Ruining kids lives?

[Xander]

My sister who is an xSFJ put it quite well to her children. "It's good to want, but that doesn't mean you're gonna get."

Seriously, hasn't being unable to get everything we want made us into more balanced people?

I'd have thought so. Also if you live all your dreams out by the time your twelve then what's left to really motivate you?

 

[reason]

I'd have thought so. Also if you live all your dreams out by the time your twelve then what's left to really motivate you?

I am sure puberty can bring such things to be motivated by!

 

[Varelse]

It's more of a roll playing game than a role playing game but it depends on your taste as to which is better.

Oblivion is based much more on player skill than Morrowind is.

See now compared to real roleplay that game is stilted and controlled like a clamp on a really long pole. Oh and the thing I absolutely abhor about this "new" idea in roleplay games on computers/ consoles is the concept that the player's capability at fighting should have anything to do with the game. I'm sorry but if I'm playing some kind of kick ass warrior then I ace your rogue in melee (usually). No amounts of furious button bashing should change that. To do otherwise would be to destroy the main thing in RPGs which is the suspension of disbelief. That's something silicon DMs don't come even close to so far.

^ See above. On Morrowind, a character with a low level sword skill couldn't even hit a crab...button mashing or not.

Sorry but I tried Morrowind and I'd rather play Pokemon and I don't like those kinds of games and hate the whole Pokemon franchise!

If you say so. I was permanently hooked once I got into the whole "did Vehk kill Nerevar, and if he did, did Vivec kill Nervar?" thing.

Noooooooo MMORPG!!! HEATHEN!!! MUST CRUCIFY!!!


on a more serious note you'd have thought that the local bullies would have cured those tendencies before they ever blossomed.

Homeschooled kid. Brat.

I know one kid who's mom tried to have him placed in advanced classes, where he'd have no idea what was going on and distract everyone else.

What is with this idea that they're your kid, therefore they must be an utter genius or awesome sports player?

 

[targobelle]

I think we need to take into account how much more time grandparents spend with children these days. There seems to be an increase in families needing to spend time together, more so than I remember when I was growing up.

A perfect example for me is my daughter as she is the only granddaughter on my husbands side of the family. And while my mom in law is in her 60's she's quite healthy and still drives, she's more tired but she can handle the 8yr old. So they go shopping and what Frankie wants Frankie gets, then I take the kids shopping and there is a big fuss b/c I can't get Frankie all that she wants and she already has too much.

It's one thing to say that we are raising a society that wants for nothing, but with both parents needing to work out of the home more and more these days we are neglecting the role that grandparents and extended family play in this and we are also neglecting the feelings of guilt in this as well.

 

[reason]

"It's interesting that being deprived of a material possession is often energetically avoided, while being deprived of a useful personal characteristic (such as patience or empathy) is often overlooked." - faith

 

[GZA]

"It's interesting that being deprived of a material possession is often energetically avoided, while being deprived of a useful personal characteristic (such as patience or empathy) is often overlooked." - faith

Thats a really great quote, I think.

Before I say more, just let me say that I'm 16, so I hope my perspective on the current generation will be interesting to some extent, and I'm really interested to hear your thoughts.

So, once again about the above quote, my dad, when we go on vacation for example, will say "so what do you want", and I never want anything (nothing material anyway, except an Edger Allen Poe bookmark ) and he says "come on, at leats get something". He was trying to make sur emy material needs were met in those cases, and even almost tried to convince me they weren't when they were, if anything, exceeded. I'd like to add that, for the record, my dad definitely puts character above all else, and there is nothing he wants more than to have intellectually and emotionally balanced children.

Are things designed more for impulse now? Yes, I think they are. Things have, apparently gotten shorter, and people do not tolerate lengthy engagements as much. I find that, for example, when other kids are listening to their iPod (*cough*materialism*cough*) they often tend to listen to a song for 30 seconds to a minute before changing to another song. TV advertising is rediculous in this sense. There is an ad for Rogers Digital Cable where there is a family who essentially says they want everything, better, faster, cheaper, and instantaneously. I find it humourous, actually, because its just asking for so much! Then theres MTV... all the shows are like that. Sweet 16? What a joke, I wouldn't flinch if I saw those kids getting decapitated Its the same deal. And all of their shows are like that, too. I used to think "If MTV is the network that expresses my agegroup, they must not think much of us", but now that I've read some of your ideas and reflected upon them, MTV may be giving a chillingly accurate portrayal of young people.

About video games... I'm not sure if they were talking about video games (I forget the exact phrasing), but someone said bright flashy colours might make the imagination go blank through overstimulation. I personally disagree... I like a game like, say, Mario because it is bright and colourful, and I can think about all the imaginative qualities of it as I play, and from time to time I even think about other things that could be in the game. In short, I think if anything games can stimulate imagination. As for RPGs, I've never been much into them. I don't play games enough to make it worthwhile.

I've heard some people say that kids now are kind of being pushed down sort of a narrow hole of sorts. I'm not sure exactly what they mean, but something about not being able to... explore more os something, but rather are instructed to do almost everything in their life. Too much structure, I guess. That can be applied very well to MBTI by the way... I think that those personalities that do best with structure will create structure while those who loathe structure will work to remove it.

 

[CzeCze]

Hmm...Many Disjointed Thoughts

Just wanted to point out that it's true that it's important so spark children's minds, but the boom in toys is actually making "professional grade" creativity more accessible to everyone including children. For instance digital video cameras and sound editing equipment. Lots of young rappers and musicians and DJs can make tracks on their computers and young film makers make movies. And I think there are dreamer and artist types who will grow up to fulfill that role of dreamer/artist whether they have nothing but their imagination or loads of money and toys growing up. They just need toys that still let them use some imagination. And have you see the Lego stores at your local mall? OMG, we would have LOVED that as a kid!

One thing I have noticed though is that there's more 'kiddie lit' for kids, but a lot of it is crap. Sugary meaningless crap on TV that's been novelized. I fear for future writers and writing because garbage in = garbage out.

As for disaffected youth -- I myself don't understand this, I was always very interested in the world around me as a teenager and enthusiastic. A lot of teens are just like that, I don't think it makes a difference how much 'stuff' they have or how much of a consumer they are. I think it has more to do with self-awareness and being exposed to the world and perhaps empathy. Of course, consumerism only affects these factors in as much as it keeps kids from getting out of the house.

 

[Xander]

I am sure puberty can bring such things to be motivated by!

Hehehehe... yeah you could have point there. Some things just come up at that time which tend to override other goals

 

[Xander]

I think we need to take into account how much more time grandparents spend with children these days. There seems to be an increase in families needing to spend time together, more so than I remember when I was growing up.

A perfect example for me is my daughter as she is the only granddaughter on my husbands side of the family. And while my mom in law is in her 60's she's quite healthy and still drives, she's more tired but she can handle the 8yr old. So they go shopping and what Frankie wants Frankie gets, then I take the kids shopping and there is a big fuss b/c I can't get Frankie all that she wants and she already has too much.

It's one thing to say that we are raising a society that wants for nothing, but with both parents needing to work out of the home more and more these days we are neglecting the role that grandparents and extended family play in this and we are also neglecting the feelings of guilt in this as well.

Good point. My family has always been big on the whole "what can I buy you" and it's always been hurtful that at every birthday and christmas I get a flood of money. It's not that I'm ungrateful, I'm usually feeling really guilty and trying to figure out what I do to deserve the money, but it'd be nice just once that my family knew enough about any one of my many hobbies or interests to get me something as a complete surprise. Hell I spend ages agonising over such things trying to get something for people that they'll love but wouldn't have thought of getting or wouldn't be able to get themselves. I do complain about people on these occasions like my father who has hobbies but if he wanted it then he's either bought it or has ruled it out. Talk about awkward to buy for!! Bloomin ENTJs!

Anyhow, this problem of guilt is another facet of the consumerism. We could spend a little time with our children, as I try to do with my nephews, doing what they like doing and joining in but it's so much easier and more to the forefront of our minds, to sate their wants and buy them something ever increasing their ability to occupy themselves and increasing their divorce from their parents and the guidance they give.

Basically if you don't want your kids to be lead by the thinking of the latest pop singer then why get them an iPod where it's so easy for them to switch off and listen to their teachings?

 

[ArtlessFuture]

It sure seems like something is happening to the younger generations these days. I have a niece and nephew, the oldest is 8 years old...and while they arent spoiled by things, they are definitely lacking creativity and imagination. When ever me and my husband come to visit, and we adults are doing something (like watching tv or playing cards) the kids just hang around and watch, and get whiny by saying there is nothing to do, that they are bored, etc. I always tell them to go outside! Use their imagination! I give them a hard time, because I was an only child growing up. I always played by myself and didnt count on tv or parents to entertain. Anyway kids are definitely not as self sufficient in that way anymore. But as someone else mentioned, the internet and technology are making it so young adults are able to produce videos, music, and sell their art. So that is a positive side to things, also.

 

[ama]

I agree with you guys, especially the part about the loud blinking electronic toys. I always cringe inside when I see an ad for one of those on TV. If all it does is flash lights and shout words or songs or whatever then after a short time there's nothing else to do with it. It doesn't have any creative possibilities. Giving kids things like action figures, dolls, art supplies/sports equipment etc. is a much better idea. With good toys you can't just push a bunch of buttons and stand there and watch. You have to use your imagination. Kid who aren't given many opportunities to exercise their creativity are missing out.

However, I don't think video games are a complete waste of time either. The games today are light years ahead of those of the 80s. Video games today incorporate a lot of complex problem-solving tasks. Progressing through them requires a lot of patience and strategy. Video games shouldn't be the only way a child spend their time, but I don't they're nearly as bad as the media makes them out to be.

 

[Xander]

The problem is not with the design of the entertainment, yes they include all of these cerebral things and are mind expanding yadda yadda blah blah but like with all those convenience devices in the home and at work turning people into little more than in trays and out trays we are turning our kids into cogs in a machine. Everything is fed to them, all the parameters are highlighted, all the safety aspects have been explored and defined to the nth degree, the instructions are clear and comprehensive.... basically we've mastered the whole toy and entertainment side so that there's no problems to solve. Sure there are the designed problems to solve but if you play these games enough all the problems fall into a couple of categories and the solution is often very obvious if you've encountered that type of problem before. It leads to kids who can only solve problems if they are given a sturdy platform to work from, clear instructions, support and no waiting time before they can do something.

"When Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept for there were no more worlds to conquer."

There are less and less things to conquer for children. We've removed the spikes from hedgehogs, we've wrapped bubble wrap around the thorns and we've carpeted the floor in thick foam rubber. Do this to people and they take up base jumping to feel alive. Do this with kids and they will think that this is how the world works, why wouldn't they it's their only experience of it.

Yes kids should have fun in their childhood.
Yes they should be treated nicely.
No they shouldn't think that everything is made of sweets and that bunnies never die.
No they shouldn't have each and every minute filled with easily accessible entertainment.

Admittedly neither should the parents have a life which is work, serve and sleep but that's another matter.

 

[cafe]

Well, really, it's hard to do (or not do) all the things you are supposed to do when you are a parent. And believe me, everybody has an opinion. You really cannot hope to win. You've got the grandparents, the teachers, the neighbors, strangers at the grocery store and they all have something to say about the way you are doing your job.

Seriously. My mother-in-law thinks I should be home schooling all four kids with a good Bible-based curriculum. My mother-out-law (hubby's step-mom) thinks that all kids that are home schooled or go to Christian school will go hog wild the moment they are left unattended (despite any evidence you offer her to the contrary or the fact that public school kids sometimes go hog wild, too). My dad's gf thinks I should go to work full-time, keep the house spotless, cook full meals and never eat out, and God only knows what my mother thinks I should be doing.

People want the kids to go out and play then they complain that the kids are out playing by themselves (you should be watching them at all times because of child molesters, etc) then you go outside and hang out while they play then people complain because you're outside messing around when your house isn't clean. Then you bring the kids in so you can clean the house then people complain that they aren't outside playing . . . you get the idea.

You're supposed to have them in activities, but not too many. You are supposed to pay for said activities, but not work so much that you don't spend time with the kids. You are supposed to sit down at the dinner table each evening for a home-cooked nutritious non-obesity causing supper despite working to pay for the activities and taking time out for going to the activities.

They are supposed to do all their homework, go to activities, sit down with the family for dinner, play outside, use their imaginations, read for fun, do chores, have and visit with friends, spend quality time with their family, and around here, go to church. Then they are also supposed to go to bed in plenty of time to get ten hours sleep and be on time for school, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. Their clothes must fit, be clean, wrinkle-free, in good-repair, and nice, but not too nice (everyone knows it's a waste of money to buy expensive trendy clothes for growing kids). Ideally, all the clothes should be purchased from yard-sales. Except for underwear and socks. Those should be purchased new and remain snowy white and hole-free until they are outgrown. Without using any chemicals that might damage the environment.

Now you are also supposed to buy them toys they don't want because they are good for them. But be careful. If they are from China, they are probably poisonous.

You know what I think? You ain't offerin' to pay for it, clean it, babysit it, or chauffeur it?

 

[reason]

Cafe, that is the best thing I have read all day. Have a gold star

 

[Xander]

You know what I think? You ain't offerin' to pay for it, clean it, babysit it, or chauffeur it?

Oh hell yeah. Unless it comes to legal intervention then if your not the parent then guess what, it don't matter a fig what you think.

I can see how that may be applied to this thread but I'm not interested in treating the symptoms, only the cause. Symptoms are personal and individual, the cause is impersonal and objective.....mostly....well ish...

 

[cafe]

I can see how that may be applied to this thread but I'm not interested in treating the symptoms, only the cause. Symptoms are personal and individual, the cause is impersonal and objective.....mostly....well ish...

I don't know what things are like elsewhere, but here, the basic of living are pricey- housing, utilities, transportation, food, you pretty much have to work like a dog, probably both parents (assuming there are two) in order to just keep those things going. That leaves parents with little time and energy for kids, but the expectations for parents have not lowered, they've risen. Kids are expected to be under adult supervision at all times. Electronics, etc, OTOH, are very cheap, comparatively speaking and they keep kids entertained indoors where they are safe from all the things you hear about on the news.

How this is all supposed to be fixed, I'm not sure. I think if either prices for the necessities were lowered or wages kept the same with the work week shortened could be a step in the right direction. But how does one do that? The US, at least, is bleeding good paying jobs like a hemophiliac that just ate a bottle full of aspirin and cut off a leg.

But you never know. It might be so ingrained by now that folks would just spend the extra money on junk or would use the extra time to get a second job to buy more junk.


Our kids spend a lot of time indoors with electronics, but one is normally reading fan-fic, one spends a lot of time playing with photo-shop, another likes to build roads and cars, etc on the games they play. I only have one kid that likes to watch cartoons and play video games the normal way as primary hobbies. Even he does not have the latest and greatest. He has a trusty Nintendo64 and a GameCube bought almost two years ago for Christmas that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.

Youngest kid is asking for every truck toy he sees on TV this year, but I know how this game works. If I buy them, he will soon have them dismantled, with half the parts lost and the other half scattered around the house for me to step on and he'll be back to building stuff around the house with cardboard boxes, stuff I don't want him building with, and tape. Last year he only wanted goldfish and hermit crabs.

Anyway, the media with the constant reports of kids being kidnapped and murdered, and all the guilt-based advertising is also not very helpful.

We've been fortunate in that we didn't ever have money to buy the kids much when they were little and so our kids don't really think that they are supposed to have everything they want and we also live in a place where most of our kids' friends don't have a lot of fancy stuff either (now it's nice, when they get older you have to fight that this area is pretty much a dead end with little to offer besides meth and sex).

 

[cascadeco]

I don't know what things are like elsewhere, but here, the basic of living are pricey- housing, utilities, transportation, food, you pretty much have to work like a dog, probably both parents (assuming there are two) in order to just keep those things going. That leaves parents with little time and energy for kids, but the expectations for parents have not lowered, they've risen. Kids are expected to be under adult supervision at all times. Electronics, etc, OTOH, are very cheap, comparatively speaking and they keep kids entertained indoors where they are safe from all the things you hear about on the news.
------------
Anyway, the media with the constant reports of kids being kidnapped and murdered, and all the guilt-based advertising is also not very helpful.

Hmm...it sounds like you live in an area where there are a lot of expectations/judgements towards how you raise your kids and whether you're doing it the 'right' way. Or actually maybe this is universal among the parenting world. I don't mean to offend at all; since I don't have kids of my own I can't possibly understand how complicated it must get.

Your comments on 'safe from all the things you hear about on the news' are interesting to me.

I do think it's a shame regarding the media; I feel like a lot of people are too afraid of things. Yes, horrible, awful things happen, but I also think it's blown out of proportion, and people live in more fear than is...reasonable. I guess I don't find the media incredibly reliable/credible though, so their 'scare tactics' make me really angry rather than fearful, and guilt-tripping make me laugh or also make me angry.... Hence, I pay little attention to ANY news these days, because I don't value the deliverer - i.e. the media/advertisements. Explaining this to kids, though, when they may see/hear things from their peers, would be the challenge.

 

[Xander]

Cafe, I've long been of the opinion that there's some group of people somewhere who seem to think that it's okay to grind down everyone into workaholics and have them doing nothing but toiling 24/7. I'm right up there with the other idealists who think that there should be shorter working hours and more support to do "other things", I just know I'm an idealist

Recently an advert came out over here saying that their latest mobile allowed you to work whilst out of the office and that isn't this incredible as now you will have more free time. Personally I only came to the conclusion that the same people who think that all waking hours are possible working hours would only see this as yet another method of getting more work into the same number of hours.

Anyhow I do see the problem, my father was often not at home and was more thank likely knackered when he was at home. It's taken till now, twenty five or so years later, for us to even start on the whole "not just parent - child but friends" thing. My saviour was my mother who only worked part time but I know latch key kids and I've seen how it's inescapable and how it can be really good for the kids.

"Dad works all the hours available to get me this toy car, I love it"

The thing is that this seems the exception. Perhaps it's intelligence? Some families seem to go through hardship and no backlash occurs whilst others hit one small (relatively) bump in the road and their kids seem to draw validation for virtual sociopathy!

 

[cafe]

Cafe, I've long been of the opinion that there's some group of people somewhere who seem to think that it's okay to grind down everyone into workaholics and have them doing nothing but toiling 24/7. I'm right up there with the other idealists who think that there should be shorter working hours and more support to do "other things", I just know I'm an idealist

Some countries manage it though, don't they? They don't all have 60-70 hour work weeks with no sick days and two weeks of vacation as the norm. Seems like developed nations could do a little better than that, but what do I know?

Recently an advert came out over here saying that their latest mobile allowed you to work whilst out of the office and that isn't this incredible as now you will have more free time. Personally I only came to the conclusion that the same people who think that all waking hours are possible working hours would only see this as yet another method of getting more work into the same number of hours.

Yes, and many companies would see it the same.

Anyhow I do see the problem, my father was often not at home and was more thank likely knackered when he was at home. It's taken till now, twenty five or so years later, for us to even start on the whole "not just parent - child but friends" thing. My saviour was my mother who only worked part time but I know latch key kids and I've seen how it's inescapable and how it can be really good for the kids.

"Dad works all the hours available to get me this toy car, I love it"

The thing is that this seems the exception. Perhaps it's intelligence? Some families seem to go through hardship and no backlash occurs whilst others hit one small (relatively) bump in the road and their kids seem to draw validation for virtual sociopathy!

I think that if things are semi-healthy overall and there is real (but not ridiculously traumatic) hardship, that a lot of kids can get their heads around that and cope. Then there are kids that are kind of forced into a pseudo-adult roles by their parents through co-dependency of some kind. That can cause them to kind of have it together on the outside, but need to get some things worked out before they can be okay with themselves on the inside. And you get the overly pampered who think every little inconvenience is a life crisis and you also have the truly traumatized. I guess there are others, too, but those seem like the major groups.

Personally, I am protective, but I've never really been able to get real excited about stuff. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to take my kids to Disney World once before they are grown, though. Our focus has been more of trying to be a stepping stone to normalcy for our kids than Sugar Daddies and buddies. Who knows? Maybe our kids will not realize how good they had it and smother their kids with all the latest and greatest crap that they wanted as kids but didn't get. I hope if they do they will let me take the little boogers camping sans electronics sometimes.

 

[Xander]

Some countries manage it though, don't they? They don't all have 60-70 hour work weeks with no sick days and two weeks of vacation as the norm. Seems like developed nations could do a little better than that, but what do I know?

Some countries have real low theft rates... I think it's the same ones that remove your hands for it. Doesn't mean it's progress though right?

I think that if things are semi-healthy overall and there is real (but not ridiculously traumatic) hardship, that a lot of kids can get their heads around that and cope. Then there are kids that are kind of forced into a pseudo-adult roles by their parents through co-dependency of some kind. That can cause them to kind of have it together on the outside, but need to get some things worked out before they can be okay with themselves on the inside. And you get the overly pampered who think every little inconvenience is a life crisis and you also have the truly traumatized. I guess there are others, too, but those seem like the major groups.

I think the prize could run into the millions if someone could come up with a unified theory that would lead to "healthy" kids. I guess at some point you've got to stop worrying about the minutia and figure that if they are happy and capable of making their way in the world then job done really.

Personally, I am protective, but I've never really been able to get real excited about stuff. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to take my kids to Disney World once before they are grown, though. Our focus has been more of trying to be a stepping stone to normalcy for our kids than Sugar Daddies and buddies. Who knows? Maybe our kids will not realize how good they had it and smother their kids with all the latest and greatest crap that they wanted as kids but didn't get. I hope if they do they will let me take the little boogers camping sans electronics sometimes.

Speaking as someone who got some of the fancy toys, though Disney world was a definite no no, the best memories for me have nothing to do with what was there... more who was there.

As for friends versus parent-child relationships... I kinda think that it should be a bit like when you work for someone who you get on with. Sure you can have a laugh and the sarcasm isn't all one way but at the end of the day when the boss says jump you still ask how high.