Random Star Trek thoughts

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Here's what I'd consider essential TOS. Skip the rest. Over half are first season episodes, just showing how the quality slid as it went on. Only 2 are from season 3. Shit, you could even skip The Menagerie, since The Cage makes it mostly redundant. A lot of older fans probably saw Menagerie first, since Cage wasn't available to general audiences for years. I saw The Cage first, so when I watched the Menagerie, it felt like a clip show. It's impossible for me to unsee it as such, although I do commend the creative way the writers and producers used the original pilot footage and built a compelling episode around it. My personal favorite episodes from this list are probably The Devil in the Dark and Amok Time--the former is what I would consider a perfect Star Trek episode, right up there with The Motion Picture, The Measure of a Man, Distant Origin, and Far Beyond The Stars.

The Cage
The Corbomite Maneuver
The Naked Time
Balance of Terror
The Galileo Seven
The Menagerie Pts. 1 & 2
Arena
Space Seed
The Devil in the Dark
Errand of Mercy
The City on the Edge of Forever
Amok Time
The Doomsday Machine
The Changeling
Mirror, Mirror
The Trouble With Tribblesthe e
Journey To Babel
The Tholian Web
Let That Be Your Last Battlefield

The City on the Edge of Forever struck me as something that would have been cool in the 60s, but as someone who is familiar with so many things that were no doubt influenced by it and moved faster, I found it a little interesting. I guess that's part of the curse of inventing a particular trope.

Devil in the Dark is probably my favorite episode I've seen so far. Plus, it has my favorite.. "i'm a doctor not a..." [bricklayer]. Balance of Terror is pretty good. And of course I liked Amok Time for fleshing out the Vulcan species. I've also seen Mirror, MIrror, the Trouble with Tribbles, Errand of Mercy, and Let That Be Your Last Battlefield. I enjoy the first two, the latter left me a little cold, I think because the cold war allegory doesn't do a lot for me as someone who had the end of the cold war as one of their early memories.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Oh dude, that's great to hear, pass then on TOS.

I've seen most of TNG, all of DS9 once on DVD in college when they were just releasing the DVD's, and I've rewatched all 7 seasons of Voyager maybe 5 times now, Ensign Kim Forever, and I could easily watch it again right now, it's just so good!

Enterprise was/is incurably boring.

Lower Decks is fantastic on every level including sick bay.

Picard is a solid effort and I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes. Not particularly rewatchable for me and why the fuck would you kill off Icheb without giving him a backstory!

...and in Discovery all the actors feel like one show tune away from breaking out in song; none of them feel like they belong on Star Trek. I'm sure you know the obvious problems with canon, filming, the tactless culturally dated woke agenda for the time period, the effortfully unnecessary cinematography, etc. The premise has all the foundations for a good show about Section 31 and they botched it on every front but it's way better than Enterprise, lolz. Why CBS would hire and fire Bryan Fuller, then get Akiva Goldsman and all these guys, when they should just hire Ronald D Moore and pay him whatever he wants in gold plated latnum to produce and write Discovery properly, when he's finished with other projects, but oh well.

The Orville's amazing because Brannon Braga executive produced it, and he did Voyager, and he understands the viewers of scifi because he's one of them; he's amazing.

Tom Paris wrote and executive produced Resident Alien starring Alan Tudyk, and it's the best scifi on TV by a mile!

Ronald D. Moore is a great idea. I think one of his earliest TNG episodes was the one where I decided.... yeah, this season is way better than the first two. He botched the ending kind of, but I found BSG really enjoyable as well, and something I need to revisit at some point.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Oh dude, that's great to hear, pass then on TOS.

I've seen most of TNG, all of DS9 once on DVD in college when they were just releasing the DVD's, and I've rewatched all 7 seasons of Voyager maybe 5 times now, Ensign Kim Forever, and I could easily watch it again right now, it's just so good!

Enterprise was/is incurably boring.

Lower Decks is fantastic on every level including sick bay.

Picard is a solid effort and I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes. Not particularly rewatchable for me and why the fuck would you kill off Icheb without giving him a backstory!

...and in Discovery all the actors feel like one show tune away from breaking out in song; none of them feel like they belong on Star Trek. I'm sure you know the obvious problems with canon, filming, the tactless culturally dated woke agenda for the time period, the effortfully unnecessary cinematography, etc. The premise has all the foundations for a good show about Section 31 and they botched it on every front but it's way better than Enterprise, lolz. Why CBS would hire and fire Bryan Fuller, then get Akiva Goldsman and all these guys, when they should just hire Ronald D Moore and pay him whatever he wants in gold plated latnum to produce and write Discovery properly, when he's finished with other projects, but oh well.

The Orville's amazing because Brannon Braga executive produced it, and he did Voyager, and he understands the viewers of scifi because he's one of them; he's amazing.

Tom Paris wrote and executive produced Resident Alien starring Alan Tudyk, and it's the best scifi on TV by a mile!

Icheb was killed because the original actor who played him had apparently defended Kevin Spacey on twitter. They chose an actor who was a dead ringer for the original actor and essentially used the character as an effigy, hence the pointlessly violent scene and the character's brutal death in Picard.

I'm not defending that actor's statements on Spacey, but overall I thought it was kind of a shitty way for the producers to react by brutally killing off a fictional character he played 20 years ago as a way to stick it to an actor for expressing an unpopular opinion on social media. It does do a disservice to fans of the character who are able to distinguish fictional characters from the actors who play them, and if it really was such a big deal, they could've simply recast the guy without murdering him. The guy may have been a little tone deaf but he's hardly a raging Trump supporter, considering other posts on his timeline bashing right wingers for not understanding the basic premises of Star Trek.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Ronald D Moore, Michael Pillar and Ira Steven Behr are probably the triple crown when it comes to excellent writing during the TNG through Voyager years

 

[Paisley]

Icheb was killed because the original actor who played him had apparently defended Kevin Spacey on twitter. They chose an actor who was a dead ringer for the original actor and essentially used the character as an effigy, hence the pointlessly violent scene and the character's brutal death in Picard.

I'm not defending that actor's statements on Spacey, but overall I thought it was kind of a shitty way for the producers to react by brutally killing off a fictional character he played 20 years ago as a way to stick it to an actor for expressing an unpopular opinion on social media. It does do a disservice to fans of the character who are able to distinguish fictional characters from the actors who play them, and if it really was such a big deal, they could've simply recast the guy without murdering him. The guy may have been a little tone deaf but he's hardly a raging Trump supporter, considering other posts on his timeline bashing right wingers for not understanding the basic premises of Star Trek.

Political correctness did him in, got it.

Ronald D Moore, Michael Pillar and Ira Steven Behr are probably the triple crown when it comes to excellent writing during the TNG through Voyager years

This is a fun game, I'd go with Jeri Taylor (Resolutions), Brannon Braga (Year of Hell 1&2), and Ronald D Moore (BSG, ) for my triple crown.

If you were to rank all the Star Trek series from best to worst, 1 to 10, what would it be and why?

1. Voyager - First place by a healthy distance. A full story with a great beginning, middle, and end.

2. TNG - Provides the framework for the entire universe, but dated.
3. DS9 - Like TNG with backstory of Romulans, Cardassians, and Bajorans, but not re-watchable, other than Quark: "What's the point in going into business if you can't corner the market!"
4. Picard - Very enjoyable.
5. Lower Decks - Fantastic.
6. Discovery - Not Star Trek, but high production value.
7. Enterprise - Boring.
8. TOS - Just can't get passed that pinging sound! You may think I'm kidding but I'm serious, the pinging sound makes the show 8th, it's that bad to me!
9 & 10. Animated Series & Short Treks - Never seen them so I can't comment.

 

[Totenkindly]

Devil in the Dark is probably my favorite episode I've seen so far. Plus, it has my favorite.. "i'm a doctor not a..." [bricklayer]. Balance of Terror is pretty good. And of course I liked Amok Time for fleshing out the Vulcan species. I've also seen Mirror, MIrror, the Trouble with Tribbles, Errand of Mercy, and Let That Be Your Last Battlefield. I enjoy the first two, the latter left me a little cold, I think because the cold war allegory doesn't do a lot for me as someone who had the end of the cold war as one of their early memories.

Ah. Yeah, I fully caught the end of the cold war and was always wondering when the nukes were gonna drop on us and what that would mean.

The wall came down in Berlin when I was in college and it was bizarre. Like... that's it? It's over? What??

I was telling my son about Let That Be Your Last Battlefield and said they were black and white chasing each other and he didn't get what the point was until I explained that they were literally black and white vs white and black (each split down the middle but just opposites) -- and then he got it. He was born in the mid 90's.

Most of the episodes people are talking about were my go-to episodes as well, although I read all the James Blish adaptations before I saw every episode.

Yeah, City on the Edge of Forever led to a lot more similar things in the genre. I am not much into the time period that episode was shot in, but I think it was one of my earlier experiences of tragic reality... that someone can want to do good things that end up leading to awful things because of how everything fits together. IOW, Edith Keeler was doing something right in itself but it ended up being utterly the wrong thing at the time and thus totally harmful. It's a bittersweet kind of loss.



I guess different strokes and all that. I watched two seasons of Voyager and drifted away and never went back, nor do I care to, really. But that has been my thing with Trek in general... I'm decently aware of what is going on in the franchise for not being hard-core every series that has come out, but I'm somewhat indifferent to all of it at this point in life. My sensibilities changed away from their typical format over the years I guess... I'm kinda turned off by most things Star Wars at this point too, it's all kind of its own genre but the tone and style isn't necessarily my preference.

I did start watching Lower Decks season 2 now. I have heard they are revisiting / meta-commenting on Tasha Yar now, lol, so I REALLY have to see the Skein of Evil tie-in. How that TNG episode was implemented was kind of lame, but I really liked the concept.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Ah. Yeah, I fully caught the end of the cold war and was always wondering when the nukes were gonna drop on us and what that would mean.

The wall came down in Berlin when I was in college and it was bizarre. Like... that's it? It's over? What??

I was telling my son about Let That Be Your Last Battlefield and said they were black and white chasing each other and he didn't get what the point was until I explained that they were literally black and white vs white and black (each split down the middle but just opposites) -- and then he got it. He was born in the mid 90's.

Most of the episodes people are talking about were my go-to episodes as well, although I read all the James Blish adaptations before I saw every episode.

Yeah, City on the Edge of Forever led to a lot more similar things in the genre. I am not much into the time period that episode was shot in, but I think it was one of my earlier experiences of tragic reality... that someone can want to do good things that end up leading to awful things because of how everything fits together. IOW, Edith Keeler was doing something right in itself but it ended up being utterly the wrong thing at the time and thus totally harmful. It's a bittersweet kind of loss.



I guess different strokes and all that. I watched two seasons of Voyager and drifted away and never went back, nor do I care to, really. But that has been my thing with Trek in general... I'm decently aware of what is going on in the franchise for not being hard-core every series that has come out, but I'm somewhat indifferent to all of it at this point in life. My sensibilities changed away from their typical format over the years I guess... I'm kinda turned off by most things Star Wars at this point too, it's all kind of its own genre but the tone and style isn't necessarily my preference.

I did start watching Lower Decks season 2 now. I have heard they are revisiting / meta-commenting on Tasha Yar now, lol, so I REALLY have to see the Skein of Evil tie-in. How that TNG episode was implemented was kind of lame, but I really liked the concept.

Actually, I realize I haven't seen "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield." I was confusing that with "Day of the Dove", where there's an energy orb making the Enterprise and the Klingons fight each other. Given that, I withdraw my opinion on "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield."

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Let That Be Your Last Battlefield feels a lot like something Rod Serling might have written for The Twilight Zone.

 

[Totenkindly]

It is definitely a visual icon for the series -- the appearance of the two aliens was distinctive and you only need a glimpse to know immediately what episode it was and that it's STTOS.

I guess the pizza monster would be the same though. [I really liked that episode too, because of the twist ... showing how bad it is to confuse "detrimental" with "evil", even if the ending seems a little too easily resolved... people don't release their prejudices so quickly.]

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

hey, I am thinking about doing some custom end credits for TNG, DS9 and VOY, but in the style of the TOS end credits. So instead of credits set against a boring starfield, it would be screencaps from each series set to the theme music. Anyone have good ideas for iconic images I could use?

Here is what I've thought of so far:

TNG:
-Picard onscreen as Locutus of Borg
-A shot of Armus from Skin of Evil
-Something silly like Dr. Crusher flirting with Picard in The Naked Now
-A shot of Guinan
-A shot of Q in his Judge's robes
-The alien Barash's true appearance from Future Imperfect
-A shot of Data in mid-laughter when Q briefly gave him the gift of laughter
-Dr. Crusher getting off with the 19th century candle ghost entity

DS9:
-Sisko as the mega villain in the episode where all of the main characters are stuck in Bashir's spy holosuite adventure
-Weyoun doing his evil grin
-Odo in tuxedo from the Vic Fontaine episode
-Quark screaming in terror at something
-Mirror Kira with Prime Kira
-Something from the Tribble time travel episode
-Something from the episode where they are in a shrunken spaceship
-Sisko punching Q

VOY:
-The Caretaker holding his banjo in human form
-The Rock doing an eyebrow raise from the UFC episode
-The Doctor with his fake holo family
-Something from the Captain Proton holo adventures, maybe a shot of Janeway as the Bride of Chaotica
-Borg Queen
-A shot of Paris and Janeway as salamanders
-Tuvix
-Tuvok choking Neelix to death
_Seven of Nine
-Voyager mid-crash landing on an ice planet


I also might do some for the films, similar to the style of the end credits from Voyage Home (itself an obvious homage to TOS), each one showing a succession of images from each film. There's some iconic images that could be used, like Spock's trippy spacewalk in Motion Picture.

 

[Paisley]

If you were to rank all the Star Trek series from best to worst, 1 to 10, what would it be and why?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

If you were to rank all the Star Trek series from best to worst, 1 to 10, what would it be and why?

I haven't seen enough of them but in terms of theme song Enterprise is bottom. I'll have to skip it every time I watch it when I get to it.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

1. DS9
2. TNG
3. VOY
4. TOS
5. ENT
6. TAS
7. DIS
8. PIC

I haven't watched Lower Decks or Short Treks yet so didn't include them here


And here is my ranking of the films:

1. TMP
2. Voyage Home
3. Wrath of Khan
4. Search for Spock
5. Insurrection
6. The Undiscovered Country
7. Generations
8. First Contact
9. The Final Frontier
10. Beyond
11. Trek '09
12. Nemesis
13. Into Darkness

 

[Paisley]

1. DS9
2. TNG
3. VOY
4. TOS
5. ENT
6. TAS
7. DIS
8. PIC

I haven't watched Lower Decks or Short Treks yet so didn't include them here


And here is my ranking of the films:

1. TMP
2. Voyage Home
3. Wrath of Khan
4. Search for Spock
5. Insurrection
6. The Undiscovered Country
7. Generations
8. First Contact
9. The Final Frontier
10. Beyond
11. Trek '09
12. Nemesis
13. Into Darkness

DS9 was such a fun ride, I get it.

I see you have harsher criticism than me for Picard and Discovery though, and I find I'm pretty brutal towards them. I'd like to know why Picard is last? Is it because it's serialized, politically correct, with preachy leftist propaganda? I still enjoy the journey of Picard, because the production value is high and it's so well executed, even when the message is like nails on a chalkboard.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

DS9 was such a fun ride, I get it.

I see you have harsher criticism than me for Picard and Discovery though, and I find I'm pretty brutal towards them. I'd like to know why Picard is last? Is it because it's serialized, politically correct, with preachy leftist propaganda? I still enjoy the journey of Picard, because the production value is high and it's so well executed, even when the message is like nails on a chalkboard.

I didn't care for the direction the character has been taken in (though this started with his portrayal in the films, to be fair). I think TNG more or less neatly wrapped up Picard's character arc. I was initially glad to hear about a show actually moving forward on the timeline (considering everything since Enterprise has been either a prequel or loose reboot set in the "past"), but I think they didn't go forward far enough. I'd set it at least 100 years after the events of TNG. Of course Discovery time jumped forward, and while it's nice to see them abandon the 23rd century, there's too many other problems with that show.

regarding Discovery, I just find it unengaging and too similar to other current sci-fi, much of which seems to glamorize a grimdark dystopian future in which the greatest threats tend to be boring big bad villains that want to watch the world or universe burn. I find the characters bland and uninteresting, and poorly written. Half of them I'd have a hard time naming any notable traits beyond their physical appearances. The production value is high, I will give it that, but it takes more than things exploding and characters doing acrobatic shit with swords and martial arts to make compelling space opera/sci-fi. It's all window dressing, no substance behind it. Forced emotion is another thing that kind of annoys me. More than any previous ST show did it, Discovery seems to be full of moments where the creators seem to take a tell rather than show approach to emphasize high stakes and drama (example, frequent zoom-ins on character's faces and swelling music---ah so the music is telling me this is a scene with a lot of emotional weight, despite me not feeling much. Sure, earlier Trek did this to an extent, but they've really taken it to new levels and at least when it happened before, there was usually strong writing or some sense of investment in the characters)

Also a waste of good actors on both Picard and Doscovery.

This is all just personal opinion. I almost didn't post it, because I'm really not trying to turn others off and I'm kind of past the point of caring as much as I used to about it. If people enjoy those shows, more power to them, and I'm happy if it brings newer fans who will then take the time to discover some of the great episodes from previous series. It also means the franchise is kept alive, and eventually new showrunners or writers will come along and possibly make something I love. I'm Okay waiting, even if that never happens, because there's enough of the old stuff I enjoy to return to when the mood hits me.

 

[Paisley]

I didn't care for the direction the character has been taken in (though this started with his portrayal in the films, to be fair). I think TNG more or less neatly wrapped up Picard's character arc. I was initially glad to hear about a show actually moving forward on the timeline (considering everything since Enterprise has been either a prequel or loose reboot set in the "past"), but I think they didn't go forward far enough. I'd set it at least 100 years after the events of TNG. Of course Discovery time jumped forward, and while it's nice to see them abandon the 23rd century, there's too many other problems with that show.

regarding Discovery, I just find it unengaging and too similar to other current sci-fi, much of which seems to glamorize a grimdark dystopian future in which the greatest threats tend to be boring big bad villains that want to watch the world or universe burn. I find the characters bland and uninteresting, and poorly written. Half of them I'd have a hard time naming any notable traits beyond their physical appearances. The production value is high, I will give it that, but it takes more than things exploding and characters doing acrobatic shit with swords and martial arts to make compelling space opera/sci-fi. It's all window dressing, no substance behind it. Forced emotion is another thing that kind of annoys me. More than any previous ST show did it, Discovery seems to be full of moments where the creators seem to take a tell rather than show approach to emphasize high stakes and drama (example, frequent zoom-ins on character's faces and swelling music---ah so the music is telling me this is a scene with a lot of emotional weight, despite me not feeling much. Sure, earlier Trek did this to an extent, but they've really taken it to new levels and at least when it happened before, there was usually strong writing or some sense of investment in the characters)

Also a waste of good actors on both Picard and Doscovery.

This is all just personal opinion. I almost didn't post it, because I'm really not trying to turn others off and I'm kind of past the point of caring as much as I used to about it. If people enjoy those shows, more power to them, and I'm happy if it brings newer fans who will then take the time to discover some of the great episodes from previous series. It also means the franchise is kept alive, and eventually new showrunners or writers will come along and possibly make something I love. I'm Okay waiting, even if that never happens, because there's enough of the old stuff I enjoy to return to when the mood hits me.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, and I resonate with your sentiments.

A few things I don't quite understand are how a show about Jean Luc Picard would work 100 years after TNG? He'd be dead. Do you mean, a different Star Trek series altogether like something post trek Romulan related? If so, I totally agree! Yes! That'd be amazing.

You seem more adverse towards Discovery, yet you ranked it higher than Picard, it must be that Picard was a real let down of what you'd want from a new Star Trek series, and I understand that. Also, serialized shows just don't have the beat and meter, the pacing, the level of storytelling, that more procedural shows allow, nor the amount of episodes (from 25 down to 10), they're hard to even consider as TV, they're more like long term mini-series, rather than TV shows with only 10 episodes per season. I totally agree with you about the characters on Discovery being caricatures that are over dramatized, like I always say, they seem like they're one show tune away from breaking out in song, and not legitimate people, especially the music, zoom in's, some over acting, some heavy handed situations, ya, it all accumulates to not Star Trek.

I agree, we need these new Trek shows to succeed, so that the possibility of a good Trek show be made, but it's just a hard sell, to everyone who's seen TNG, DS9, and Voyager, because if people like Picard and Discovery too much, they'll just keep making more bad Star Trek. It kinda sucks, I get it.

Thanks again for responding.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Yes, I meant they should've set it after Picard's lifetime. I've had enough Kirk and now enough Picard; surely there are other interesting characters in this fictional universe we could explore. Even Discovery starts out with original characters, but then they just had to find some way to work in Spock. It's as if the current writers and rights holders aren't confident enough and have to keep bringing back familiar characters and namedrops to keep people watching, when newer fans probably don't care that much anyway, and half the older fans are just going to cringe and complain about fan service. The original TNG, DS9 and VOY are proof that people will accept Trek without iconic characters popping up left and right from earlier series. OK, so I know all the series featured cameos from prior series, but they were usually limited to one episode appearances and usually said cameos at least felt more organic in the context of the fictional universe.

I also think a time jump forward from that TNG/DS9/VOY era would provide a fresh start for the franchise. Setting it further ahead would allow them to go in radical directions or try new things, whilst keeping the old continuity and canon untouched--it's good Discovery did a big time jump, because it allows them to create a premise and a conflict that might not otherwise work if set in the 23rd or even the 24th centuries. I just wish they'd set it further ahead from the start instead of waiting this long.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yes, I meant they should've set it after Picard's lifetime. I've had enough Kirk and now enough Picard; surely there are other interesting characters in this fictional universe we could explore. Even Discovery starts out with original characters, but then they just had to find some way to work in Spock. It's as if the current writers and rights holders aren't confident enough and have to keep bringing back familiar characters and namedrops to keep people watching. The original TNG, DS9 and VOY are proof that people will accept Trek without iconic characters popping up left and right from earlier series.

I also think a time jump forward from that TNG/DS9/VOY era would provide a fresh start for the franchise. Setting it further ahead would allow them to go in radical directions or try new things, whilst keeping the old continuity and canon untouched--it's good Discovery did a big time jump, because it allows them to create a premise and a conflict that might not otherwise work if set in the 23rd or even the 24th centuries. I just wish they'd set it further ahead from the start.

How about we have GRANDCHILDREN of all the original character. We could have Picard's granddaughter date Kirk's great-grandson. I love hearing about legacies and the idea that anyone of any worth is descended from somebody extremely important.

Given the idiocy of our cultural moment, that's probably the best you could hope for. Sorry, 9/11 CHANGED EVERYTHING.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

How about we have GRANDCHILDREN of all the original character. We could have Picard's granddaughter date Kirk's great-grandson. I love hearing about legacies and the idea that anyone of any worth is descended from somebody important.

If they go for a muppet babies kind of thing, maybe i'd be on board with the idea

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

If they go for a muppet babies kind of thing, maybe i'd be on board with the idea

Wasn't that what J.J did?

We can do the muppet babies approach or we can do everyone is related and a legacy. You have to pick one or the other!