[Type 5] relationships with e5 males

[the state i am in]

this thread is sparked by the tom condon videos elsewhere. they really touched a nerve for me as an e5. i spoke with a female friend who knows quite a few females dating other e5 males who provided kind of a wake up call for me too.

commitment issues? boundary issues? indecisiveness? stutter of action? fear of being overwhelmed by external forces? lack of affection?

i know it's gotta be different for intp, intj, and infj. i feel like infjs struggle the most to figure out what is right for them. whereas intps have the most difficulty feeling emotion, and intjs have the most difficulty emotionally CONNECTING.

the tom condon videos talked about feeling like one's will is overwhelmed and obscured by a hypersensitve reaction to the needs o others and an immediate response pulling in the opposite direction to assert an overly strong boundary because the previous one was too thin. it talked about identifying one's power with external forces, both positively and negatively, rather than getting up the courage to make one's own decisions and instead overthinking/trying to discover more information rather than remove extraneous.

does this resonate? has anyone figured this out? e5s who have strong relationship perspectives or others who can pinpoint keys to e5 growth?

 

[Uytuun]

I was going to make a thread about fives and expectations because that video is still on my mind as well. But I'm a lady. Mostly. I'll post anyway.

I'll tell you one anecdote I'll always remember...when I was 9 or so a little boy (I didn't particularly like him, just neutral, I imagine it would have been a little different had I liked him) told me he was going to marry me or wanted to marry me one day. I was absolutely TERRIFIED by what he'd said. Like completely overwhelmed and undermined and couldn't sleep for two days until I burst out in tears and told my mother in a fit of sheer panic. She calmed me down and laughed at it and told me I didn't have to do anything I didn't want, but this apparently didn't occur to me at all at first. That boy's expectations were pulling me apart completely and I felt utterly powerless and in no position to resist.

The experience sums up how threatened I still feel when people expect stuff of me that I deep down feel I don't want to give or can't give or am not sure I want to give or I anticipate might put me in a position where I'm forced to give what I don't really want. It's a defence mechanism because otherwise there is nothing that can stop the external force. Once I don't feel threatened anymore (some people filter in sideways or over time rather than start banging on my door) there is still the issue of maintaining boundaries. It's actually even more tricky because our default and crude NO response to threatening stuff is disabled in that mode.

I definitely struggle with this most in the love department. Not so much socially. I think it helps to voice your concerns. I know that when I get that uneasy knot in my stomach and I feel undermined and angry at people for suddenly making my day a lot more complicated, it's time to get a different perspective/a grip. I think it's important to learn to distinguish between being selective and yelling no automatically because something is pulling at you.

Oh and could you elaborate on INTJs having difficulty connecting?

 

[cascadeco]

I was going to make a thread about fives and expectations because that video is still on my mind as well. But I'm a lady. Mostly. I'll post anyway.

The video is still on my mind too.

I'll tell you one anecdote I'll always remember...when I was 9 or so a little boy (I didn't particularly like him, just neutral) told me he was going to marry me or wanted to marry me one day. I was absolutely TERRIFIED by what he'd said. Like completely overwhelmed and undermined and couldn't sleep for two days until I burst out in tears and told my mother in a fit of sheer panic. She calmed me down and laughed at it and told me I didn't have to do anything I didn't want, but this apparently didn't occur to me at all at first. That boy's expectations were pulling me apart completely and I felt utterly powerless and in no position to resist.

And this is a great example of it. I'm the same way when it comes to relationships (notably romantic). It's like I somehow initially feel I have absolutely no choice. Yes, powerless. Constricted, suffocating. It's also why the 'confusion of action and will' was so striking to me.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

That video kind of hit home for me as well. I’d already been thinking lately about this page I read, about e5s hoarding things like time and affection. I’d always recognized I have a strange relationship to time (so much that close friends have always noticed it too), and that being affectionate really drains me: but I’d never thought of it as hoarding before. I'm not particularly eager to admit this, but calling it 'hoarding' seems to fit.

The Five, with his fixed resources, finds it difficult to give time or money or love because the fear is that people won't give back, they will just take and take. All Enneagram styles have a worldview of deprivation and this is the form the Five has to deal with. This is a world of scarcity.

I had problems with this page when I first read it, but the Tom Condon video is putting that into perspective a little bit. I’m going to have to do more thinking (but of course) about how this hoarding fits in with what’s said in the video. I just wanted to drop this ‘e5s and hoarding’ bit into the conversation, it seems relevant. My initial thought is that it makes sense to be afraid of people not giving back if the boundaries (my feelings vs. the other’s feelings) are obscure.

 

[MiasmaResonance]

"i feel like infjs struggle the most to figure out what is right for them. whereas intps have the most difficulty feeling emotion, and intjs have the most difficulty emotionally CONNECTING."

How true.

 

[the state i am in]

i love the responses so far.

i definitely have the fear of not being able to say no. wolfy linked information about an "ask" vs a "guess" culture in the infj japan thread. i identify with "guess." i rely on high-context (sensitive?) information to interpret what is likely and would be more focused on acting appropriately/with anticipation of others expectatoins. the mere thought of asking for something that someone did not want to give me seems humiliating. i am afraid of people who will just blatantly ask for something, because i feel totally hesitant and unconfident when trying to express my will. like because they've asked, i am only powerful if i find an external reason why i cannot meet their request. i cannot just say, no, i don't want to do that. when i do it feels forced and childish.

and i have felt this in so many avenues. social situations that required me to participate in a way that i would have found embarrassing or likely/potentially embarrassing.

it's no surprise that i took on such extreme aloofness for most of my adolescence. no one would ask for anything. if i did respond, they would just see seething disdain that would make them retract a request (think of the intp eye roll glare intended to put you in your place).

i started this thread bc i was combining this feeling of powerlessness with another feeling--that of having no sense of what is best for me, what is true for me, what is real for me. which especially complicates decisions in relationships. but it's interesting bc i think, at this level of all e5, it seems like the issue we share hinges more around powerlessness and identifying with other forces and the way that obscures our wills and prevents clean expression of our desires into action and decision. i am very interested to hear how intp and intj e5s feel about coming to decisions and recognizing what is best for them, what is true for them. i feel like Ji is what is most grounding. but Ti feels more hypothetical and objective than Fi, which seems to provide the clearest connection between the will and personal truth. Fi seems most powerful and most incredible when it comes to knowing what it wants but making a decision based on what is emotionally/subjectively true. i think Fe can have these moments, and i'm feeling really tumultuous, but they don't stay forever like Fi. they don't get stored AS US. but emotional awareness feels so powerful and when you ride it to a peak it rages so profoundly and you can FEEL the rush of what is true and for a moment replaces all the details with an awareness of the sum total of everything.

i'm interested in how this expands or contracts with the different instinctual subtypes. i'm sx/sp and my desire to connect DIRECTLY is powerful and important to me at all times. but i can't locate my own sense of who i am and how i am unique with regards to other e5s and other infjs. and it is extremely important for me right now to recognize the perspective of an sx e5, so e5, and sp e5 and how that affects what kinds of connections we need to sustain ourselves, grow, accept our power to make decisions and to act (courage!) and to get a sense of what inspires us to expand by allowing ourselves to become overwhelmed and not only withstanding it but realizing that such overwhelm can be the ultimate motivation for action and decision that we were lacking when we were postponing life collecting more information on whether or not we truly wanted to live it.

 

[the state i am in]

oh, without thinking too hard right now, i'm interested in how this sense of powerlessness plays out in a wider sense involving our risk aversion. and how w4 and w6 alter the dynamics.

for a 5w4, my basic sense is that the anxiety response majorly kicks in when our sense of our own individuality/uniqueness is threatened in a way that either exposes the arbitrariness of our OWN special value or threatens to destroy it more aggressively. anything that greatly disillusions me that could be traced back to my own place within the world, feeling like it is no longer stable and that if i am not careful i will quickly realize that the meaning of the world can leak out and leave nothing but a flat, empty, lifeless representation devoid of real purpose. coupled with the feeling that the world is what we cannot control, and that it can crush us, and if our meaning is defeated (as Ni e5), or if our logical truth is defeated (as Ti causality e5), we can not successfully maintain our place in a "meaningfully ordered cosmos" and we must watch it crumble into nothingness and feel powerless to stop it and draw us into its gravitational force. well, that's the way into 5w4 nihilism at least.

i don't know how this affects risk. i feel myself occasionally freeze and it freaks me out. i just have to avoid people who somehow become a representation that shows me my own shame.

 

[Arthur Schopenhauer]

I was going to make a thread about fives and expectations because that video is still on my mind as well. But I'm a lady. Mostly. I'll post anyway.

I'll tell you one anecdote I'll always remember...when I was 9 or so a little boy (I didn't particularly like him, just neutral, I imagine it would have been a little different had I liked him) told me he was going to marry me or wanted to marry me one day. I was absolutely TERRIFIED by what he'd said. Like completely overwhelmed and undermined and couldn't sleep for two days until I burst out in tears and told my mother in a fit of sheer panic. She calmed me down and laughed at it and told me I didn't have to do anything I didn't want, but this apparently didn't occur to me at all at first. That boy's expectations were pulling me apart completely and I felt utterly powerless and in no position to resist.

The experience sums up how threatened I still feel when people expect stuff of me that I deep down feel I don't want to give or can't give or am not sure I want to give or I anticipate might put me in a position where I'm forced to give what I don't really want. It's a defence mechanism because otherwise there is nothing that can stop the external force. Once I don't feel threatened anymore (some people filter in sideways or over time rather than start banging on my door) there is still the issue of maintaining boundaries. It's actually even more tricky because our default and crude NO response to threatening stuff is disabled in that mode.

Excellent post, I can relate to this. The internal feelings that come with any sort of unwanted expectation, pulled-on's or forced-into's, are the same as these, often regardless of how extreme the requests are, so long as they make me feel uncomfortable. My feelings manifest themselves slightly differently though, it seems.

Generally, I instantly detach myself from the expectation in a rude way so that I won't be called upon again, or, if I'm forced into the situation unwillingly, I become absurdly irritable/irritated and go about releasing that emotion through emotional coldness or combative speech and gestures, eg: passive-aggressive behavior, sarcasm, questioning rules/methods unecessarily to peeve people, core ideals attacking, etc.

Also, you will lose respect points or get blacklisted. Most likely blacklisted.

I definitely struggle with this most in the love department. Not so much socially. I think it helps to voice your concerns. I know that when I get that uneasy knot in my stomach and I feel undermined and angry at people for suddenly making my day a lot more complicated, it's time to get a different perspective/a grip. I think it's important to learn to distinguish between being selective and yelling no automatically because something is pulling at you.

Staying out of this one.

Oh and could you elaborate on INTJs having difficulty connecting

I would appreciate if someone did this as well. Outside perspective could be enlightening.

 

[Tallulah]

I was going to make a thread about fives and expectations because that video is still on my mind as well. But I'm a lady. Mostly. I'll post anyway.

I'll tell you one anecdote I'll always remember...when I was 9 or so a little boy (I didn't particularly like him, just neutral, I imagine it would have been a little different had I liked him) told me he was going to marry me or wanted to marry me one day. I was absolutely TERRIFIED by what he'd said. Like completely overwhelmed and undermined and couldn't sleep for two days until I burst out in tears and told my mother in a fit of sheer panic. She calmed me down and laughed at it and told me I didn't have to do anything I didn't want, but this apparently didn't occur to me at all at first. That boy's expectations were pulling me apart completely and I felt utterly powerless and in no position to resist.

The experience sums up how threatened I still feel when people expect stuff of me that I deep down feel I don't want to give or can't give or am not sure I want to give or I anticipate might put me in a position where I'm forced to give what I don't really want. It's a defence mechanism because otherwise there is nothing that can stop the external force. Once I don't feel threatened anymore (some people filter in sideways or over time rather than start banging on my door) there is still the issue of maintaining boundaries. It's actually even more tricky because our default and crude NO response to threatening stuff is disabled in that mode.

I definitely struggle with this most in the love department. Not so much socially. I think it helps to voice your concerns. I know that when I get that uneasy knot in my stomach and I feel undermined and angry at people for suddenly making my day a lot more complicated, it's time to get a different perspective/a grip. I think it's important to learn to distinguish between being selective and yelling no automatically because something is pulling at you.

Oh and could you elaborate on INTJs having difficulty connecting?

The video is still on my mind too.



And this is a great example of it. I'm the same way when it comes to relationships (notably romantic). It's like I somehow initially feel I have absolutely no choice. Yes, powerless. Constricted, suffocating. It's also why the 'confusion of action and will' was so striking to me.

Wow, I can so relate to this. When faced with a new relationship prospect, I am halfway between really excited and frozen by the inevitability of it all, which leads me to question why I was excited about it in the first place, and to question if I still am. I really am not crazy about this aspect of myself.

 

[cascadeco]

i definitely have the fear of not being able to say no. wolfy linked information about an "ask" vs a "guess" culture in the infj japan thread. i identify with "guess." i rely on high-context (sensitive?) information to interpret what is likely and would be more focused on acting appropriately/with anticipation of others expectatoins. the mere thought of asking for something that someone did not want to give me seems humiliating. i am afraid of people who will just blatantly ask for something, because i feel totally hesitant and unconfident when trying to express my will. like because they've asked, i am only powerful if i find an external reason why i cannot meet their request. i cannot just say, no, i don't want to do that. when i do it feels forced and childish.

Wow, awesome. You're so much better at I than articulating some of this stuff; or maybe rather, you're mentioning stuff that tends to be so subconscious/reactive/instinctual for me that I haven't ever really thought about it long enough to put it into words, I just notice the feelings, the little bit of panic, the inability to JUSTIFY saying no, --> as if my feelings/will on it isn't of importance, that that's not a good enough reason.

it's no surprise that i took on such extreme aloofness for most of my adolescence. no one would ask for anything. if i did respond, they would just see seething disdain that would make them retract a request (think of the intp eye roll glare intended to put you in your place).

This reminds me of my middle school and high school experience. No one asked me for anything either, because for one I was extremely quiet and in my own world, and secondly, I projected an aura of not-wanting-to-help, I think, because I did not want to be used. People quickly learned not to ask me for help on homework, as my attitude was more begrudging and definitely an attitude of withholding and giving the briefest answer as possible; not an attitude of willingness to help or share my ideas. Very protective of my ideas/thoughts/work, because I valued that I suppose and I wanted everyone else to be able to do things on their own without depending on me. Again, out of a fear of being 'used', and maybe out of a bit of disdain that others couldn't figure it out themselves (I know that sounds bad, but I think I thought that). That's probably starting to go off into a different subject, though.

i started this thread bc i was combining this feeling of powerlessness with another feeling--that of having no sense of what is best for me, what is true for me, what is real for me. which especially complicates decisions in relationships.

I don't know if this has more to do with INFJ-ness/ NiFe stuff, or whether it has ties to being E5, but for me, perhaps tied to expectations/powerlessness, when I'm initially in a relationship I far too easily see the other persons' perspective, start questioning my own or rationalizing the others even if deep down I get that tickle or knot in my stomach saying something's not right... also, quite early on, I experience excitement about all of it but also immediate panic/worry, almost, that the other person will take me over or obliterate me; therefore I do overcompensate and try to build in more down time for myself, more independent-solo time, days in between without seeing them or talking so I can 'recover' my sense of self...again, all tied to some fear of lack of will/power, lack of ability to say no, knowing their expectations/desires, and being totally confused and at a loss of what to do if I'm not truly wanting to meet that, but questioning what that means, should I then even be with them at all?? etc etc etc Overanalyzing everything.

i'm interested in how this expands or contracts with the different instinctual subtypes. i'm sx/sp and my desire to connect DIRECTLY is powerful and important to me at all times. but i can't locate my own sense of who i am and how i am unique with regards to other e5s and other infjs. and it is extremely important for me right now to recognize the perspective of an sx e5, so e5, and sp e5 and how that affects what kinds of connections we need to sustain ourselves, grow, accept our power to make decisions and to act (courage!)

I'm sp/so. I think I have more of a fear of deep, vulnerable emotional bonding and the other person knowing every little nook and cranny about me; I tend to shy away from relationships of that level of intensity. This isn't to say that I don't truly value my friendships, because I do, but the level of openness, and subject-matter of my openness, is perhaps different from those of the sx disposition. I'm probably not desirous or in need as much or at all of deep bonding on an emotionally vulnerable level. I mean, in romantic relationships, of course love and chemistry and all that jazz is important for me, and the feeling of love is obviously powerful and I have experienced that, but in everyday life, when it comes to building and maintaining relationships, and what I need out of them, my relationships are not built around a need for deep emotional bonding/validation - so discussing my emotional state isn't natural for me or even something I'm comfortable doing, really. I'll talk about stuff if I'm really having a problem or am in turmoil, like to a trusted friend, but I don't have heart-to-hearts like many others do, or need. Most of my emotional stuff is handled within, and I don't externalize much of it at all.

I know there's lots of other stuff I could cover, but I tend to not do as well when I'm left to just throw free-flowing thoughts out there, without something more specific to latch onto - specific questions, scenarios/hypotheticals, etc.

 

[Totenkindly]

"i feel like infjs struggle the most to figure out what is right for them. whereas intps have the most difficulty feeling emotion, and intjs have the most difficulty emotionally CONNECTING."

How true.

It seems a fair statement to me.

As far as INTP goes, it took me a long time to allow myself to feel emotion... and then to be able to identify the emotion... and then to be able to articulate nuanced emotion.

(One big block was just being able to admit I felt emotions like other people and that I couldn't avoid their influence in my perception and decision-making process... and it was okay, because that's part of being human and being alive.)

INFJ seems to me to be very vulnerable regarding their emotional state, but maybe it comes down to what was suggested ... they're not sure what is best/right/healthiest and thus unwilling to speak/label it? I don't know.

I agree with the INTJ thing, at least as the other end of an INTJ exchange: I usually feel that they grasp the ideas of what I'm saying, but I don't often get a vibe back that they understand (or at least validate) the emotional content... the emotional content often seems dismissed or set aside as irrelevant and not a factor... even with INTJs I find cordial. (And maybe that describes it best: INTJs can be cordial, which is how they typically seem to show concern/interest, but I don't particular find them warm as a group.)

I'll tell you one anecdote I'll always remember...when I was 9 or so a little boy (I didn't particularly like him, just neutral, I imagine it would have been a little different had I liked him) told me he was going to marry me or wanted to marry me one day. I was absolutely TERRIFIED by what he'd said. Like completely overwhelmed and undermined and couldn't sleep for two days until I burst out in tears and told my mother in a fit of sheer panic. She calmed me down and laughed at it and told me I didn't have to do anything I didn't want, but this apparently didn't occur to me at all at first. That boy's expectations were pulling me apart completely and I felt utterly powerless and in no position to resist.

The experience sums up how threatened I still feel when people expect stuff of me that I deep down feel I don't want to give or can't give or am not sure I want to give or I anticipate might put me in a position where I'm forced to give what I don't really want. It's a defence mechanism because otherwise there is nothing that can stop the external force. Once I don't feel threatened anymore (some people filter in sideways or over time rather than start banging on my door) there is still the issue of maintaining boundaries. It's actually even more tricky because our default and crude NO response to threatening stuff is disabled in that mode.

I definitely struggle with this most in the love department. Not so much socially. I think it helps to voice your concerns.

Wow.
Word.

It took me so many years to figure this out, but it's really what I go through.

Similarly, for many years I had an inability to say "no." If someone asked me to do something, I felt angry and overwhelmed because I now felt I had to do it; this is one reason why I avoided relationships for so long and felt I had to be alone in order to retain my autonomy. It always frustrated me to no end that I couldn't say "no" but I just couldn't. It grew particularly bad if the decision was one based more on preference and/or emotion; if I had a rational reason to say no, then it was easier for me... so I would construct elaborate reasons why I couldn't do what someone requested so that they would have no reason to be mad at me for saying no to their request. I felt like if I did not justify my decision, then I would have to deal with their negative emotion/opinion of me (which I didn't want to deal with), but also that if I could not rationally support my decision, then I had no reason to say no except to be a jerk or be mean.

Needless to say, this got me stuck in many situations I did not want to be in, and I would feel very unhappy. In the end, it was easier to avoid people.

Relationships of course were the epitome of trouble... but I became horrendously lonely if I avoided relationships. It was a real push/pull; I wanted to be known and accepted, but I couldn't afford for people to constantly step over my non-existent boundaries by being in a relationship. Even when I was in a relationship, I kept as much information about my feelings and desires hidden as possible, and tried to stay away from situations where someone might want me to do something, since I had no way to say no.

Even now, at my best... that's my biggest problem in my current relationship. I hate not being close to my partner, but the closer I get, the more smothered I can feel even if rationally I know he's oh so free in regards to letting me define my own boundaries. As soon as he gets too close for too long, I start distancing myself by nature; and the biggest issue has been his knowledge that he wants to be with me for always, where I know I love him but I'm uneasy about the commitment... it terrifies me for some reason. (It didn't help that I've been there and done that before, and it was a really hard relationship; I'm happy for how it changed me, but it hurt bad enough I don't want to do it again.)

Anyway, for some reason, e5 (esp the INTP blend) is traditionally withdrawn and observatory because the personal boundaries are so weak. Compare to the e8, which has very assertive and tough exterior boundaries, so e8 can charge into conflict and butt heads with anyone and overwhelm THEM rather than being overwhelmed. As e5 -> e8, it gains confidence and a sense of self and boundaries and can assert itself against others without being damaged by whoever e5 comes into contact with; it's no longer thin-skinned and delicate, it knows itself and can flex and protect itself without having to disengage.

 

[the state i am in]

I agree with the INTJ thing, at least as the other end of an INTJ exchange: I usually feel that they grasp the ideas of what I'm saying, but I don't often get a vibe back that they understand (or at least validate) the emotional content... the emotional content often seems dismissed or set aside as irrelevant and not a factor... even with INTJs I find cordial. (And maybe that describes it best: INTJs can be cordial, which is how they typically seem to show concern/interest, but I don't particular find them warm as a group.)

i think intjs just don't express it, and many male intjs aren't aware of how their emotions affect them. their emotions don't connect to others emotions, so they don't realize how to articulate or understand them through language. they're just kind of there. i think both int types have major difficulties allowing themselves space to accept that emotion is an integral part of judgment.

and the biggest issue has been his knowledge that he wants to be with me for always, where I know I love him but I'm uneasy about the commitment... it terrifies me for some reason.

what is this reason for us? is the future by nature threatening for us? the obligation to live in the world? also, is he an Fi type?

 

[Z Buck McFate]

i definitely have the fear of not being able to say no. wolfy linked information about an "ask" vs a "guess" culture in the infj japan thread. i identify with "guess." i rely on high-context (sensitive?) information to interpret what is likely and would be more focused on acting appropriately/with anticipation of others expectatoins. the mere thought of asking for something that someone did not want to give me seems humiliating. i am afraid of people who will just blatantly ask for something, because i feel totally hesitant and unconfident when trying to express my will. like because they've asked, i am only powerful if i find an external reason why i cannot meet their request. i cannot just say, no, i don't want to do that. when i do it feels forced and childish.

Perfectly stated, state. And such situations- regardless of whether I cave or go ahead with the childish ‘no’- almost invariably leave me looping to find the external reasons I wished I’d been able to produce right away. I end up trying to squirrel away an infinite number of ready-at-hand ‘external reasons’ so that I’ll be ready the next time it happens. I get all busy with the over-thinking. It seldom works though. An incident has to be somewhat fresh in my mind for anything my looping produces to be usable. Otherwise the reasons slowly dissipate back into their vague internal form.

i started this thread bc i was combining this feeling of powerlessness with another feeling--that of having no sense of what is best for me, what is true for me, what is real for me. which especially complicates decisions in relationships. but it's interesting bc i think, at this level of all e5, it seems like the issue we share hinges more around powerlessness and identifying with other forces and the way that obscures our wills and prevents clean expression of our desires into action and decision. i am very interested to hear how intp and intj e5s feel about coming to decisions and recognizing what is best for them, what is true for them. i feel like Ji is what is most grounding. but Ti feels more hypothetical and objective than Fi, which seems to provide the clearest connection between the will and personal truth. Fi seems most powerful and most incredible when it comes to knowing what it wants but making a decision based on what is emotionally/subjectively true. i think Fe can have these moments, and i'm feeling really tumultuous, but they don't stay forever like Fi. they don't get stored AS US. but emotional awareness feels so powerful and when you ride it to a peak it rages so profoundly and you can FEEL the rush of what is true and for a moment replaces all the details with an awareness of the sum total of everything. .

The bolded is actually also the first thing that came to me after reading ‘external reasons’ in the first paragraph. I’d be interested in hearing the Ti/Fe vs. Te/Fi difference too; because of what you said above, but also because (perhaps erroneously) I’m equating having instant access to ‘external reasons’ with using Te.

With one-on-one conflict, ‘what’s best for me/what I want’ is so inexorably fused with ‘what’s best for us/what we want’ that it feels like having a defense attorney who systematically forgets he isn’t also the prosecutor. I feel flashes of my own distinct separate feelings, but they don’t linger long: it’s quickly replaced with an awareness of all feelings involved (at least, it’s replaced with what I perceive all feelings to be- whether or not my perception of the other’s feelings is correct). I often end up feeling taken for granted- but more angry at myself than anyone else- for having such an incredibly sucky defense attorney. To compensate, again, I get busy with accumulating ‘external reasons’; hoping that I’ll be able & ready to defend my separate position before it disappears.

I’ve noticed I really have to grow to resent someone to be able to effectively separate ‘what’s best for me/what I want’ from ‘what’s best for us/what we want’ on a consistent basis. That’s problematic for obvious reasons.

i'm interested in how this expands or contracts with the different instinctual subtypes. i'm sx/sp and my desire to connect DIRECTLY is powerful and important to me at all times. but i can't locate my own sense of who i am and how i am unique with regards to other e5s and other infjs. and it is extremely important for me right now to recognize the perspective of an sx e5, so e5, and sp e5 and how that affects what kinds of connections we need to sustain ourselves, grow, accept our power to make decisions and to act (courage!) and to get a sense of what inspires us to expand by allowing ourselves to become overwhelmed and not only withstanding it but realizing that such overwhelm can be the ultimate motivation for action and decision that we were lacking when we were postponing life collecting more information on whether or not we truly wanted to live it.

I don’t quite know how to scale the need I feel for connection. That need for synthesis- of my ideas with another person- is definitely important. I wouldn’t say it’s “powerful and important at all times”, but it builds up and makes me feel anxious- and that sort of mild anxiety gives me the motivation to act. It’s slow building though. I *think* this is the kind of description you were looking for, but I’m not fully sure I understand this last paragraph.

 

[Kalach]

Re: one's power being outside oneself or controlled by others...

Yeah.

In the case of this INTJ e5, I take it to be true that every person has their own requirements and it's generally completely unimportant to me what they are because I know I'm not going to get involved with them. BUT... there will come times where for one reason or another I am involved, and that's when I will have to care about other people's requirements because often I'll be engaged in some attempt to change everything that's going on--initiating some project or spurring some development--and other people's requirements are going to be met or unmet or ignored or something--something's going to happen to them.

I've developed a philosophy of cooperation--it's really better if people want to cooperate, if they all have a clear understanding of what's going on and they have committed to their part of that vision. Naturally, this is insanely idealistic and rarely happens, so partial commitment is okay, if they turn up and take part, that's great. The worst times, however, come when people turn up and have their own ideas about what's going to happen. Those times, particularly when I was younger, were times of distress and loss. It would happen in relationships too. The really irritating feature of this condition, however, was in how rarely one would find a way to stop oneself. One usually couldn't say, oh darn, this unfinished vision is being sabotaged, I'll let it go. One instead would continue trying to have the vision come true. Some part of identity would be tied to the completion or the satisfaction of the vision, and jettisoning it or fundamentally changing it would amount to giving up identity.

Some part of identity would be tied to the vision. Enacting the vision would correspond to being a person. Expressing will. In the absence of an expressed will, one is just a bunch of thoughts, considerably removed from the world of substance, so the occasional expression is... well, in the absence of XYZ it is the entire basis for one's relationship to anything external. "XYZ" is some factor that comes into this e5 person and stills the need to dominate and direct. (I assume it's feeling or information of some kind.)

Bad relationships--ones that lack this XYZ factor but persist for whatever reason--can turn truly sour and go on and on and on with expressing one's will being the only tool available for relating, and likely not being allowed anyway, but still it goes on. Until one by accident or reflection comes to discover that XYZ is the key. (And that's a shocker of a discovery, by the way, and it comes really late because who accepts that their visions are in fundamental need of an element that is beyond your control?) But when one does discover that, the vision is altered fundamentally and expression of one's will usually moves toward working on ways to make the relationship end.

But that XYZ factor.... if I had a better name for it, I'd use it. It's not "love", because love comes in startlingly different forms, some of them inimical.

Etc and so on.

 

[Starry]

^^^this

Okay actually no - not that. I just always wanted to post 'that' because it seemed so cool & 'mighty'. (sorry Kalach, I know there is so much wisdom to be had from what you wrote - I just couldn't comprehend the last couple of paragraphs.)

And that could be due to the fact I have an INFJ e5 male that may soon have me landed in a quiet sanitarium off the coast of some far-off-place (hey that sounds so nice). Not to take away from the intent of the thread...but please tell me what those of us on the other side of the 'freeze' or the 'stutter' should do?

It is a terrible thing to have, through no intentional action of your own, 'shown an e5 their shame' and then be avoided because of it. It is a confusing thing to then be 'told' on these type of forums - in much of what you read that you, as an other, should back off from the INxx e5. My 'gut' tells me otherwise. But why would my situation be unique?

Seriously...what do you guys want from us? I promise you...this is the most bizarre human interaction I have ever experienced and I'm getting up there in years. It is as if he wants us to be bff...walking side by side...only using non-verbal communication and telapathy. I would like to have slightly more interaction than that. Sorry...I may not be making sense.

 

[Kalach]

Some jumbled thoughts:

There's a peculiar thing that goes with people wanting to know how they can help me or what they can do to accommodate me. There's a strange double bind where on the one hand I don't want to reveal too much by myself and on the other I don't want to go against what really exists. As bizarre as this may sound, if someone needs me to tell them what they can do to accommodate me, then more than likely something about their accommodation is going to be false and I will therefore distrust it. It will be a pitiable, unsustainable accommodation and as such it will have been something that was never meant to have been. It's ironically most humiliating if that person genuinely cares for me. I will tend to begin working for recognition of that disjunction, often saying things like "But you don't want to do this!" And it only gets worse if that person claims "But I do."

There are some kinds of accommodation that are acceptable, however. Where the other person, on my instruction, sacrifices something as part of a relatively comfortable process through which he or she ends up with a larger share of something they wanted. The caveat is usually I have to recognise and approve of the wanted thing. So for example if someone sacrifices their time somewhere else to get more time or attention from me, that probably won't work. That's an imposition on me. I'd have to be satisifed with the time together too. Or, as before, I'd begin working toward making sure such waste didn't happen again in the future.

It's draconian, the way of the J. So there's a kind of another pressure too, about making sure other people don't have to suffer under this yoke of my requirements--usually not by softening the requirements, but by steering clear of people.

 

[Starry]

I think I have more of a fear of deep, vulnerable emotional bonding and the other person knowing every little nook and cranny about me;

Hello casadeco (& others) – if you are able, would you please explain what the fear is here? lol! Okay, just ‎typing that sentence has me chuckling (yes - I like to entertain myself with self-created ‎scenarios). I am imagining that you wrote something along the lines of:‎

I think I have more of a fear of BASE jumping butt-naked from the Eiffel Tower in front of an ‎audience of extraordinarily attractive prospective mates that all hold in their hands a program - listing my 'top 10 most embarrasing moments of all time'. My response is then ‘now what bothers you about this?’‎

I completely relate to the fear of being emotionally vulnerable. I suspect 99% of the human ‎population can relate to this fear on some level. For many, vulnerablilty would ‎mean having to confront a set of deep seeded issues that the individual may consciously or ‎subconsciously feel are too painful to face at that point in their lives. Thus their relationships are ‎kept superficial if kept at all.‎

For me it is slightly different. With regard to romantic partnerships, I truly desire that type of special ‎bond, feel I have reached a point in my life where I am capable of the actual sharing of myself, and really do not wish to leave the planet without having known 'big love'. So my fear is not about being known but rather becoming dependent on having the person that knows me in my life.‎

In other words, yes, I am an insecure person so the fear of rejection does come into play somewhat. But if I am opening up to someone on that level I have probably already determined that the likelihood of them rejecting me due to say - my flaws is very small (I like to lead with my flaws for this very reason!) My fear centers around losing the person outright. To a harsh world. To things like death and disease. Seriously, I'm that freaky. Years ago I wanted a dog so bad (which I did eventually get) but was concerned about becoming attached to it and then having it (her) pass-away. It often feels to me that I would rather not combine my life with another and then suffer the unspeakable pain of losing them (it probably says I’m an e4 ‎somewhere on this post but I recently discovered I was mistyped and am an e6 – crazy lady!).

when I'm initially in a relationship I far too easily see the other persons' perspective, start questioning my own or rationalizing the others even if deep down I get that tickle or knot in my stomach saying something's not right...;

‎

Which do you believe comes first...the fear or the message that 'something is not right'? I'm asking because I do this myself and I am unable to determine the order.

Likewise, when I listen to my e5 there seems to be something more causing this fear of bonding, etc. ‎that I can’t quite put my finger on. I know it is being touched on here but I can’t quite put it ‎together in my mind. I do understand the desire not to be pressed upon or obligated I truly do. However, something seems very beautiful to me about partnership and choosing to not seperate my will from the will of another.

I get both from my e5. A desire to combine and a to flee at the same exact time. I feel he believes he could live a life with limited human contact yet I feel I would have a far easier time of it and I am an extravert. I'm starting to not make sense if I ever did in this post. All I know is that there is something else coming into play. Even if e5s need for solitude and 'non-need' for connection is naturally less...I am still left wondering what is the bottom-line? What came first?

 

[cascadeco]

Hello casadeco (& others) – if you are able, would you please explain what the fear is here? lol! Okay, just ‎typing that sentence has me chuckling (yes - I like to entertain myself with self-created ‎scenarios). I am imagining that you wrote something along the lines of:‎

Re. not wanting the person to know every nook and cranny, I dunno, part of it is that I don't think it's necessary... they don't need to know every detail of my life... if we're able to bridge the present and care/love for each other in the now, why dig up unnecessary details about every little thing that happened in the past? Also, getting at more of the direct 'fear' element, I suppose I don't want their knowledge of me to be leveraged/used against me.

And, again, I'm simply not someone who needs the deep emotional context/bonding, I guess. I don't equate my emotional process itself as being a huge element of ME - of who I am. I equate my sense of self more to my thoughts, my views of the world, my perceptions, my ideas... so being understood and appreciated, and bonding on more of that intellectual/idea-based level, is more meaningful and powerful to me than them knowing my emotional psychae. ‎ This isn't to say that I don't need someone who I trust enough to be vulnerable and emotionally open with, at times, but it's not really a 'place' I go to that often, I guess.

Which do you believe comes first...the fear or the message that 'something is not right'? I'm asking because I do this myself and I am unable to determine the order.

Hmm..when I referred to that I was speaking more towards the other persons' will/beliefs/self taking over my own. Mine temporarily gets erased or I start questioning it entirely, even though I'm uncomfortable or something doesn't seem right about the other persons' way of being, but logically I can't justify that it's 'wrong' because these things are subjective to begin with; therefore I can get lost in the subjectivity/individual-ness of it all and lose any sense of my own sense/belief of what is right, which is somewhat ironic because it means I prioritize the other persons' values/subjectivity over my own, sometimes, even though I could use the same argument against them/theirs. I'm unable to say definitively that my views/way is the 'right' way (because it's not.. no one's is, it's just a matter of preference), thus I lose my identity completely, at least potentially. Not always.

Likewise, when I listen to my e5 there seems to be something more causing this fear of bonding, etc. ‎that I can’t quite put my finger on. I know it is being touched on here but I can’t quite put it ‎together in my mind. I do understand the desire not to be pressed upon or obligated I truly do. However, something seems very beautiful to me about partnership and choosing to not seperate my will from the will of another.

See, and the notion of having a merging-of-souls and becoming one terrifies me. How can you have a combined will when you're two separate individuals, with separate perceptions and preferences and opinions and etc? I don't like the concept...in reality. I mean, sure, in the movies or whatever it's a nice romantic notion, but I really don't want to 'become one' and have myself obliterated. I want distinct selves, with potential disagreement and challenge and growth, both independent, but where both have the desire to live a life together and choose to move together throughout life.

So the tug of war/conflict is probably my totally wanting two distinct wills but when I'm in the midst of a relationship, due to the subjectivity piece (as mentioned above) and potential loss/confusion of my own identity, I can at times lose my will and then things are no longer distinct and I have to back away and reassert my will, etc. Honestly it's been so long since I've been in a relationship that a lot of this is just from memory and also hypothetically how I think I would react and what I think some of the issues might be. I just know that maintaining my independence, time and sense of distinctness and separateness, and unique identity/self is important and necessary for me.

Edit: I was just conversing with someone and it seems applicable to put it in this post as well: not knowing how to balance my own needs/desires vs. compromising to some extent. I think this is tied to the Boundary issue. Knowing when to compromise vs. when to stand my ground is a real grey, confusing area for me. Maybe, though, the areas of confusion are areas I don't have uber-solid beliefs on anyway, and haven't yet constructed a solid identity/value around those areas yet, thus I feel really prone to being a leaf blowing in the wind or pulled in a way I haven't decided I want to be pulled yet but since I don't have a solid opinion yet, then I can't justify not being pulled. What if later on I decide to backpedal and I realize I didn't want to be pulled at all?

 

[Coriolis]

It's draconian, the way of the J. So there's a kind of another pressure too, about making sure other people don't have to suffer under this yoke of my requirements--usually not by softening the requirements, but by steering clear of people.

^^ Absolutely this.

You have explained the mechanics of these dynamics very well. I have become close to people from time to time, but try to make sure that they understand well what they are getting into.

 

[Starry]

...the notion of having a merging-of-souls and becoming one terrifies me...

Hello again casadeco. I am embarrassed that I was not able to immediately respond to ‎and/or acknowledge receiving the answers you so graciously provided to my questions. I ‎actually read this response minutes after it was posted and once finished started writing ‎back in return. Again, as a way to acknowledge how you have helped me better understand ‎so much about myself, my relationship with an e5 and just other people's experiences in general. But in classic ‘StarryKnights style’ I lost the long and undoubtedly ‎profoundly wise (okay – maybe not profoundly wise)…………post to the blackhole of the ‎internet. Discouraged I walked away from it, and ended up staying away longer than I intended. whoops.
‎
Thank you casadeco so very much for the kindness you have shown me.‎

I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had recently discovered I was an e6 ‎instead of e4. Due to the fact that the e4 description never really resonated with me, I’ll be ‎honest, I thought the enneagram ‘somewhat bogus’ and made no effort to learn about it. ‎Subsequently, I am far behind many of you here and really have no business interrupting a ‎thread that was meant for e5s and not necessarily those experiencing challenges in their e5 ‎relationships.‎

Nevertheless, using my very limited understanding of e5s, I no longer see myself as 'strong' enough to be in an intimate relationship with one. Obviously I am not going to allow the Enneagram to dictate who I do and do not formulate relationships with. But it does seem to me that, when conflict arrises...and it always does (said to my irl e5) that the e5s instinctual response (?) to withdraw without explanation, etc. is hard on my desire to know that things are 'okay' even in the midst of challenges. I see this push - pull happening. Me sending the message that it is okay to 'move'...that I somehow 'need' you to 'do something'...and the e5 becoming just that more 'frozen'.

I smiled, though, when you mentioned a merging-of-the-souls…because of all the funny ‎‎‘harlequin romance images’ it produced in my mind. In truth, I am not quite sure what it ‎means or what a ‘soul merging’ would look like so I don’t know if I am, or would be, fearful ‎of such a bond or not. But I definitely do not want to become one with another person ‎because I want to be able to enjoy that person as a separate individual (if that makes ‎sense).
‎
I have more flaws then I could address in a lifetime BUT one trait that I am honestly proud ‎of is an ability to accept people and adapt to differing ways (within limits of course as I ‎won’t tolerate abuse, criminal activity, that sort of thing). When reading through this ‎thread again I guess it became definite in my mind that being able to accept others is a ‎function of having a sense of separateness. Someone’s good or bad behavior does not ‎reflect upon me. Aside from my child, I never experience an overwhelming sense that I am ‎responsible for someone else’s state of mind or being unless I engaged them directly. And, perhaps due to all of this, I can comfortably say ‘no’.‎

...I think this is tied to the Boundary issue. Knowing when to compromise vs. when to stand my ground is a real grey, confusing area for me. Maybe, though, the areas of confusion are areas I don't have uber-solid beliefs on anyway, and haven't yet constructed a solid identity/value around those areas yet, thus I feel really prone to being a leaf blowing in the wind or pulled in a way I haven't decided I want to be pulled yet but since I don't have a solid opinion yet, then I can't justify not being pulled. What if later on I decide to backpedal and I realize I didn't want to be pulled at all?

You see, I can understand these words…but cannot wrap my brain around what this ‎experience would feel like. I believe state may have touched on this earlier – the difference ‎between Fi & Fe maybe. Again, not knowing enough about it I should hardly speak of it at ‎all. But for me, my ‘will’ is always readily available to me. In this way it is probably ‘safer’ ‎for me interact with people and/or adapt to situations because I know I can access that ‘will’ ‎immediately if I need to and thus am less likely to unwittingly be pulled in a direction I do ‎not want to go. I know exactly what I feel from moment to moment and will act ‎accordingly. This often means feeling okay to change my mind when new feelings or ‎information presents itself. It also, on occasion, means changing my mind back. I can ‎easily let go of an attachment to consistency if I make a determination that being ‎inconsistent at that point in time will keep me within ‘what feels right’.‎

With all of that said though – please know that I am in no way saying ‘my way is better’ as I ‎do not even remotely believe that to be the case. When I think of Western society – I think ‎that while asserting one’s will is considered desirable…doing so based on feelings as ‎opposed to rational thought would definitely be frowned upon. Whatever.‎

All and all, I get the sense that you know far better than me what a soul-merging would ‎actually be like. Again, I am unable to imagine how an e5 experiences boundaries and the ‎sense of being an individual being. I am unable to understand the ‘need’ to make finalized ‎decisions…as all my mind can see is how everything is always in motion…always changing. ‎I do see however, how these two qualities together could certainly cause an individual to ‎‎‘freeze’ and ‘stutter’. And I can see how someone like me could end-up being an e5s ‘worst ‎nightmare’. That makes me sad though because the people commenting on this thread ‎‎(state, z buck, etc. & you casadeco) all have ‘voices’ that really resonate with me…and have ‎for some time now. Long before any of you knew that crazy starryknights even existed. It ‎feels like a real bummer to think that I would probably overwhelm you irl…like I can only ‎assume I do to my irl e5. What a shame!!

This calls for the sad banana