[Type 4] Relationship With Type 4?

[Cloud of Thunder]

What's your relationship to Type 4 like? Do you know any Fours? Did you once think you were a Four? How does it feel to disintegrate to Four?

 

[EJCC]

Never thought I was a four. Thought I had a four fix, for a bit, but three makes more sense.

Besides that, I'll quote from my post on the disintegration thread:

I'm trying to change my attitude towards fours. My gut reaction is colored by my experience disintegrating to four, which means that I constantly project onto them. "Would you people calm down?? No one cares about this as much as you do! Take a chill pill and get back to real life!" = my reaction to myself when I'm in that mood, as well as my internal reaction to emotional fours.

It's almost exactly the same as my instinctive reaction to INFPs, because in both cases, I view their displays of emotion as "overreaction". It's frustrating, because it gets in the way of actually handling INFPs and fours appropriately when they get upset. (I've had an upset INFP 4 friend get even more upset when I didn't react emotionally enough to the same thing she was reacting to! Apparently she bitched me out behind my back for being "cold-hearted". )

 

[Cloud of Thunder]

Any other Ones out there?

 

[Typh0n]

Any other Ones out there?

EJCC's respone wasnt good enough?

 

[Cloud of Thunder]

EJCC's respone wasnt good enough?

On the contrary, it was great. But surely there are other Ones on this forum?

 

[small.wonder]

Oh, I would love to hear other 1 perspectives on this as well. I know a 1 who says very passive aggressive things to me almost every time we interact. I'm not sure what to make of it (we don't know one another very well) but it's taken me quite off guard every time.

I'd love to know what's behind that though.
[MENTION=15246]SD45T-2[/MENTION] Whatcha think?

 

[SD45T-2]

Oh, I would love to hear other 1 perspectives on this as well. I know a 1 who says very passive aggressive things to me almost every time we interact. I'm not sure what to make of it (we don't know one another very well) but it's taken me quite off guard every time.

I'd love to know what's behind that though.
[MENTION=15246]SD45T-2[/MENTION] Whatcha think?

I guess pent up resentment over ... something. I can't think of anyone I know IRL who is a 4.

 

[small.wonder]

I guess pent up resentment over ... something. I can't think of anyone I know IRL who is a 4.

Thanks anyway! I agree that it's resentment but since we are just acquaintances its got to be something small. I have a feeling it's the fact that I kind of do, say, and am what I choose. Do you suppose that might make her mad because I'm not conforming to what she might see as right? We have the same spiritural and moral beleifs though so maybe it's cultural? An example: I found out recently that she's into vintage stuff too, but you'd never know because she never wears it (just likes it). Perhaps she doesn't feel like its "allowed" or "appropriate" to wear in our vastly jeans-wearing church community, and seeing that I wear whatever I want makes her mad? Or maybe she sees me as an exhibitionist!? Woah, that could be it (though truly I am not).

Sorry, I often come to conclusions while talking or typing. Does that sound feasible to you?

 

[SD45T-2]

Thanks anyway! I agree that it's resentment but since we are just acquaintances its got to be something small. I have a feeling it's the fact that I kind of do, say, and am what I choose. Do you suppose that might make her mad because I'm not conforming to what she might see as right? We have the same spiritural and moral beleifs though so maybe it's cultural? An example: I found out recently that she's into vintage stuff too, but you'd never know because she never wears it (just likes it). Perhaps she doesn't feel like its "allowed" or "appropriate" to wear in our vastly jeans-wearing church community, and seeing that I wear whatever I want makes her mad? Or maybe she sees me as an exhibitionist!? Woah, that could be it (though truly I am not).

Sorry, I often come to conclusions while talking or typing. Does that sound feasible to you?

I guess that could be it.

 

[EJCC]

You didn't ask me, but:

Thanks anyway! I agree that it's resentment but since we are just acquaintances its got to be something small. I have a feeling it's the fact that I kind of do, say, and am what I choose. Do you suppose that might make her mad because I'm not conforming to what she might see as right? We have the same spiritural and moral beleifs though so maybe it's cultural? An example: I found out recently that she's into vintage stuff too, but you'd never know because she never wears it (just likes it). Perhaps she doesn't feel like its "allowed" or "appropriate" to wear in our vastly jeans-wearing church community, and seeing that I wear whatever I want makes her mad? Or maybe she sees me as an exhibitionist!? Woah, that could be it (though truly I am not).

Sorry, I often come to conclusions while talking or typing. Does that sound feasible to you?

That all seems feasible. I could see her being annoyed by the fact that perhaps, in her eyes, you break important rules of social conduct without realizing that what you're doing is "wrong". Though her behavior seems unnecessarily bitchy -- and not at all productive/constructive -- it could easily be motivated by that. Could be made worse if she's jealous, wishing she could also dress like that without being seen as deviant/strange/what have you.

 

[small.wonder]

[MENTION=15246]SD45T-2[/MENTION] [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] Thanks both of you! I'm still not quite sure what do about the situation other than avoid her (which is not really my style). In the past I've responded to the things she said to me instead of stoping and pointing out that what she said was not okay to start with. Perhaps there's something there.

The last incident was actually an Enneagram based project I'm doing that she participated in. While I was interviewing my 2's, the 1's were standing by waiting for their interview and just listening. One of the 2's was describing his experience and said something like, "...I know that's such a teenage girl type of response, but that's how I experience it." To reassure him, I said, "believe me, every Enneagram type has it's teenage girl-ish tendencies." At that point the 1 in question barks out from behind me, "oh, except 4's. Right?" I was so confused, but responded by saying that actually 4 is probably the most teenage girl like. In hindsight, I realize that's probably not true (or even measurable) but I have a tendency to be extremely vulnerable (or even overly critical of myself) in the face of criticism. It generally does diffuse the situation because criticism can not offend or hurt someone who is already fully aware of all their crap.

Do you think it would have helped if I'd responded differently? Like maybe actually addressed her statement. I kind of just want to ask her why she has a chip on her shoulder, but I know she'd probably get indignant and fire back at me. :sigh: Perhaps I should have just said, "why would you say that?" or "where did that come from?" because that's kind of how I felt.
[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] Do you know any 4's IRL? If so, do you get along with them?

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION]

I'm dating a 4, actually. Not sure how representative of a typical 4 he is, because he's one of the only ones I know irl.

That comment makes me think that she sees you as arrogant or "high and mighty"? As if you'd put your type over everyone else's? Maybe that has something to do with your clothes and the related things you posted about earlier.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

At one time I typed as a 5w4. I was in college and thought 5w6, which I got at first, sounded '"lame" or something, and so I think I retook it with an eye to answering things so that I would get 5w4. They didn't describe my actual feelings and beliefs about things, though, just my idealized rendering of those.

4s do bug me sometimes... I feel they sometimes place too much stake in being seen as a "non-conformist." I also clash with them because it seems to be especially hard for them to remove themselves from their personal feelings about something and place it within a larger context. I find that I find that many conversations I have with them end up being about politics, regardless of how relevant that is to the particular topic. They also really, really don't respond well to even the suggestion of a criticism, but are frequently criticizing others. I know at least some 4s are actually like that, even if they aren't all like that.

What do I like about 4's? They love beauty and can often appreciate nature, if they are comfortable enough. They are also relaxed individuals who can be content to do nothing and just relax (sometimes also a down side). They do not consider popular opinion to be gospel. They are patient. They do not try and fit people into boxes, and can respect individual difference.

 

[small.wonder]

[MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION]

I'm dating a 4, actually. Not sure how representative of a typical 4 he is, because he's one of the only ones I know irl.

That comment makes me think that she sees you as arrogant or "high and mighty"? As if you'd put your type over everyone else's? Maybe that has something to do with your clothes and the related things you posted about earlier.

Cool, that gives me hope for tranquility between myself and 1's at large!

That sucks to hear that she might see me as arrogant, but I can see what you mean. I have experienced that judgement about me, but it's only ever from those who don't know and have never had a conversation with me. I think it has something to do with the way I carry myself (and the way I dress), but also the fact that I tend to not acknowledge people in social situations unless I know them well, or specifically feel drawn to them. This is out of social fear, but I've been told it comes across as unapproachable or arrogant. Even as a relatively healthy 4, this is still a struggle for me. It's tragically hilarious that anyone would read my terror/shame as haughtiness, but it's true that they have. In order to mend that notion in some cases, I've actually awkwardly aproached people I could tell were put off by my silence and distance and said something to the effect of, "I'm sorry I didn't say hi, I am awkward and socially inept. Hi." It's always worth the momentary humiliation though because those individuals realize the truth of where I'm at, and tend to approach me with more ease afterwards.

Le sigh. Thanks for your input, much of the conclusion here still seems out of my control but I will keep trying.

 

[Animal]

1s love me. Although they also love the challenge of attempting to put me in my place with regard to my own emotions. It gives me tremendous satisfaction when they give up and say "No one can help you" and then proceed to tell me that they will resist the urge to kill me off and put me out of my misery because I own the chaos and make art out of it.

This was the result of a conversation I was having over the course of the week with a 1 regarding a major heartache from my past and a lingering obsession that cannot be cured.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Thanks anyway! I agree that it's resentment but since we are just acquaintances its got to be something small. I have a feeling it's the fact that I kind of do, say, and am what I choose. Do you suppose that might make her mad because I'm not conforming to what she might see as right? We have the same spiritural and moral beleifs though so maybe it's cultural? An example: I found out recently that she's into vintage stuff too, but you'd never know because she never wears it (just likes it). Perhaps she doesn't feel like its "allowed" or "appropriate" to wear in our vastly jeans-wearing church community, and seeing that I wear whatever I want makes her mad? Or maybe she sees me as an exhibitionist!? Woah, that could be it (though truly I am not).

Sorry, I often come to conclusions while talking or typing. Does that sound feasible to you?

Not a 1, but as a fellow 4 who encounters many 1s in a religious environment...

1s often repress personal feelings/desires, seeing them as destructive or just getting in the way of meeting their objectives. Their conscious anger (to whatever degree they experience it) is often a critical attitude towards those they don't see meeting the standards they believe are right & good (again, varying degrees of this - high-minded 1s can have grand, noble ideas & standards are more about principles & others can be petty & nitpicky & standards are more exact procedure). But this can often be masking a repressed resentment towards those who are not repressing feelings & desires, & that aren't necessarily "bad". They resent your ability to, well, be yourself & not sacrifice all personal desires to conform to some mode of what's "appropriate". I think their comments are passive-aggressive because they may not fully realize this, or they can't find any real moral ground to justify their anger, and this makes them more irritated.

I'm not pulling this out of my butt either...I have observed this, but it's also backed up by various enneagram literature.
When you consider this a big aspect of their anger, then you can see how integration at 7 helps. When average, the 7 connection often results in justifying their desires as a part of their "model" (often such things will be called "normal" or given a function beyond pleasure or emotions), but also some hypocrisy when they do give into indulgences and then point the finger at others for it. They'll also display a happy demeanor & sense of humor, etc, when average. Real integration is when they accept desires, feelings & emotions as valid in themselves & don't need to justify them, and then they can understand them & nourish them & not feel resentment at others for doing the same.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

When average, the 7 connection often results in justifying their desires as a part of their "model" (often such things will be called "normal" or given a function beyond pleasure or emotions), but also some hypocrisy when they do give into indulgences and then point the finger at others for it.

It sounds like in general, the path for integration causes a lot of problems at average levels. Consider:

Most often, if Fives feel that others are intruding on them or imposing their wills, they will simply leave quietly if they can or shut down into a detached, disdainful silence. With people or situations in which they have more confidence, however, Fives may suddenly risk behaving like average Eights, forcefully asserting their boundaries and confronting anyone or anything that displeases them. They become feisty, argumentative, and relentlessly provocative. In this mode, they take a tough stance, putting everyone on notice that they cannot be trifled with, but in ways that often cause people to react against them. They may become domineering, even aggressive, while questioning others' competency.

I have observed this behavior in myself. Usually it seems that there is some kind of hypocrisy involved in this average behavior.... they complain about people always provoking them and bossing them around, but are constantly provoking others.

 

[Standuble]

I once knew a girl who typed herself as a one. Passionate and driven but ultimately foolish. Was quick to berate others (she once berated me for not fulfilling "my moral responsibilities") yet (from what I gleamed) she had no real understanding of the mechanics behind morality and had a black-and-white view of the whole thing. In retrospect I should have sat down and explained it to her, at least so she could understand why nobody wanted to do what she said or why the world isn't working how she thought it should (the world ultimately will not bend to those it has no use for and she put herself on a path to being rejected by it). She was depressed however and likely both unhealthy and neurotic and from what I understand she typed as a four for a time. Whether she thought favourably of them is a different question.

 

[small.wonder]

Not a 1, but as a fellow 4 who encounters many 1s in a religious environment...

1s often repress personal feelings/desires, seeing them as destructive or just getting in the way of meeting their objectives. Their conscious anger (to whatever degree they experience it) is often a critical attitude towards those they don't see meeting the standards they believe are right & good (again, varying degrees of this - high-minded 1s can have grand, noble ideas & standards are more about principles & others can be petty & nitpicky & standards are more exact procedure). But this can often be masking a repressed resentment towards those who are not repressing feelings & desires, but necessarily "bad". They resent your ability to, well, be yourself & not sacrifice all personal desires to conform to some mode of what's "appropriate". I think their comments are passive-aggressive because they may not fully realize this, or they can't find any real moral ground to justify their anger, and this makes them more irritated.

I'm not pulling this out of my butt either...I have observed this, but it's also backed up by various enneagram literature.
When you consider this a big aspect of their anger, then you can see how integration at 7 helps. When average, the 7 connection often results in justifying their desires as a part of their "model" (often such things will be called "normal" or given a function beyond pleasure or emotions), but also some hypocrisy when they do give into indulgences and then point the finger at others for it. They'll also display a happy demeanor & sense of humor, etc, when average. Real integration is when they accept desires, feelings & emotions as valid in themselves & don't need to justify them, and then they can understand them & nourish them & not feel resentment at others for doing the same.

Thanks for chiming in, what you've said does make sense in the context of my situation. Especially the bit about integration to 7, the 1 I mentioned is fits right in with your description of average health too.

 

[EJCC]

Cool, that gives me hope for tranquility between myself and 1's at large!

That sucks to hear that she might see me as arrogant, but I can see what you mean. I have experienced that judgement about me, but it's only ever from those who don't know and have never had a conversation with me. I think it has something to do with the way I carry myself (and the way I dress), but also the fact that I tend to not acknowledge people in social situations unless I know them well, or specifically feel drawn to them. This is out of social fear, but I've been told it comes across as unapproachable or arrogant. Even as a relatively healthy 4, this is still a struggle for me. It's tragically hilarious that anyone would read my terror/shame as haughtiness, but it's true that they have. In order to mend that notion in some cases, I've actually awkwardly aproached people I could tell were put off by my silence and distance and said something to the effect of, "I'm sorry I didn't say hi, I am awkward and socially inept. Hi." It's always worth the momentary humiliation though because those individuals realize the truth of where I'm at, and tend to approach me with more ease afterwards.

Le sigh. Thanks for your input, much of the conclusion here still seems out of my control but I will keep trying.

I'm sorry that misunderstanding keeps happening to you. Sounds like that probably has a lot to do with the situation with this type 1, though. That plus what [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] posted -- which I definitely relate to from my less 7-integrated days -- adds up to a depiction of this 1 as simultaneously disliking how you "think you're above the rules", and also being jealous of you for being able to break those rules, when she feels like she can't.