Sugar and Sympathy

[nolla]

Good thread... I never did understand the difference. I think it is getting clearer.

So, is the detachment in empathy the only real difference? Is it only a less subjective breed of sympathy?

 

[Anja]

Sympathy does have an inequal, self-directed implication for me. Empathy moves us toward healing. Each has it's place and time.

Maybe it's the difference between care-taking and care-giving?

 

[Snow Turtle]

Most of the time sympathy is used simply because it's difficult to emphathise with a situation that's never been experienced before. All we can do is say... I'm sorry to hear about that experience - it's intellectual understanding of the situation while never truly grasping the exact feelings and thoughts.

I wouldn't say empathy is better though. Somebody can be empathic but do nothing at all with the understanding or feeling. Sympathy is at least always directed towards someone at least and usually well intentioned. Taken too far it becomes pity...

 

[kuranes]

I've never understood the difference between the two properly either. I think sympathy can be genuine, and there is a time for just listening and commiserating with someone, and a time for giving them constructive advice. Usually they occur in that same order, too, unless there is a time sensitivity to the trigger incident. I thought they were both part of the same process.

People have alluded to Fi versus Fe, also. * shrugs *

 

[Anja]

Sympathy doesn't move the person it is directed to towards action. It can, if carried too far, allow a person to stay stuck while we feel sorry for him. For some it becomes habit to garner sympathy and allow others to take care of him because it implies he is unable to do it for himself. Developed as a pattern, one begins to view the person toward whom it is directed as a pathetic soul. And the recipient doesn't learn new ways of dealing with a challenge because he doesn't need to. So, from my perspective large doses of sympathy are emotionally crippling.

An intended kindness turned into enabling.

Empathy says, "I've walked in your shoes. I know the feelings you are having right now. I'll stand by while you stand up."

 

[kuranes]

I think the whole self reliance "bootstraps" thing can be carried too far, though, at times. Throwing someone a rope 10 feet long when they are drowning 20 feet out and saying "I'm meeting you halfway." Just as people accepting charity without making any efforts to change their situation is undesirable. But we hear much more about the latter than the former these days.

 

[Anja]

Isn't that true, kuranes? We have become a nation of people who give lip-service to aid or throw money at the problem without any emotional investment.

In my personal relationships offering sympathy/empathy does not mean long-term emotional attachment. I think that needs to be clear between both people.

It sounds like you are describing a situation where there are unspoken expectations or someone who offered more than they are actually willing to give. That would be frustrating.

 

[INTJMom]

Sympathy feels good. It feels good to sympathise. And it feels good to be sympathised with.

And when we feel good, it is natural to think we are good.

But sympathy is poisonous. Sympathy is the white sugar of the emotional world.

Sympathy means to feel the same as, so sympathy adds nothing, like sugar.

Sympathy only reinforces what we are feeling.

Sympathy does not allow the feeling to flow and develop into other feelings.

Sympathy is uniquely unhelpful.

Yet it is the norm to seek sympathy here.

Which leads to nastiness when we don't feel and think the same.

Are we addicted to the white sugar of sympathy?

My sister is an INFP. She has an aversion to sympathy.
She sees it as pity.
She will not give it nor receive it.

I understand what you're saying about sympathy being unhelpful because surely, for some Types, it is.
You're just helping them dig their rut wider and deeper.

However, I have one facet to add to the discussion and that is this:
According to Naomi Quenk in her book "Beside Ourselves" she says that when some INTJs or INFJs are in the grip of their inferior, i.e. "beside themselves", "Expressions of understanding, sympathy and empathy aid the return of equilibrium for some, but not for all introverted intuitives."

I see a person's attitude towards sympathy as somewhat, if not largely, Type-driven. The reason I bring this up is that for the longest time, my sister despised me and rejected me for needing what she regarded as "pity". The reason I myself need this empathy or sympathy when I'm beside myself is because normally I am totally out of touch with my feelings... as though I don't have a right to have feelings. When someone validates my right to have my feelings, it helps me get back to normal again. I don't go wallowing deeper in the mire. It helps me get out.

Therefore I think those who despise pity for themselves don't have the right to despise others who may need it.

 

[Anja]

Interesting to think of it in terms of type, Mom.

Yes, when I am in distress, it helps to know that someone understands my unhappiness. And I still know, in fact am possessive about, my need to get something done about it.

 

[INTJMom]

Interesting to think of it in terms of type, Mom.

Yes, when I am in distress, it helps to know that someone understands my unhappiness. And I still know, in fact am possessive about, my need to get something done about it.

Quenk says that INFPs need their feelings "validated" when they're in the grip of the inferior.

 

[Anja]

I believe that is true for me. I know it's one of the "stuck" areas between my ISTJ husband and I. When I need validation he reads it as a request for help and sometimes overdoes trying to "fix" it for me.

I have to stop him from getting into my space and explain that all I need is for my feelings to be heard in order to get in gear.

And he resists validating my uncomfortable feelings because it makes him feel uncomfortable for me. He wants to jump right into repairing when it's not his responsibility to do so.

I don't know if that ever ends. Apparently not. But a reminder is usually good enough to help him back off from "fixing." Take a rest, Dude. The dilemma of the "good guy."

Edit: To be fair I need to acknowledge my part in this. When I was younger it was handy to take advantage of his generosity in this area. And I had to learn that I don't always have to have someone else around to validate me. I needed to learn that my own self-validation would sometimes need to be enough.

 

[01011010]

I think some take offense to atypical answers. Ones that are stark and naked. Without, the covering of social politeness. Yet, it's not rude or personal either. Forum exchanges seem to require more to convey a message.

 

[Mole]

Do you believe sympathy is always incorrect, or less preferred over empathy? Would you agree there is a time for both?

I feel your frustration here in thread and your desire to emphasize growth versus stagnation in self-pity.

Do share your thoughts; I am interested.

Thank you for your interest and thank you for asking me to share my thoughts.

So - sympathy is good, as empathy is good - it's that they are very different.

Sympathy is natural, almost every person feels sympathy. Mothers and fathers feel sympathy for babies, and babies feel sympathy for mum and dad.

We learnt, for instance, by imitation - a form of sympathy.

And just as we learn to speak our language naturally at home, so we learn to sympathise naturally at home.

So learning to speak our language and learning to sympathise are intuitive.

But we are compelled by law to go to an institution with specially trained staff to learn to read and write.

So learning to read and write is counter-intuitive.

So learning to speak and sympathise is intuitive and learning to read and write is counter-intuitive.

And as you may have guessed by now, empathy is also counter-intuitive.

So empathy doesn't come naturally, it must be learnt and practiced like reading and writing. So that we may become empathically literate.

So empathy and sympathy are equally good, but they are quite different - just like you and me.

 

[Lady_X]

well...i'm confused. i feel more empathetic than sympathetic towards people most of the time. i often cannot tell the difference between my own pain and someone else's. i'm crazy empathetic.

 

[Mole]

I wouldn't say empathy is better though.

Yes, you are quite right.

In trying to get across the distinction between sympathy and empathy, I became extreme to the extent that I gave the impression that sympathy is bad.

But as you know, sympathy is good and natural.

In fact sympathy is intuitive.

But, and it is a big but, empathy is counter-intuitive.

So sympathy and empathy are not the same.

 

[Mole]

well...i'm confused. i feel more empathetic than sympathetic towards people most of the time. i often cannot tell the difference between my own pain and someone else's. i'm crazy empathetic.

Well dear Erin, if you can't tell the difference between your own pain and someone else's, you are being sympathetic.

And so when you sympathise with someone's pain, there are now two people in pain.

But if you were to empathise with someone's pain, you would know what they are feeling, and you would let them know that you understood their pain.

But most of all, you would be in a position to help them.

Two drowning people can't help one another. But one person safe on the bank, can save a drowning person in the river.

 

[Giggly]

It's a distinction I've read before, but, honestly, I can't grasp it. Why is empathy helpful while sympathy is cheap?

I agree with you. I find it strange that anyone could pervert either one.

But, although I don't understand this particular thing, I acknowledge that some people are very picky when it comes to the emotions they give and receive.

 

[Lady_X]

Well dear Erin, if you can't tell the difference between your own pain and someone else's, you are being sympathetic.

And so when you sympathise with someone's pain, there are now two people in pain.

But if you were to empathise with someone's pain, you would know what they are feeling, and you would let them know that you understood their pain.

But most of all, you would be in a position to help them.

Two drowning people can't help one another. But one person safe on the bank, can save a drowning person in the river.

i thought empathy was to feel it with them and not to just understand it...you're confusing me.

 

[Mole]

I believe that is true for me. I know it's one of the "stuck" areas between my ISTJ husband and I. When I need validation he reads it as a request for help and sometimes overdoes trying to "fix" it for me.

I have to stop him from getting into my space and explain that all I need is for my feelings to be heard in order to get in gear.

And he resists validating my uncomfortable feelings because it makes him feel uncomfortable for me. He wants to jump right into repairing when it's not his responsibility to do so.

I don't know if that ever ends. Apparently not. But a reminder is usually good enough to help him back off from "fixing." Take a rest, Dude. The dilemma of the "good guy."

Edit: To be fair I need to acknowledge my part in this. When I was younger it was handy to take advantage of his generosity in this area. And I had to learn that I don't always have to have someone else around to validate me. I needed to learn that my own self-validation would sometimes need to be enough.

Sure, your husband is sympathising with you.

Naturally he feels the same as you, and he feels uncomfortable, so he tries to fix his discomfort.

But of course he is not trying to fix your discomfort, so you resent this.

If he were to empathise with you, he would be able to validate your feelings without feeing discomfort himself, and without the need to 'fix' you.

 

[Mole]

i thought empathy was to feel it with them and not to just understand it...you're confusing me.

If you were to empathise with me, you would know what I was feeling without feeling it yourself.

Also you would be able to tell me that you knew what I was feeling.

So I would no longer be alone with my feelings, and you would be in a position to help me.

Is this slightly less confusing?