[MBTI General] The Advocate Turned Skeptic

[highlander]

Posting a video from a few years ago. This guy is interesting. He posted about 100 videos about type with a focus on INTJs. I thought a lot of them were decent. Then he took them down. This is his explanation as to why.

He makes some interesting points and I appreciate the counterarguments. A few overall comments:

• I do think we need to evaluate this stuff critically. There is a lot of bad information out there as well.
• Type doesn't need to turn into navel gazing as he describes. It can simply be a way to understand people a little better. I've used it for practical purposes for years. It's a data point, not a precise science.
• I'm actually not too sure about functions. If they do exist, I doubt they manifest in the strict order that some books describe. He's right - the "trickster function"? What?
• I think these systems work for a lot of people but not for others. It's not perfect. Categories are useful in statistics as they are in life though. Donald Trump is a narcissist. It's a category and way of describing him. That gives me an idea as to how he thinks and provides an explanation as to some of his behaviors.
• He's right about it being difficult to ascertain someone's type. It's the biggest problem with the systems in my opinion as far as practical usage. I find it difficult and tend not to rely on my guesses with accuracy. I can guess or have an idea of pieces of it which is still useful.
• He is saying this comes from paganism, or comparing this to astrology but I think those assertions are kind of ridiculous. I think his religious beliefs are clouding his judgment.
• I think Enneagram is useful for self development but MBTI is not particularly useful in that regard. I don't know who told him it was.
• He talks about MBTI being used to predict behavior. I don't know of anyone who knows anything about the topic says it should be used that way. It can be used to understand how someone thinks or what drives their motivations. That's very different than predicting behavior.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I've only watched about 5 minutes and plan on watching the rest, but so far, his issue is with methodology more than anything else, which is without a doubt a problem. Self-reporting is not accurate because it's not objective. Making something as abstract as typology objectively defined and tested and repeatable is a challenge.

With that said, based on the Objective Personality System, this guy is NiFi, so he is an INTJ. His full type per that system is: MM-Ni/Fi-SB/C

That means that per their system, they have objectively typed him as that specific type out of 512 possibilities. And no... they don't go by the individual's self-typing. I believe they have Erik Thor, who self-types as INFJ, typed as some variety of ENTP.

Anyway, just my standard OPS seed planting here. I think it's the closest to objective as typology can get, until we can identify personality genetically, that is.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Some of the points he brings up remind me of why I’ve gravitated away from MBTI and toward enneagram. Enneagram is about confronting ugly truths and using awareness of those truths to better oneself. MBTI has become about showing people the most idealized possible version of themselves, but offers little in the way in suggestions for growth and self improvement, leading to a circle jerk of self loathing back patting.

To be fair, some of those criticisms ought to be leveled more at the army of novices (myself included) who have misused the system, rather than at the system itself.

The paganism connection just seems like nitpicking coming from a Protestant though. Does this guy practice Easter and Christmas? Both arguably rooted in paganism. Get technical about it and early Hebrew religion, the root of his belief system, could technically be considered pagan too. Whatever

And socionics has just turned into a dating/matchmaking tool based on oversimplified dualities.

 

[Pionart]

I've only watched about 5 minutes and plan on watching the rest, but so far, his issue is with methodology more than anything else, which is without a doubt a problem. Self-reporting is not accurate because it's not objective. Making something as abstract as typology objectively defined and tested and repeatable is a challenge.

With that said, based on the Objective Personality System, this guy is NiFi, so he is an INTJ. His full type per that system is: MM-Ni/Fi-SB/C

That means that per their system, they have objectively typed him as that specific type out of 512 possibilities. And no... they don't go by the individual's self-typing. I believe they have Erik Thor, who self-types as INFJ, typed as some variety of ENTP.

Anyway, just my standard OPS seed planting here. I think it's the closest to objective as typology can get, until we can identify personality genetically, that is.

The interesting thing about type being genetic is that after you die you won't have a type any more. Your soul is unchanging and gives you your personality. Your spirit can be in some state or another, and this changes but keeps going. Genetics are just our earth character, not who we truly are. (So type compatibility is secondary to soul connection)

Also, guy in video looks like an INTJ visually, i picked that up immediately.

 

[Pionart]

Some of the points he brings up remind me of why I’ve gravitated away from MBTI and toward enneagram. Enneagram is about confronting ugly truths and using awareness of those truths to better oneself. MBTI has become about showing people the most idealized possible version of themselves, but offers little in the way in suggestions for growth and self improvement, leading to a circle jerk of self loathing back patting.

To be fair, some of those criticisms ought to be leveled more at the army of novices (myself included) who have misused the system, rather than at the system itself.

The paganism connection just seems like nitpicking coming from a Protestant though. Does this guy practice Easter and Christmas? Both arguably rooted in paganism. Get technical about it and early Hebrew religion, the root of his belief system, could technically be considered pagan too. Whatever

And socionics has just turned into a dating/matchmaking tool based on oversimplified dualities.

One interesting application of type theory that I've discovered is using willpower to shift ones type.

Another use is to look at each of your 8 functions and determining if any need to be turned up or down, fixed, etc

Jung was an evil person. Certainly far from a true christian. He studied alchemy, which seems popular amongst both the very good and very evil. Alchemy had a strong christian following, but it also attracts those looking for power. Black magicians. Jung was a black magician.

Given that, i often wonder why i study type, however:
A) type theory is way older than Jung. Sure he popularised it, but i don't need to follow jung to be a typologist.
B) i can fight the toxic elements of typology by figuring out how it actually works and what can be done with it, for good or evil.

I'm focused on sin reads at the moment. Reading the hearts of others for evil. Still interested in the 16 types though.

 

[Pionart]

The interesting thing about type being genetic is that after you die you won't have a type any more. Your soul is unchanging and gives you your personality. Your spirit can be in some state or another, and this changes but keeps going. Genetics are just our earth character, not who we truly are. (So type compatibility is secondary to soul connection)

Also, guy in video looks like an INTJ visually, i picked that up immediately.

I have to make an addition here: i think the soul actually does change in some ways, or modifications can happen to it, such as a state of love or sin. But it is eternal (or something like that??). The body and genetics fade away. I am unsure of what spirit is exactly, but it allows the will to effect reality in various ways, and can be higher or lower in strength at different times.

 

[Totenkindly]

In an argument over validity of MBTI type and whether it has a genetic basis (something that is hard to prove), someone is harping about how the soul exists and has its own type (something that is actually impossible to prove because it's actually a purely faith statement)?'

These are why type discussions fail.

Next thread.

 

[ceecee]

Some of the points he brings up remind me of why I’ve gravitated away from MBTI and toward enneagram. Enneagram is about confronting ugly truths and using awareness of those truths to better oneself. MBTI has become about showing people the most idealized possible version of themselves, but offers little in the way in suggestions for growth and self improvement, leading to a circle jerk of self loathing back patting.

To be fair, some of those criticisms ought to be leveled more at the army of novices (myself included) who have misused the system, rather than at the system itself.

Same. I always felt enneagram was more honest and focus more on improvement - here are the potential issues, here is something your type could do, instead of disingrating into the most horrible-ness of the type. For me, I really embraced looking towards the e2 when stressed instead of the e5 I use to end up being and all the potential destruction.

The paganism connection just seems like nitpicking coming from a Protestant though. Does this guy practice Easter and Christmas? Both arguably rooted in paganism. Get technical about it and early Hebrew religion, the root of his belief system, could technically be considered pagan too. Whatever

Yep.

As soon as I heard one person using the term "aristocrat" in a non-ironic way regarding socionics I was like and deemed it a totally unserious method to analyze personality.