[sx] Sx first, initiate first?

[Luv Deluxe]

Uh-huh. There's a fine line there. I also express not believing in the institution of marriage, not wanting to marry and have children (my own childhood was screwed up enough) but when it comes to the bottom of it, I can't agree with the last sentence from up there. And still you're the one with a... what? 3 yr long relationship?? Guess the older you are, the longer they last...

I don't really have a whole lotta time at the moment - about to run out the door to spend the weekend in a different city just because - but I want to answer this before I forget.

The older you are, the longer they last? Maybe? I guess? I dunno, based on what you've said in this thread, you and I are the same age or very nearly the same age, haha. An enormous reason my guy and I have been able to make it work is because neither of us is very traditional. We want the same things, we have similar chaotic drives, we're more likely to invite a third party into the bedroom than to tie the knot - and I love it. We don't want settled life, but that's an adventure we've embarked upon together. So, I suppose I technically have a soulmate - but he's my soulmate because he understands the expanse of my passions and believes in pursuing everything, too.

We're experience junkies 'til the bitter end, and as long as there's no ring and no children, I'm totally on board with that.

Sure, the more spontaneous, guileless, the better. You probably have never had to deal with overtly forced relationships. Which is also owed to extroversion and adaptability. Yesterday I talked about this with two guys, the boy said he has just a few friends bc he's straightforward a bit too much with his opinion, whereas the ESFP-ish (performer-type) girl said she keeps her opinions back. The mentioned other girl had said she didn't like me being to much "declarative," I state my opinions very strongly. I said my mother is a leader-type (E8), I got used to needing to be assertive. So when whole years pass without "organic" relationships forming, one starts to crave for at least just one - the one that will last.

Yeah, I'm also quite forceful with my opinions/reactions, but it's due to the Sx passion, I think. I strive to be diplomatic in my dealings with others, but my circle of true friends is actually quite small and that's how I like it. (I'm assertive, but it seems to bubble out once you've gotten to know me. To most people, I initially seem edgy/intense/reticent.)

As far as relationships go, I think it might just come down to confidence for me. Trying your luck with people who matter to you, etc. Someone has to initiate of course, but pressing the issue is where I begin to see the situation as less organic, and therefore less ideal. Plant the seeds and let 'em go, if they're into you it'll flourish naturally.

Yea, I meant more physically risky stuff. About taking the initiative. I find confessions hard, as an Fi user, especially as a repressed Fi user, to be hard when you want it be heartfelt. To really pour out your emotions. A lot easier to just assemble a sentence and toss it to the other. But even harder it is to confess to a stranger... honestly: like "hey. I saw you across the street. I think... I don't know who you are and if we'll ever see each other again.. but I think you look gorgeous ... and that clumsiness in your movement can't help but suggest stronger a special warmth inside. of. you."

Gotcha. Yeah, I've done lots of physically risky things (I've always called it "sexual chicken"), but I think I'll refrain from posting the gritty details in public, hahaha.

 

[Xena]

I didn't read the previous replies but just wanted to share my experience. I'm SP/SX, and my last partner was SX/SO. She reached out to me on Match.com when I was about to give up since I felt like all the people I was meeting prior weren't compatible, and I was losing hope.

So once she reached out, I was able to respond, but didn't initiate communication.

When the relationship became physical, she became dependent on me to be the initiator...and that continued throughout the relationship. It was VERY difficult for me to be in that role.

She seems very good at initiating social contact in general. Where as I only initiate on an as-needed basis pretty much, because it feels like social interaction needs to have a purpose, or what's the point?

 

[Neokortex]

Statistically, you're unlikely to meet all that many ENTJs, period. ENTJ femmes even less so. If you had, they were more than likely mistyped.

I've had 2 ENTJs on one class, both 30 something, if I am not mistaken by my typing. I sensed similar kind of attitude, behavior, type of expression in them than the one guy I mentioned, they're calm, grounded, have a "centered in themselves" feeling to them, a silent confidence and only talking in short phrases, assertively. The teacher of that course was a scatterbrained ENTP. We had a Constitution debate going on. They used to stay all the time in the background, but this time they came forth strong for the woman and the guy were on opposing sides. They took charge and they were the loudest, next to them some other extroverts and the introverts not bothering so much. I talked with both of them and realized that I can ask intimidating questions to the woman to which she would not answer, instead act like it didn't happen and I had more extended one-on-one with the guy, theorizing about stuff. He was determined to argue for he believed in but had also a polite distantiation instead of throwing himself in and even giving out more personal details about why he's at all into this topic, etc.. The guy had the aggression I didn't and at times was frustrated for being unable to verbalize logical concepts. On the other hand, I was more persistent in trying to make him think outside of his own box. I guess he wanted to persuade me with his political idea, that's why didn't let himself carried away by his aggressive outbursts (I teased him a lot, too D) or just to appear level headed but even at 1-on-1 there was this distance of two stranger intellectuals doing some debate, unlike that Sx type of intimacy of trying to persuade by becoming a confidante.

I'm still unclear on what your actual question is. Is it more why are sx women not pursuing you specifically? Most girls I know who identify as sx-dom are pretty comfortable with initiative. You're kind of prickly, though. Prickly intellectual sorts usually tend to appeal to women who like the validation of a dude who only shows the squishy vulnerable bits to them on occasion.

It's not that they don't pursue me... it's that no one has even tried. And the ones I tried with have never had even a remotely close world-view, understandably, because they've never had any problems coming from an So blind spot, for instance. And they were the offended ones for me asking questions that were too intrusive, too early - apology was no help either, they started offending me back... Odd thing is, I try it a lot, even IRL, even with people who don't fit my personality, chemistry. I misfire a lot... and you know why? Because, one, I just want soo much to reach out, to connect, and two, Sx is sooo effin rare, there really is no proper way to identify it, unless you get to see someone talking. Meaning that there's really no other way than just to keep shootin' in the dark. And there'd be a chance that if women did that too on these forums, at least once I'd get a chance, even if a mistaken one. If you say that's desperate then thank heavens or whathaveyou for having such a balanced out life.

I have a pretty expansive network. I know a lot of people and have options socially. But even those are based on 1-1 relationships. I'll have, say, one strong tie to a social group and then a half dozen weaker ties within that group. They're people I'm friendly with, but they're not friends. For me, all being an sx-dom means is that some people are interesting enough to me that I want them entirely. I want to know who they are, what makes them happy or sad, all the good and terrible things. I simply want them. It's a desire that's intense but uncomplicated. Sometimes it's directed towards something (like, I very much want to accomplish this thing or that) but usually it's more about someone.

Yea, balanced out, from what you write it seems your So is pretty much taken care of, anything but an Achilles heel. But you aren't the first with that. To have an, I beg your pardon, honestly, oversimplified, naive take on the theory. You may just have an Enneagram 5 to make you a bit introverted. After all, who does really have as much real friends, as extended a "friends"-network offers on facebook? People cursory to ruminating won't take time to immerse in these theories, especially, theories that are so cryptically written that only some NF humanities literary studies person is able to decipher its metaphors.

Sx-first is a way lot more than that. It's a drama, it's a love or die, It's... I WANT SOMETHING TO HAPPEN GODDAMIT!

 

[Neokortex]

The older you are, the longer they last? Maybe? I guess? I dunno, based on what you've said in this thread, you and I are the same age or very nearly the same age, haha. An enormous reason my guy and I have been able to make it work is because neither of us is very traditional. We want the same things, we have similar chaotic drives, we're more likely to invite a third party into the bedroom than to tie the knot - and I love it. We don't want settled life, but that's an adventure we've embarked upon together. So, I suppose I technically have a soulmate - but he's my soulmate because he understands the expanse of my passions and believes in pursuing everything, too.

We're experience junkies 'til the bitter end, and as long as there's no ring and no children, I'm totally on board with that.

Uhuh... Uhuh, some crazy extroverts, uhuh, that's normal... Se junkies...

Yeah, I'm also quite forceful with my opinions/reactions, but it's due to the Sx passion, I think. I strive to be diplomatic in my dealings with others, but my circle of true friends is actually quite small and that's how I like it. (I'm assertive, but it seems to bubble out once you've gotten to know me. To most people, I initially seem edgy/intense/reticent.)

Uhuh.... uhuh... keeping back Sx to not be all against the norms, make a scene, etc.... yes...

As far as relationships go, I think it might just come down to confidence for me. Trying your luck with people who matter to you, etc. Someone has to initiate of course, but pressing the issue is where I begin to see the situation as less organic, and therefore less ideal. Plant the seeds and let 'em go, if they're into you it'll flourish naturally.

Ah... that's true, that's wise. You're right. Patience, darn, patience!

Gotcha. Yeah, I've done lots of physically risky things (I've always called it "sexual chicken"), but I think I'll refrain from posting the gritty details in public, hahaha.

Uhuh... uhWhAT??? Nooo... NOOO! You're chickening out again!! Blast you, come back you little.. you little weasel smthing... GGGRRHHHR!!!!

( xDDDDD )

 

[Neokortex]

I didn't read the previous replies but just wanted to share my experience. I'm SP/SX, and my last partner was SX/SO. She reached out to me on Match.com when I was about to give up since I felt like all the people I was meeting prior weren't compatible, and I was losing hope.

So once she reached out, I was able to respond, but didn't initiate communication.

When the relationship became physical, she became dependent on me to be the initiator...and that continued throughout the relationship. It was VERY difficult for me to be in that role.

She seems very good at initiating social contact in general. Where as I only initiate on an as-needed basis pretty much, because it feels like social interaction needs to have a purpose, or what's the point?

What do you mean dependent? Isn't that supposed to be balanced out somehow? Sp/Sx is interesting you guys are self contained and don't risk much? Sometimes if I get initiation I overreact, give her back 2x the attention. Sounds like you needed to be poked once or twice to make a move on her. Oh, you mean she invited you in her social sphere? And it was difficult for you to navigate to her through her acquaintances, whatnot? Kinda like let out the fishing rope and wait till you work your way back to her?

 

[Neokortex]

It's part of the fun, is it not?

Direct and brutal is fun too - which is why i love sx-sps. And yes, I like to slow them down a bit, to ease us in a little more, and smooth things out a bit. But it can become a fun game if the other is up for it. I usually gauge how much patience and playtime the other party wants though and at some point, I do get serious and very clear - especially when I sense they need a decision or reassurance.

Fwiw, I have an INFP friend from school who..was so-sx, Id say. He had a habit of being adopted like a puppy from the pound by each one of his gfs and his now wife (INTJ sp-so). I mean..I've mastered the adorable kitty look to a T, ready to disarm any opponent with silliness but that man...his patented Bambi-eyes effect was something even I couldn't compete with.

Trust me, you boys come equipped with your own set of lethal weapons on this front

I've seen it... the Bambi eyes... I call'em manga or animé eyes, very jelly jiggly, almost in tears... I guess that'd be the Heart type So/Sx? Ya' know those cute kind of introvert girls, have this sad emotional aurea blended with infinite curiosity (and self-submission to object of curiosity) around them.

How about this chick?

My (Awkward) ENFP Friendship - YouTube

 

[Amargith]

I've seen it... the Bambi eyes... I call'em manga or animé eyes, very jelly jiggly, almost in tears... I guess that'd be the Heart type So/Sx? Ya' know those cute kind of introvert girls, have this sad emotional aurea blended with infinite curiosity (and self-submission to object of curiosity) around them.

How about this chick?

My (Awkward) ENFP Friendship - YouTube

I'd wager she's typed correctly, though I only watched a short time

 

[Neokortex]

I'd wager she's typed correctly, though I only watched a short time

No, the other one. The ENFP Sx/So

 

[Amargith]

No, the other one. The ENFP Sx/So

....thats who i was talking about.

 

[Neokortex]

I'd wager she's typed correctly, though I only watched a short time

Not even any close resemblance?

 

[Amargith]

Not even any close resemblance?

to who...to me???
Not sure what youre asking or why, right now.
context plz?

 

[Xena]

What do you mean dependent? Isn't that supposed to be balanced out somehow? Sp/Sx is interesting you guys are self contained and don't risk much? Sometimes if I get initiation I overreact, give her back 2x the attention. Sounds like you needed to be poked once or twice to make a move on her. Oh, you mean she invited you in her social sphere? And it was difficult for you to navigate to her through her acquaintances, whatnot? Kinda like let out the fishing rope and wait till you work your way back to her?

What I meant by dependent was that she wasn't going to make any physical first moves unless I initiated...so she could be sure it was something I wanted. But that persisted throughout the relationship. It was very hard for me since I don't tend to put myself on a limb like that and risk the vulnerability. So you're right about taking risks... and it takes A LOT of energy for me to get out there and find someone that I connect with...and I don't connect that deeply with most people. The people I have in my life are the ones I feel a connection to and it is very intense.

I didn't even know until the second date that I felt any attraction for her but once I did, it was very obvious. The subject came up about me kissing her, and she said she was going to let me take the lead in that...so if I wanted it, I had to initiate. It was excruciating to me.

She is SX dom though...so she is the one that sought me out initially....and being a 4, she was more aware of her feelings than I was. She seems to like to get intense with a lot of people...until she gets as close as she can. She will seek out those intense connections much more readily than I ever would.

I always felt like my main mode of connection was to be pretty much independent, living by myself down in a hole...cast my net upward to attract one mate, and then bring them down with me so we can be intense together, away from the world.

 

[Amargith]

What I meant by dependent was that she wasn't going to make any physical first moves unless I initiated...so she could be sure it was something I wanted. But that persisted throughout the relationship. It was very hard for me since I don't tend to put myself on a limb like that and risk the vulnerability. So you're right about taking risks... and it takes A LOT of energy for me to get out there and find someone that I connect with...and I don't connect that deeply with most people. The people I have in my life are the ones I feel a connection to and it is very intense.

I didn't even know until the second date that I felt any attraction for her but once I did, it was very obvious. The subject came up about me kissing her, and she said she was going to let me take the lead in that...so if I wanted it, I had to initiate. It was excruciating to me.

She is SX dom though...so she is the one that sought me out initially....and being a 4, she was more aware of her feelings than I was. She seems to like to get intense with a lot of people...until she gets as close as she can. She will seek out those intense connections much more readily than I ever would.

I always felt like my main mode of connection was to be pretty much independent, living by myself down in a hole...cast my net upward to attract one mate, and then bring them down with me so we can be intense together, away from the world.

That is interesting.

I very much relate to the bolded. I guess..the thing is that when youre that comfortable with getting up close and personal, you run into the problem of people not...being comfortable with that. So, that consent thing, that 'checking to see if they want it' thing becomes like a part of it. Because it is so easy to run roughshot over them. Also, the amount of rejections on that area tend to make you a bit gunshy and it is *nice* not to have to take the lead all the time and actually feel like the other wants this too. So it becomes a habit - a safety tool, for both your ego and their comfort level. And for a 4...who believes they are broken and who envies all the 'normal' people out there, it is an amazing source of validation on the 'I am wanted' front. I honestly usually wait for people, and even my partner, to set the tone, so I know what level of intensity we can do today

It's interesting that you find it excruciating to engage though...even in a committed relationship. I'dve thought those fears would evaporate once you re in a stable relationship? Or at least diminish greatly, since the conquest is already complete. For that matter, if you're ever going to be vulnerable, a committed relationship with the person you love and who loves you is...well, the place to do it

Or is it just something that never feels natural to you?

 

[Neokortex]

to who...to me???
Not sure what youre asking or why, right now.
context plz?

They typed her as ENFP sx/so and 7w8 (?)
Does she have Sx/So traits that is similar to you?

 

[Amargith]

They typed her as ENFP sx/so and 7w8 (?)
Does she have Sx/So traits that is similar to you?

Yes, she does. She's quite comfortable with being physical - in fact, it's a clear difference from her friend. I have that same thing - i have to watch the signals of the other person to make sure I'm not overstepping boundaries as I touch them naturally. She also has a slumbering intensity, and is easily amused by people - just look at how she watches her friend speak to the camera and smirks when she talks about the things that make her uncomfortable. I also noticed the artistic license (the tattoo), the long hair and the penchant towards sensuality.

I'd expect her (I didn't see all of it) to be more out there and fun, than I am. I can access my 7 from my tritype, and I can be Ne-silly but it's more of a way to entertain me and others, and laughing off my own nervousness in certain situations. However, once I get into deep convo I'm...too melancholic and too dark for most people to take well. I'd expect a straight up 7 to be more 'riding the wave' with people, as such. I'd also expect her to be..less intense than me, when it comes down to it, due to the lighthearted nature of the 7. And I'd expect her to be more Te-heavy due to the w8, than I am. I can go there, but it takes a lot to get me there and Im betting she has a better handle on that Te-sledgehammer than I do

 

[Neokortex]

So you're right about taking risks... and it takes A LOT of energy for me to get out there and find someone that I connect with...and I don't connect that deeply with most people. The people I have in my life are the ones I feel a connection to and it is very intense.

Don't worry, it sounds like you have it better than I do. For me it doesn't take much energy to put myself out there.... In fact, I've been migrating over and over the past couple of... half decade? Because, you see, you seem to be aiming for stability, whereas I can't stick to one place for long and I'm always distracted. Not just that I don't connect with everyone, the few and light connections I can make are so slow in developing that I get bored and depressed out of my mind.

But you're doung better bc you write you have people in your life you feel an intense connection to. I don't have that, I'm a lonewolf. I used to have one or two friends and even now I know some I can call if needed help but they usually don't initiate and I realized, since I'm a Social four, I don't feel my feelings so well and with these guys I had made a compromise regarding feelings, they aren't friends based on my feelings. Have been having busy times so I haven't even tried to keep in touch.

Like now I'm volunteered to do a presentation at the "toastmasters club," which I attended for the first time last week. But now I already feel bad for committing since I figured the Psychologists' film club is every Thursday and I've seen some nice girls in their group. I guess the one sitting at the computer opposite to me, the one I'm making eyes with now is also someone from there (I'm at the uni's computer lab).

I didn't even know until the second date that I felt any attraction for her but once I did, it was very obvious.

Pfffh... Man, so you don't, like, look at, feel atracted to girls on a hot summer street? You meant interpersonal attraction, as psyche to psyche? I think on a first date this should be a bit more obvious, or even before, otherwise what would motivate someone to ask the other out?

What I meant by dependent was that she wasn't going to make any physical first moves unless I initiated...so she could be sure it was something I wanted. But that persisted throughout the relationship. It was very hard for me since I don't tend to put myself on a limb like that and risk the vulnerability. (...) The subject came up about me kissing her, and she said she was going to let me take the lead in that...so if I wanted it, I had to initiate. It was excruciating to me.

Wait. What did she say? How she brought up the kissing option? DD That sounds funny, I've never had anyone do that, with the last girl I was the one coming up with the pervert stuff and she said she was pervert too and I was like, "why don't we do something about it?" xDDD But why was it excruciating if you're told clear as sky that you're allowed to? Ask her if she wants it on the neck. There's a LOT to play there before even doing anything. The excruciating thing for me is when I just can't figure out what's on her mind... when she wants me to lead her and take the steps and she's not even giving me the feedback. I just hate girls with whom you can't talk things through regarding sexuality... I'm like her, though, I like to be the prize, more of a feminine quality there. If you got to talk about kissing, that's a good sign, you can infer at least she had that in her mind, she wanted that.

She is SX dom though...so she is the one that sought me out initially....and being a 4, she was more aware of her feelings than I was. She seems to like to get intense with a lot of people...until she gets as close as she can. She will seek out those intense connections much more readily than I ever would.

How did she seek you out? Or how did "you cast your net upward" to attract her in? I guess I wouldn't be much comfortable with a 4, that drama thing, and I'm not comfortable with my emotions... have met some girls trying to ellicit my emotions but it just freaked me out. Once I almost ran away. It feels so... awkward.

I also feel that I'd remove myself from the world if I found someone, more or less fitting..., but that's the thing, there's always something missing and the grass is always greener on some other sides... I'm always "what if?" about other possibilities, variations, flavours, unless someone was truly able to ground me. On the other hand, you can't remove yourself, duty, job, responsibility and even your mental health depends from fresh air.

 

[Neokortex]

I very much relate to the bolded. I guess..the thing is that when youre that comfortable with getting up close and personal, you run into the problem of people not...being comfortable with that. So, that consent thing, that 'checking to see if they want it' thing becomes like a part of it.

Because it is so easy to run roughshot over them. Also, the amount of rejections on that area tend to make you a bit gunshy and it is *nice* not to have to take the lead all the time and actually feel like the other wants this too. So it becomes a habit - a safety tool, for both your ego and their comfort level. And for a 4...who believes they are broken and who envies all the 'normal' people out there, it is an amazing source of validation on the 'I am wanted' front. I honestly usually wait for people, and even my partner, to set the tone, so I know what level of intensity we can do today

Yeah, but there's a difference there. You say you're gunshy for past rejections but there's also the thing that being Sx-dom means yount can't always control it. You have to satisfy it at times. And if you're not doing anything at all, like in dry periods, proactively, not initiating to anyone, that may not be Sx-first at all. After all, it is about taking risk, about penetration. You can always explain yourself not having taken the initiative by referring to 4 being an introverted heart type. And the So secondary making you more adaptive. But that's still secondary to Sx.

Yes, she does. She's quite comfortable with being physical - in fact, it's a clear difference from her friend. I have that same thing - i have to watch the signals of the other person to make sure I'm not overstepping boundaries as I touch them naturally. She also has a slumbering intensity,

Hmm.. is your touching Sx-related?

+I know what you're saying, bc with this last girl I had done stuff with consent was a thing. She was more like an Sp/Sx, INTP, waiting for me to do stuff. And I had to keep back at times, not to ravage her completely. But still I had no problem with coming up with ideas, voicing them and when in the heat of the action, taking the lead.

 

[Amargith]

Yeah, but there's a difference there. You say you're gunshy for past rejections but there's also the thing that being Sx-dom means yount can't always control it. You have to satisfy it at times. And if you're not doing anything at all, like in dry periods, proactively, not initiating to anyone, that may not be Sx-first at all. After all, it is about taking risk, about penetration. You can always explain yourself not having taken the initiative by referring to 4 being an introverted heart type. And the So secondary making you more adaptive. But that's still secondary to Sx.

I know what you're saying, bc with this last girl I had done stuff with consent was a thing. She was more like an Sp/Sx, INTP, waiting for me to do stuff. And I had to keep back at times, not ravage her completely. But still I had no problem with coming up with ideas, voicing them and when in the heat of the action, taking the lead.

You're right - I do crave it. And I cannot control it. Hence, I get my fix from new people. People I encounter, who I meet and find intriguing. And whose rejection won't hurt nearly as much as the person I'm with, nor risk an important relationship by being a constant nag for attention.

When I see my partner come in through the door, I know which mood he is in. And usually, especially while living together and he sees me every day and he comes home from work, with a ton of meetings, he's not in a people mood. So do I jump his bones and get shot down? No...I wait to see when he's actually focused on me. If he has energy for that tonight. And even then, I'll hint I'm open to more, but I dont want to take away from what he wants to do that evening. If that happens to be me..thats great. These days, I do insist in at least physical contact, if not mental focus, in order for us to actually not live like roommates next to each other - an easy trap to fall into. Since we both share Touch as our love language, it keeps us connected and feeling loved by the other.

And you could argue, this is even more of a factor when you're still in a young relationship, because it's still fragile and you don't want to put pressure on them. Besides, its nice to know that they're still desiring you and are into you, instead of feeling like you're asking for their attention all the time. And so, it becomes a habit to let them initiate it. It's like having a higher sex drive, in a way. You're always up for more intimacy, so you follow their pace instead

Like I said, I try to match what the other person is putting out, because what I put out naturally tends to be too much for anyone to take on board

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I'm Sx/Sp.

I tend to adjust my style to whomever I want to attract or I am attracted to. I like playing with all of that. I can be aggressive, or I can be a bit coy. Either way, I guess I have had fun with the game (no negative connotation) of it all.

Some people don't need to have attraction spelled out in order to respond. Some do. But either way you go about getting there is enjoyable.

But I have to lock onto someone. I don't think anyone has "won me over". I want someone, I'll find a way to get them.

 

[Starry]

Is anything creepy going on in this thread? I haven't read it so I thought I would just ask.