency and authority of course, but not entangled in internal psychological obstruction either. What - who said stereotypical ENFP idealism?
So I'm quite eager to up my skills at Te. And I agree, Fi needs to be developed and in charge for it to really be fruitful. As it happens, I work with philosophy and debate where Te is an asset. And it's also true that I end up unsatisfied and exhausted if I forget the overall Ne-Fi intentions while going into now-I'll-tell-you-what's-real-so-stop-your-nonsense killermode. But at the service of noble Ne-Fi goals I enjoy its toughness and clarity.

The last year or so I'm even beginning to see something enjoyable in inferior Si when I took up tapdancing! Introverted sensing, percieving and repeating detailed movements, obeying orders with absolutely no room for distracting Ne-associations. Being the antithesis to Ne, using Si appears to be the only thing that can shut the Ne-bitch up. Just for an hour, and I'd go nuts if I had to live under a constant Si-regime, but in that hour my head is forced out of the clouds and oh! it's a bliss! :moonwalk:

 

[PeaceBaby]

Te has ruled my life for a long time Wonka - it's hard to let go... but I've only been rigid and controlling of myself, not of others.

You said: "If we don't keep our inferior Te in check, we will end up being rigid, manipulative, untrustworthy, unstable, and, ultimately, untrue to ourselves."

The only part of that sentence I agree with is the "untrue to ourselves" part. Fi would never permit the other obstructive personality qualities you mention.

What about my other post too - what are your thoughts there?

 

[Moiety]

Did Myers or Briggs ever talk about personal function order as it pertains to the dominant,secondary,tertiary and inferior roles? Any other author?

The validity of most of what has been said kind of depends on how well individual function order fits with all of this, in my opinion.

 

[PeaceBaby]

The validity of most of what has been said kind of depends on how well individual function order fits with all of this, in my opinion.

Which relates back to my earlier post in this thread: when function order doesn't follow the typical pattern, how relevant is the discussion? What does it actually reveal?

 

[Wonkavision]

Te has ruled my life for a long time Wonka - it's hard to let go... but I've only been rigid and controlling of myself, not of others.

If you're an NFP, then being ruled by Te would be an unhealthy or undesirable state, wouldn't it?

And inferior Te is actually about controlling others, not controlling yourself.

Besides, how can you be an NFP who prefers Te?

I really don't understand this, but it seems like there are many people who aspire to be like their opposite types.

You said: "If we don't keep our inferior Te in check, we will end up being rigid, manipulative, untrustworthy, unstable, and, ultimately, untrue to ourselves."


The only part of that sentence I agree with is the "untrue to ourselves" part. Fi would never permit the other obstructive personality qualities you mention.

I agree that Fi normally prevents the NFP from becoming rigid, manipulative, etc.---that's why I'm advocating that NFPs strengthen Fi instead of inferior Te.

Why would you want to strenghten a weaker function that is actively competing against your stronger functions?

That seems like self-sabotage.

And sometimes, unfortunately, Te does overthrow Fi in NFPs.

You've never seen an NFP acting rigid, manipulative, etc.?

You've never done it yourself?

What would people you know say about that?


I think it does happen. I've seen it, and I've done it.

Again--that's why I emphasize the importance of keeping inferior Te in check.

What about my other post too - what are your thoughts there?

You mean the ones about your own cognitive functions?

My opinion on cognitive functions tests are basically this:

I think the results are largely affected by the state you're in at the time you take the test.

It's more helpful to consider the basic theory, rather than specific results of a test.

The purpose of cognitive functions theory is to explain how functions normally work in a particular type.

All kinds of exceptions may happen from time to time, but those specifics are not as useful as understanding how cognitive functions normally work.

It comes down to a very simple principle: Be yourself.

Your Dominant and Secondary functions are sufficient.

The rest will fall in line if you strengthen the marriage between the top two.

If you consistently try to be more like another type, you will stress yourself out, confuse the hell out of people, look like a distorted version of yourself, and ultimately, lose valuable time and energy that would have been better spent being yourself.

I really can't emphasize this enough, and I strongly recommend reading Personality Type:An Owner's Manual by Lenore Thomson, for more on this subject.

She even covers the "left over" functions, which is great.

 

[sculpting]

This is what is commonly referred to as "blowing up", "spazzing out", "going beserk", "ranting", "raging", etc.--and once an ENFP is in the grip of inferior functions---no matter how accurate or logical his arguments are---his position is totally overshadowed by the extreme and dysfunctional behavior.

Yes I would argue this is Te being used on impulse defensively. I can see this two ways-one within seconds to mintes of the "injury/insult" to feelings, or a more long term version which is ranting and bitching.

In fact, I don't understand why an ENFP would want to consciously use Te--except that it temporarily gives an ENFP a sense of control over the environment, or provides a defense against a perceived attack.

But ultimately ENFPs do not desire to control their environment or to be overly defensive.

They want to accept and adapt to the environment with spontaneous warmth and openness.

When ENFPs use Te unconsciously, it looks cold, rigid, and inflexible.

Combined with Ne it looks paranoid, and combined with the natural emotional expressiveness of ENFPs, it looks like an irrational "freak-out."

Interesting. If this was "normal" behavior would it be productive? Ie. if society had lots of folks who did this would it be considered outside of the norm? If you can tone down the expressive nature of the response-exert more control over the expression-can it be used productively?

What if they use Te consciously? I have found that I can often mirror strong Te users effectively and very much downplay the Ne component. This takes effort but it a very effective way to interact with them-especially EXTJs. I can go head to head with ENTJs in a highly confrontational way and produce results.

I have two other male enfp strong Te users who seem to this effectively as well. It's fun to play with them as we make eye contact and we "almost" wink. It is like we are all in on the game.

What if I do want to control my localized enviornment? Granted it is Fi driven and makes some assumptions-but by exerting control over others, I can make the workplace more productive, more successful, and in the end increase happiness-or at least decrease unhappiness significantly. damned selfish Fi at work again...

Te usually does get developed in ENFPs as they get older.

But the more we develop skill with Te, the more we need to keep it in check with Fi.

Think about it----What's more dangerous than the ability to organize the environment without a sense of ethics?

That's called "manipulation", in the worst sense of the word, we can be guilty of that.

One use of Te looks like a calm, rational use of organization, logic, and system-building that people notice and respond to in a positive way.

It doesn't look cold and calculating, or insecure and over-the-top.

And it generally doesn't feel manipulative.
We're Ne/Fi, not Ne/Te.

If we don't keep our inferior Te in check, we will end up being rigid, manipulative, untrustworthy, unstable, and, ultimately, untrue to ourselves.

When our Ne and Fi are working together, we are at our most authentic and effective.

And that is what makes us ENFPs.

also interesting. I find that having the ability to understand structurally other's behavior-using Te-dissect out motives/thoughts/feelings using Ne-Fi can seem a little odd. It can make folks uneasy. I often feel internally cold, unemotive and distanced from other folks. It allows me to see the possibilities for manipulation or harm that understanding behavior could allow me to inflict. However Fi-even in it's puny state-still seems to serve as an anchor against acting on those thoughts. I often question my own ability to manipulate others. In the past I did this subconciously. Now I understand how to do it and it bothers me. (Just to clarify manipulate does not equal malevolance-just influence)

For me Te feels authentic. Maybe I have spent my whole life using it, so it feels more normal.

ENFP rage is part of this story somehow too. Seems to me the rage is long repressed bad feeling that didn't have anything in the world change for it.

ENFP rage is the symmetric version of the ENTP shrug. It is the Te backlash against an insult to an enfps feelings. The entps pull back into an Fe shell and shun the offender. An enfp comes out full frontal assult against an offender. (reason 4,374 why the entp/enfp relationship is doomed to fail)

This is an interesting topic all around. I can see internally how having a lot of Te can cause internal conflicts-guilt, too high of ideals, a sense of failure at not accomplishing those ideals. I can see the external features-the enfp rage, the bitchiness, the irritability.

But I can see a lot of productive things that get accomplished by Te as well. I am seeing too many older enfps who are using it very productively to blend into executive management. Nobody ever told them they couldnt do it. They just figured out how.

And yes-all kidding aside-I could see how NeTe with some Fi thrown in would take over the world with the goal of making it a better place.

 

[garbage]

Huh. I might have a personal example of this. Hear me out.

I can speak Te fairly easily, and I can organize and mobilize pretty well. But I pretty much stopped Te at "full throttle" somewhere down the line. It seems as though this happened once I had worked myself into a position where I had some desired amount of flexibility and could exercise creativity in my career.

I think I had effectively organized my external world to suit my natural preferences without realizing that I was doing so, working myself toward an environment suited for my priorities without even being completely conscious of what they were. The organization process, however, did involve a great deal of conscious thought.

And during my career, when my flexibility is threatened, I become inflexible. I stand my ground. I metaphorically kick and scream. I fight my situation and confront the world incessantly until I get it back--that is, until I've realigned my environment to match my priorities.

Does any of that resonate here?

 

[Wonkavision]

And yes-all kidding aside-I could see how NeTe with some Fi thrown in would take over the world with the goal of making it a better place.

Exactly.

But that's CREEPY, isn't it?

What kind of ENFP consciously wants to take over the world?

Not me.


I think healthy ENFP idealism would be driven by Dominant Ne/Auxilliary Fi -- motivating, encouraging, and inspiring people to see the possibilities of human progress.

It wouldn't be run by Dominant Ne/Tertiary Te -- coercing and manipulating people and systems in order to ensure that humans progress.


I think the "shadow self" is a real thing--and not to be taken lightly.

We don't want to deny the shadow self, because it will bite us in the ass when we least expect it.

But if we don't keep it in check we become a sick, distorted version of our opposite type.

That is a horrible thought, isn't it?

It's best to take that seriously, in my opinion.

Any ENFP who thinks they are using Te really effectively should ask someone they trust to give their honest opinion.

The trusted friend will probably say it isn't working as well as the ENFP thinks it is.

Besides, if you are making good decisions and working well with others, that is your Ne and Fi working well together.

Why would you credit Te with that????

I think that's actually the source of all this "ENFP with good Te" confusion.

 

[the state i am in]

my impressions of Te are that it actually does more to check Fi. that YES, my personal values and desires may point in this direction, but that they are actually not practical and not a way at making the best of the situation. that getting into the nitty gritty of implementation, i may have to give up certain things and accept more limitations placed on me if i actually want to make this happen, if it is actually valuable enough for me to commit to this and do this with 100% commitment (as much as an N dom can).

in short, i think a huge portion of positive tertiary and inferior is the opposite side of the brain than the predominant side (which, admittedly, is more of a symbolic analysis than a scientific one). i think Te makes enfps use their left brain a little more, be more focused, more detail oriented, more zoomed into one specific possibility and how to make it go off. taking time to integrate each piece of information more slowly, more methodically. which is a good balance for their free-wheelin' off-the-wall i-do-what-i-want kind of ways. that for me this get-things-going everywhere approach is maybe not as good, at times, as committing to something that is really valuable and will produce more specific, realistically positive outcomes (which is counterintuitive to complete total utter open-endedness as a religion).

just like Ti or Fi is imperative for us judgy chart-the-course injs who want to put everyone one the same page and direct the action in a sometimes too tightly composed/arranged/envisioned hyper-perfect way, that there are far more positive outcomes than only the one True one.

 

[sculpting]

I guess I am confused as other personality types are driven to positions of power for various reasons.

STJs do it for control, social prestige
ESTPs for money, power
ENTPs so they can get thier ideas realized
NTJs do it to drive thier vision of what the world should be.
So why is an ENFP working to move into a position scary? We have goals we would like to see realized...we need to be someplace where we can effectively accomplish them.

I have asked on several threads about is using our innate talents or what we learn to influence others "evil" or manipulative? I never really get a clear answer. Many other types besides ENFPs do this innately-so why is it wrong for an enfp to do this?

As for me-my ENTP says I do a good job with it. We tend to tag team folks with a Te/Fe combo. However I guess I am watching several folks use it and they seem to be doing quite well.

I tend to use Te for many choices-however these choices will benefit the company-thus accomplishing the overall Fi objective.

I thought our shadow was an INFJ?

 

[sculpting]

Te has ruled my life for a long time Wonka - it's hard to let go... but I've only been rigid and controlling of myself, not of others.

You said: "If we don't keep our inferior Te in check, we will end up being rigid, manipulative, untrustworthy, unstable, and, ultimately, untrue to ourselves."

The only part of that sentence I agree with is the "untrue to ourselves" part. Fi would never permit the other obstructive personality qualities you mention.

What about my other post too - what are your thoughts there?

This sounds true. For me-Fi feels like a mirror for other people's pain. Udog says it is not the actual emo pain, but for me I think the mirror is the first stage in how Fi analyzes another's emotions. I have to feel them first. If I inflict pain or discomfort on another, I feel it. Thus even with my puny underdevloped Fi, I still feel when I push others with Te too hard. There are some things I have had to do that make me physically twinge, yet I understand they are in the best interest for everyone involved in the long run.

Often I have to actually step away for awhile to "recover" from those decisions.