Sugar and Sympathy

[Lady_X]

the dictionary says empathy is the ability to share and understand the feelings of another...that's what i do.

and sympathy is to feel pity or sorrow for someone...i do that to at times but only with people i don't know...usually i empathize with people that are close to me but that does not mean i'm hurt to the degree they are and i can still help them.

 

[Mole]

I would emphasise that sympathy and empathy are both good.

However empathy does need to be formally learnt, just like reading and writing.

Empathy can't be done naturally, like sympathy.

And empathy can't be willed, any more than reading and writing can be willed.

And like reading and writing, empathy needs to be learnt and practised in a formal setting.

All of us like to think we are good empathic people, when we are in fact good sympathetic people.

To discover that we have never learnt to empathise is a blow to the ego.

Just as not being able to read and write is a blow to the ego.

 

[Tiltyred]

I don't think sharing someone's pain keeps me from being able to help them. For me, also, feeling what other people feel is not counter-intuitive. I've never been any other way. If anything, I've had to learn to disengage (and I'm still not very good at it).

So I dunno, Victor. I'm still confused.

 

[Mole]

I don't think sharing someone's pain keeps me from being able to help them. For me, also, feeling what other people feel is not counter-intuitive. I've never been any other way. If anything, I've had to learn to disengage (and I'm still not very good at it).

So I dunno, Victor. I'm still confused.

Learning to empathise is like learning to ride a bicycle.

Talking about balance doesn't help much, but getting on the bicycle and falling off, give you the experience of being balanced and being unbalanced.

So you learn the distinction between balance and unbalanced.

In the same way you learn to empathise by practising it.

At first you wont' be able to do it, so you need to start off right at the very beginning.

You need to learn to master some very simple rules at first.

And as you practise these rules you start to get a feel for what empathy is all about.

And as you start to get your 'balance' in empathy, you can take the rules further and further, just as you take your bike further and further as you get more confidence.

However it is very important to master the simple rules of empathy first, just as it is important to learn to balance on your bike, before you take trips into the countryside.

It's like learning any new skill - you need to learn the basics first, and it is important to learn them in a formal setting.

 

[Lady_X]

I would emphasise that sympathy and empathy are both good.

However empathy does need to be formally learnt, just like reading and writing.

Empathy can't be done naturally, like sympathy.

And empathy can't be willed, any more than reading and writing can be willed.

And like reading and writing, empathy needs to be learnt and practised in a formal setting.

All of us like to think we are good empathic people, when we are in fact good sympathetic people.

To discover that we have never learnt to empathise is a blow to the ego.

Just as not being able to read and write is a blow to the ego.

well..sorry to say it but i believe the opposite to be true.

 

[Mole]

well..sorry to say it but i believe the opposite to be true.

I know, I was hoping to win you over to my side.

 

[Lady_X]

i don't do sides victor.

i walk the line

 

[Mole]

i don't do sides victor.

i walk the line

Alas.

 

[A Schnitzel]

No one can literally feel another persons pain. It's physically impossible.

Secondly there is no innate knowledge. So both empathy and sympathy come as response to stimuli. Which one comes easier is up for debate, I don't know enough about neuroscience to have any answers. I'd hazard a guess that they are both similar enough that you couldn't tell them apart on a brain scan.

 

[Lady_X]

you must not have experienced it but that does not make it so. you can hurt for someone else...it's an emotional pain...it's certainly not the same as a smashed finger and i suspect you'd probably have to be a pretty emotional person to understand.

 

[A Schnitzel]

you must not have experienced it but that does not make it so. you can hurt for someone else...it's an emotional pain...it's certainly not the same as a smashed finger and i suspect you'd probably have to be a pretty emotional person to understand.

I'm not denying that empathy exists, I was just setting the foundation straight because Victor was using the term rather loosely.

While empathy and sympathy are different by definition do you think they blend together? I'm not sure if I've ever felt pain for someone without feeling bad for them.

 

[Lady_X]

yes i do...i don't think you could have empathy without sympathy.

sympathy just seems like a more detached reaction.

 

[Tiltyred]

But that's a good example -- when someone around me has a smashed finger, my stomach clenches repeatedly and I get shocks in the palms of my hands, and if there's blood, maybe get lightheaded -- but all that doesn't keep me from jumping up and getting ice and bandaids or whatever seems to be needed. If anything, it makes me jump up faster. Sympathy is a catalyst rather than an inhibitor. When someone sympathizes with me, I feel strengthened and better able to deal with the situation.

If I can see that you don't feel me, whatever you say doesn't matter much. I don't trust that you understand the situation if I can't see that you feel it.

 

[Anja]

yes i do...i don't think you could have empathy without sympathy.

sympathy just seems like a more detached reaction.

Does it to you? I see it as much more attached in sort of an icky way if it is carried too far. Example: some forums I've been on someone will post an ugly news story such as a child being abducted and murdered and there will be this effusive outpouring of sympathy in a thread that just seems to hang on to the sadness of it all the the extent of being unhealthy preoccupation. And also beginning to sound insincere, I might add.

Something else besides sympathy for another is being served there, I think.

I suppose empathy to the extreme would also be attached in a way which could be unhealthy. I certainly do understand your statement about seeming to be able to feel someone else's emotional pain and it was troubling to me for many years.

I'd end up scratching my head and wondering exactly whose pain it was that I was experiencing.

 

[Lady_X]

i guess you're right anja. i guess i'm just speaking about how i personally experience the two.
i know when i feel sympathetic towards someone i just want to make them happy or feel cared for in some way...i might feel like doing some gesture to show i care and then i go on about my business.
when i feel empathetic...say i'm listening to a story about someones lost love...or stories about their troubled childhood...i feel really broken up about it...broken hearted...and it stays with me much longer...but i still feel sympathy too i guess and want to help lift their spirits a bit by showing them how strong they are now having gone through it...or the valuable lessons they learned or something

what am i even talking about? i think it's late...

 

[Mole]

... they [sympathy and empathy] are both similar enough that you couldn't tell them apart on a brain scan.

We perceive by making distinctions.

And the more distinctions, the more we see.

And if we don't learn new distinctions, we blind ourselves.

The distinction between sympathy and empathy is more than 3,000 years old.

It is well worth learning.

But there is enormous resistance.

So it is the resistance that is most important.

What is the resistance?

 

[INTJMom]

Sure, your husband is sympathising with you.

Naturally he feels the same as you, and he feels uncomfortable, so he tries to fix his discomfort.

...

I disagree with this assessment... because my husband... indeed most husbands, do the same thing.

My husband doesn't feel my pain, he feels his own pain at having an unhappy wife. It's too bad he's too dense to know that he should put his arm around me... and just sit quietly with me for a bit... and maybe let me talk about my feelings and get them out in the open with someone who's supposed to care... and say, I know how you feel... I don't blame you for feeling that way... I'd feel the same way if I were you...

There. Feelings validated. Trauma over. Move on with life.

 

[INTJMom]

I don't think sharing someone's pain keeps me from being able to help them. For me, also, feeling what other people feel is not counter-intuitive. I've never been any other way. If anything, I've had to learn to disengage (and I'm still not very good at it).

So I dunno, Victor. I'm still confused.

I agree with you.
Keep doing it your own way.
I'm sure you're helping.

 

[INTJMom]

But that's a good example -- when someone around me has a smashed finger, my stomach clenches repeatedly and I get shocks in the palms of my hands, and if there's blood, maybe get lightheaded -- but all that doesn't keep me from jumping up and getting ice and bandaids or whatever seems to be needed. If anything, it makes me jump up faster. Sympathy is a catalyst rather than an inhibitor. When someone sympathizes with me, I feel strengthened and better able to deal with the situation.

If I can see that you don't feel me, whatever you say doesn't matter much. I don't trust that you understand the situation if I can't see that you feel it.

ExACtly!

 

[INTJMom]

No one can literally feel another persons pain. It's physically impossible.

Secondly there is no innate knowledge. So both empathy and sympathy come as response to stimuli. Which one comes easier is up for debate, I don't know enough about neuroscience to have any answers. I'd hazard a guess that they are both similar enough that you couldn't tell them apart on a brain scan.

I agree with both of these points.

Some people feel neither empathy nor sympathy and need to learn both.