Suicide and social power

[FemMecha]

When someone is suicidal, this gives them an immediate power card over everyone who cares about them. I spent many years alongside someone who was suicidal and because of this, everyone immediately catered to this person in a desperate attempt to quell off this severe depression. Their feelings were of greater value than everyone around them because they were in a state of emergency. There was an underlying fear to ever offer criticism, get into just a regular spat, constant fear if they withdrew they had done themselves in. People constantly pleaded to consider some more positive alternatives to thinking, reminding them they always have someone to turn to, etc. Being in a clinical depression, this person would throw off every attempt at help as useless and wasn't inclined towards medical help either.

I have loved such people and 'tried' to be a source of support. But i never offered the basic suggestions to help clarify their thinking. For example, this person from my past believed all the problems would be fixed if they simply had someone to love. Because they saw the responsibility for their happiness as resting on another person, they would sabotage social interactions by obviously placing way too much emotional pressure immediately. People would tend to run. It was a horrible catch-22. This person was admirable and worthwhile, but their insistence on self-destruction and that help could only come from a lover gave them a power card i don't think they even were aware they were playing.

It's tragic, and important. I have no idea how to negotiate through this type of minefield. I've had to try and i come out with a lot of guilt, confusion, regret, and yet no clear idea of what i 'should' have done.

Anyone share this type of experience and have success?

 

[digesthisickness]

i've experienced a lot of suicide and a lot of suicidal talk in both my family and friends.

i'm not saying that what i've witnessed is how 'it is', but the ones that followed through (five in total) were always the ones who never mentioned it in the first place. everything seemed fine, and then they were dead.

the ones that have hinted around about it or came right out and said it's a possibility haven't done more than inflicted superficial wounds.

 

[runvardh]

Had the thoughts, didn't do it, I'd probably say "go ahead" if someone threatened to do it...

 

[ygolo]

One of the things I've realized is that depression adn even suicidal thoughts are fare more prevelant than reported, diagnosed and treated. When my family and friends found out I was depressed, many have confessed to feeling the same way. Some did not actually end up taking medication, but counselling was common.

It seems more thatn the 1 in 5 talked about, closer to the 1 in 3 figure I saw somewhere (but I haven't found).

I don't think their feelings were of a greater value because of the state of emergency. But the state of emergency did warrant making sure he/she felt heard, loved, and appreciated.

For me, I always felt loved and appreciated, but the thing that got to me was "marginalization". Never being taken seriously, not being heard, and or being dismissed. I felt like I was incapable of making myself understood on things that mattered to me. I don't know if being depressed was a "power play", but I can certanly understand it being percived that way-- someway to have people listen to me for a change.

Still, I would consider my own story a "success" so far. I believe I have pulled out of my depression, and now my councelling sessions are going to be on an "as needed" basis and I will see my psychiatrist to check on medication every couple of months or so (mainly to cope with any potential compliations as I start the widthrawal process).

 

[JivinJeffJones]

i'm not saying that what i've witnessed is how 'it is', but the ones that followed through (five in total) were always the ones who never mentioned it in the first place. everything seemed fine, and then they were dead.

the ones that have hinted around about it or came right out and said it's a possibility haven't done more than inflicted superficial wounds.

Of course, the ones who said nothing gave no opportunity to be talked back from the brink, since no-one knew they were there. The ones that hinted or admitted they were having suicidal thoughts could be helped.

 

[Totenkindly]

Of course, the ones who said nothing gave no opportunity to be talked back from the brink, since no-one knew they were there. The ones that hinted or admitted they were having suicidal thoughts could be helped.

I tend to see it more as in this:

If someone really wants to kill themselves, they'll do it and have no need to discuss it with someone else. In fact, they might even avoid discussing it... because they don't want someone to stop them.

If someone wants to find another alternative to killing themselves, even if they do not know what it could possibly be, they'll bring it up. They want SOMEONE to say something that might help, or just have others know what they're going through and perhaps that knowledge might be enough to keep them alive (i.e., being understood).

Of course, those who bring it up in a context of a fight, to manipulate someone else, really doesn't want to kill themselves at all; they're just playing for power.

I know with me it's the middle one, when I've talked about it. I really don't want to die, I'd rather live. But often I have very bad feelings of wanting to be dead because I don't know how else to end the pain and/or pervasive numbness. A solution other than death is preferable, if I get a choice.

 

[prplchknz]

I've been depressed most of my life. I rarely tell people anymore, because they normally offer no help or act suprised. I also had a bad experience in therapy that kind of turned me off to the idea of asking for help. It wasn't tramatizing or anything, it was they were trying to change me into something I didn't like. I'm getting to the point where if I don't get help, I'll be dead soon. It's so hard for me to ask though.

I've had friends tell me they were going to kill themselves/depressed. I found out from one friend later, that she liked me because I listened and just let her vent. And I'm really hard to offend, so people can say whatever they want, and live however they want as long as they aren't hurting others.

 

[whiteraven]

I apologize for using point form, but it is how this wants to be written.

Years of cycling depression, mostly wanting to disappear, but including bouts of wanting to damage. Morphed into wanting to be dead. Too proud (?) to share, couple of bad experiences trying to share shut me up. Times of okayness. Gradually spiraled into constant thoughts of death, craving to hurt, planning on how, talking myself out of it every waking moment instead of thinking about doing it. Manic stupidity mixed in to distract from the feelings of wanting to be dead, or the feelings of nothingness and constant pain. Finally it came out, made drastic changes in my life that I feel are necessary to avoid being that way, the person whom this affected most had to know the reasons for it and it got even worse. Didn't think it was possible.

Now I am getting better, has settled to mostly feelings of wanting to run away, cut, or smother when pressured. The person affected by my decision is the one who is where I was. He threatens, but I feel that his is different than mine. Mine gradually built over years, and I think I may have actually slipped through the cracks had I not decided that I had to try some other things first. I also worry that I could go that way again if not enough change is made. His seems to be more a way to get me to listen to him. If he does anything, it will be in a fit of rage or frustration, not completely planned. Mine would have been arranged to the last detail. Oxidation versus combustion.

I wonder if there is any information out there on which type actually attempts or succeeds more often. I do know they say women attempt more and males succeed more due to the relative violence of the attempts.

 

[Sahara]

I was told that the suicide rate was higher in SJ's Whiteraven, but you might want to check that as this is an infp relaying facts here.

 

[whiteraven]

I guess I should have said "kind" instead of "type" around here. I was more asking if the lashing out type of suicidal person actually succeeds or the silent, slip away and do it person does. I guess I was wondering if what digest found was true. Of the two people who were related to me who succeeded, I don't think anyone knew for one, but he had many other issues, and the other had attempted many times, but the family still thinks she was just attempting to get help and not to really die, but this time no one got to her on time.

I guess part of me wants to know how much to worry.

 

[Park]

I have loved such people and 'tried' to be a source of support. But i never offered the basic suggestions to help clarify their thinking. For example, this person from my past believed all the problems would be fixed if they simply had someone to love. Because they saw the responsibility for their happiness as resting on another person, they would sabotage social interactions by obviously placing way too much emotional pressure immediately. People would tend to run. It was a horrible catch-22. This person was admirable and worthwhile, but their insistence on self-destruction and that help could only come from a lover gave them a power card i don't think they even were aware they were playing.

It's tragic, and important. I have no idea how to negotiate through this type of minefield. I've had to try and i come out with a lot of guilt, confusion, regret, and yet no clear idea of what i 'should' have done.

Anyone share this type of experience and have success?

I grew up with a co-dependant, depressive and suicidal ENFJ mother. I didn't have much success dealing with her until I reached adulthood. Children usually don't argue with parental suicide threats, in my case, fear would usually paralyze me and my best argument would be something silly like "please, don't kill yourself". I don't socialize with her much today and when I do, I tend to keep an emotional distance. She's told me many times that my rare visits and distance hurts her, to which I usually just reply that I'm busy with work and that I don't crave the same kind of emotional intimachy she does. The last part is the reason why she often describes me as cold and hard. No doubt that it is how she often perceives me but at the same time, it's also a pretty cheap trick to make me feel guilty and neatless to say, guilt in the hands of a codependant ENFJ is a dangerous weapon.

She'll never change, her depressions combined with her co-dependance, manipulative nature and a poor ability to apply logic to personal problems makes any attempt to help her pointless.

 

[Totenkindly]

I guess I should have said "kind" instead of "type" around here. I was more asking if the lashing out type of suicidal person actually succeeds or the silent, slip away and do it person does. I guess I was wondering if what digest found was true. Of the two people who were related to me who succeeded, I don't think anyone knew for one, but he had many other issues, and the other had attempted many times, but the family still thinks she was just attempting to get help and not to really die, but this time no one got to her on time. I guess part of me wants to know how much to worry.

I don't think I have ever see statistics on the sort of criteria you describe, WR.

In general, if an adult (i.e., someone with resources to control their environment) truly wants to kill themselves, they can take the necessary steps to make sure it happens. Even if someone just takes pills, they can get in their car and drive to an isolated location and take the pills there, so no one can find them in time. Or they can use a more violent method (as men often do) to ensure that they cannot be stopped.

People who use a passive method in a highly traveled/frequented area seem to be at least partly hoping that someone finds them or stops them.

I grew up with a co-dependant, depressive and suicidal ENFJ mother. I didn't have much success dealing with her until I reached adulthood. Children usually don't argue with parental suicide threats, in my case, fear would usually paralyze me and my best argument would be something silly like "please, don't kill yourself".

My alcoholic father did the same thing. Now I see it for what it was: Pure vintage emotional manipulation. He needed the reassurance he was still loved, so he'd threaten himself to see if his wife or children cared enough to beg him not to do it.

 

[cafe]

When I was feeling what I would now probably consider suicidal I did not tell anyone, even my psychiatrist. I had no intention of killing myself, I just felt like I wanted to. I had (unsummoned) fantasies about doing it but never made plans to. It was sort of along the lines of what Jennifer has described. I did not want to die. I wanted the pain to stop and at that point in my life, death seemed like the only way for that to happen.

When things in my external world became better, my suicidal feelings faded away. Now when I feel I'm headed that way I am able to divert my mind from that path. I was not able to do that when I was in bad shape.

If I'd been thinking clearly, I might have mentioned it to someone. My mother shot herself in the chest when she was nineteen, but lived and my great-grandfather drank Lysol and died. I just didn't want the drama. I was too ashamed and I had no one to care for my kids if they decided to put me in something residential.

I don't know what this has to do with the OP, though.

 

[whiteraven]

I think that it points out that not everyone who is suicidal is using it to control others' emotions. I know when I was, I didn't want anyone to know. I wanted to figure out what it was that was causing it and take care of it all on my own. I made a big mess of it, as I was not very rational at the time and could have probably used some outside help. I still see that some do use it to get attention, to get others to help them, or as a form of control, but just as with almost, if not every, other human behaviour, the motivations for them are as varied as the people exhibiting them.

Oh, and I had seen way back when I had my second MBTI done in a text of stats for type that I was the only preference that was definitively linked to depression (i.e. increased probability over E). That was around 10 years ago now.

 

[Totenkindly]

If I'd been thinking clearly, I might have mentioned it to someone. My mother shot herself in the chest when she was nineteen, but lived and my great-grandfather drank Lysol and died.

!!!

I'm so sorry, that's awful. And it is a legacy that you do not need to be a part of. I'm glad that things have gotten better enough for you overall that you are able to deal with the feelings now. When I am feeling stronger, I do the same diversion technique; when I'm out of energy, it is harder.

As far as the OP goes, I haven't had a lot of experience with working through a potential suicide. There is always a tendency to err on the side of caution... because obviously you so do not want to err on the OTHER side.

At the same time, it doesn't help to cater to the manipulative side of things. All I can think of is to be willing to invest yourself heavily in the other person, to correct the distortion in their thinking that is leading them towards these sort of bids for attention. This can take a long while, if they are not even consciously aware of what they are doing. (So for example if they are looking towards others to provide them value in life, somehow that burden has to be shifted and they need to find value elsewhere... but these sorts of changes take a long time to occur, unless there is some cataclysmic event.)

 

[cafe]

!!!

I'm so sorry, that's awful. And it is a legacy that you do not need to be a part of. I'm glad that things have gotten better enough for you overall that you are able to deal with the feelings now. When I am feeling stronger, I do the same diversion technique; when I'm out of energy, it is harder.

Exactly and it gets to be a self-perpetuation cycle that leaves you powerless to so much as address the factors that contribute to it. That's what makes death so very appealing. I am not glad I had to be where I was but I am glad that being there gave me more understanding of where one's mind can go.

As far as the OP goes, I haven't had a lot of experience with working through a potential suicide. There is always a tendency to err on the side of caution... because obviously you so do not want to err on the OTHER side.

At the same time, it doesn't help to cater to the manipulative side of things. All I can think of is to be willing to invest yourself heavily in the other person, to correct the distortion in their thinking that is leading them towards these sort of bids for attention. This can take a long while, if they are not even consciously aware of what they are doing. (So for example if they are looking towards others to provide them value in life, somehow that burden has to be shifted and they need to find value elsewhere... but these sorts of changes take a long time to occur, unless there is some cataclysmic event.)

When it's a manipulative thing, which I haven't dealt with recently, but did have someone go there when I was a young adult. She's still alive AFAIK. I don't have a lot of patience with it. Emotional manipulation ticks me off to the point where I might be tempted to help them carry out their threat. If they are going to keep screwing with me like that, then I'm going to see to it that they wind up in a locked room with no shoe laces.

 

[Rohsiph]

If not for witnessing, albeit somewhat loosely (in the case of an extended family member), the consequences of suicide, I wonder if my own occasional depression would have led me to an attempt.

I think I identify with what Jennifer and cafe describe, as, particularly in moments of doubt, I will find my thoughts slowly shrugging up with suicide, yet it is not as much a desire as I think it is trying to search for other answers.

Were I to be manipulated by someone "threatening" to kill his/herself, I think myself likely to encourage them along the lines of "if you manage to kill yourself, good riddance--you weren't worth my time anyways." This happened once (that is, I responded like this), and the former friend did not kill herself, but rather ran off to cry on other friends' shoulders. And, indeed, I thought "good riddance."

 

[Park]

- Suicide is killing a person your loved ones holds dear.
- Suicide threats is threatening to kill a person your loved ones hold dear.
- Suicidal thoughts is playing with the idea of killing a person your loved ones hold dear.

 

[ptgatsby]

Oh, and I had seen way back when I had my second MBTI done in a text of stats for type that I was the only preference that was definitively linked to depression (i.e. increased probability over E). That was around 10 years ago now.

If I remember correctly, the two major factors are I and neuroticism, both reasoned to be contributors because I's have less positive emotions and high neurotics have more negative emotions (well, emotional priming, if you will).

I vaguely remember there being a connection to indirect effects, such as T being related to social bonding, which also affects depression... and N being correlated with intelligent/unstable factors, which somewhat relates to depression.

(Very iffy on this though... the only time I read about it is after my cousin killed himself, essentially randomly, at what should of been the high of his life. Long time ago now.)

 

[Veneti]

When someone is suicidal, this gives them an immediate power card over everyone who cares about them. I spent many years alongside someone who was suicidal and because of this, everyone immediately catered to this person in a desperate attempt to quell off this severe depression. Their feelings were of greater value than everyone around them because they were in a state of emergency. There was an underlying fear to ever offer criticism, get into just a regular spat, constant fear if they withdrew they had done themselves in. People constantly pleaded to consider some more positive alternatives to thinking, reminding them they always have someone to turn to, etc. Being in a clinical depression, this person would throw off every attempt at help as useless and wasn't inclined towards medical help either.

I have loved such people and 'tried' to be a source of support. But i never offered the basic suggestions to help clarify their thinking. For example, this person from my past believed all the problems would be fixed if they simply had someone to love. Because they saw the responsibility for their happiness as resting on another person, they would sabotage social interactions by obviously placing way too much emotional pressure immediately. People would tend to run. It was a horrible catch-22. This person was admirable and worthwhile, but their insistence on self-destruction and that help could only come from a lover gave them a power card i don't think they even were aware they were playing.

It's tragic, and important. I have no idea how to negotiate through this type of minefield. I've had to try and i come out with a lot of guilt, confusion, regret, and yet no clear idea of what i 'should' have done.

Anyone share this type of experience and have success?

The problem with some people is that they lean on you, the more you take the more they lean.

I've grown to lack any tolerance for these sorts of people, its better that they fall early and learn to pick themselves up and take the fight forward in life. Only they can improve themselves and worse still is that the longer you prop them up the more that comes crashing down.

The only thing that you can do (from my own experience with someone) is to provide them with stimulus or diversionary type things that can point them in the right direction (Self esteem etc) and provide a helping hand. But absolutely no leaning and consistency amongst all those that know the person (so they don't go looking for help).

One thing to absolutely make sure is that they are not doing drugs...and removing them from other connections that can take them down as well.

It’s a pity, but once a flatmates brother was in this sort of situation and I spent quite a lot of time with him to help him through, he was just down on his luck. I motivated him and he got a job, got a flat and was doing ok. I though he was ok, after moving away for a few years I found out he'd died... his loser mates had got to him and he'd gone off the rails, died whilst jumping over a wall because he didn't have the money to pay the cab fare.