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Random political thought thread.

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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Jun 6, 2008
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22,104
I fear he not only understands, but is hoping for it to use it as an excuse to declare war.

If we go in that direction with logic I think he is planning something else (with exception of Mexico and border problems). The thing is that most of the corporations that do international trade are in blue states. What is basically the main reason why those tend to have higher GDP per capita. Therefore when you mess up the free trade you will destroy good chunk of that ecosystem. In other words data clearly shows that the Democrats need to have significant money advantage to have a shoot at winning various key elections. Therefore once you cripple that ecosystem the entire electoral dynamic changes and expectations will move further right. Since Democrats without money advantage are evidently behind in all key parts of the country.

So if you want a bet from my side this is what is actually going on.
 

SensEye

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INTp
Trump says Canada, Mexico, China tariffs may bring 'pain'

This is a little bit bigger read but it is detailed summary of the trade mess that is coming into play.
But we warned, after reading this you may have problems sleeping tonight.
Everybody is going to feel pain from Trump's stupidity. Canada and Mexico can't really afford to play tit-for-tat tariffs with the USA due to the size disparity in market value. Although some attempts must be made.

However, this has to be inflationary for the US consumer. Especially things like food from Mexico, where the pain should be felt quickly and repeatedly. Canada tariffs will hit more of a resource and auto/machine parts sectors, the inflation from that will take a bit longer to filter through. People don't pay all that much attention to politics and the details of policy decisions, but they understand higher prices.

Bottom line, only pain to the American consumer (and voter) can stop Trump. Maybe by the midterms that will manifest, one hopes. One also hopes the Dems have some palatable leadership in place by that time. General chaos and possible recession (likely in Canada and Mexico not so much the US) for the next two years though.

And, of course, the circus is just getting started.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
22,104
Everybody is going to feel pain from Trump's stupidity. Canada and Mexico can't really afford to play tit-for-tat tariffs with the USA due to the size disparity in market value. Although some attempts must be made.

However, this has to be inflationary for the US consumer. Especially things like food from Mexico, where the pain should be felt quickly and repeatedly. Canada tariffs will hit more of a resource and auto/machine parts sectors, the inflation from that will take a bit longer to filter through. People don't pay all that much attention to politics and the details of policy decisions, but they understand higher prices.

Bottom line, only pain to the American consumer (and voter) can stop Trump. Maybe by the midterms that will manifest, one hopes. One also hopes the Dems have some palatable leadership in place by that time. General chaos and possible recession (likely in Canada and Mexico not so much the US) for the next two years though.

And, of course, the circus is just getting started.

If Canada and Mexico were his only targets US would still be kinda ok. However he is adding more tariffs on China. He plans to escalate with whole Europe and says bad things about Europe. The tensions are also growing with Latin America and some other places. If he does everything he said he will do all of this should sort itself out much sooner than the midterms. How exactly will the end result look like is another matter.
 

SensEye

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If Canada and Mexico were his only targets US would still be kinda ok. However he is adding more tariffs on China. He plans to escalate with whole Europe and says bad things about Europe. The tensions are also growing with Latin America and some other places. If he does everything he said he will do all of this should sort itself out much sooner than the midterms. How exactly will the end result look like is another matter.
True. I came across this post (have to cut/paste it as I don't have link the to original article) that sums it up pretty well:

“I’m going to get a little wonky and write about Donald Trump and negotiations. For those who don't know, I'm an adjunct professor at Indiana University - Robert H. McKinney School of Law and I teach negotiations. Okay, here goes.
Trump, as most of us know, is the credited author of "The Art of the Deal," a book that was actually ghost written by a man named Tony Schwartz, who was given access to Trump and wrote based upon his observations. If you've read The Art of the Deal, or if you've followed Trump lately, you'll know, even if you didn't know the label, that he sees all dealmaking as what we call "distributive bargaining."
Distributive bargaining always has a winner and a loser. It happens when there is a fixed quantity of something and two sides are fighting over how it gets distributed. Think of it as a pie and you're fighting over who gets how many pieces. In Trump's world, the bargaining was for a building, or for construction work, or subcontractors. He perceives a successful bargain as one in which there is a winner and a loser, so if he pays less than the seller wants, he wins. The more he saves the more he wins.
The other type of bargaining is called integrative bargaining. In integrative bargaining the two sides don't have a complete conflict of interest, and it is possible to reach mutually beneficial agreements. Think of it, not a single pie to be divided by two hungry people, but as a baker and a caterer negotiating over how many pies will be baked at what prices, and the nature of their ongoing relationship after this one gig is over.
The problem with Trump is that he sees only distributive bargaining in an international world that requires integrative bargaining. He can raise tariffs, but so can other countries. He can't demand they not respond. There is no defined end to the negotiation and there is no simple winner and loser. There are always more pies to be baked. Further, negotiations aren't binary. China's choices aren't (a) buy soybeans from US farmers, or (b) don't buy soybeans. They can also (c) buy soybeans from Russia, or Argentina, or Brazil, or Canada, etc. That completely strips the distributive bargainer of his power to win or lose, to control the negotiation.
One of the risks of distributive bargaining is bad will. In a one-time distributive bargain, e.g. negotiating with the cabinet maker in your casino about whether you're going to pay his whole bill or demand a discount, you don't have to worry about your ongoing credibility or the next deal. If you do that to the cabinet maker, you can bet he won't agree to do the cabinets in your next casino, and you're going to have to find another cabinet maker.
There isn't another Canada.
So when you approach international negotiation, in a world as complex as ours, with integrated economies and multiple buyers and sellers, you simply must approach them through integrative bargaining. If you attempt distributive bargaining, success is impossible. And we see that already.
Trump has raised tariffs on China. China responded, in addition to raising tariffs on US goods, by dropping all its soybean orders from the US and buying them from Russia. The effect is not only to cause tremendous harm to US farmers, but also to increase Russian revenue, making Russia less susceptible to sanctions and boycotts, increasing its economic and political power in the world, and reducing ours. Trump saw steel and aluminum and thought it would be an easy win, BECAUSE HE SAW ONLY STEEL AND ALUMINUM - HE SEES EVERY NEGOTIATION AS DISTRIBUTIVE. China saw it as integrative, and integrated Russia and its soybean purchase orders into a far more complex negotiation ecosystem.
Trump has the same weakness politically. For every winner there must be a loser. And that's just not how politics works, not over the long run.
For people who study negotiations, this is incredibly basic stuff, negotiations 101, definitions you learn before you even start talking about styles and tactics. And here's another huge problem for us.
Trump is utterly convinced that his experience in a closely held real estate company has prepared him to run a nation, and therefore he rejects the advice of people who spent entire careers studying the nuances of international negotiations and diplomacy. But the leaders on the other side of the table have not eschewed expertise, they have embraced it. And that means they look at Trump and, given his very limited tool chest and his blindly distributive understanding of negotiation, they know exactly what he is going to do and exactly how to respond to it.
From a professional negotiation point of view, Trump isn't even bringing checkers to a chess match. He's bringing a quarter that he insists of flipping for heads or tails, while everybody else is studying the chess board to decide whether its better to open with Najdorf or Grünfeld.”
— David Honig
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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True. I came across this post (have to cut/paste it as I don't have link the to original article) that sums it up pretty well:

Yes, that sums it nicely.

In other words if others decide to coordinate against his tariffs there will be a debacle for US economy. Especially since US is only 4% of the global population and there is less and less of what they can offer that others can't. In other words over the last 10 years Trump has shown that geography isn't his strongest point. What leaves the impression that he doesn't seem to understand into what he is getting himself into.
 

The Cat

The Cat in the Tinfoil Hat..
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They want slaves not employees.
Lives are for CEO's not slaves apparently.
 

The Cat

The Cat in the Tinfoil Hat..
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Hakeem Jefferies is a collaborator with the current administration.
Stop being surprised when he keeps doing collaborator shit.
He doesnt represent anyone but the same billionare's pulling off a coup.
He's an oligarch dick sucker.​
 

ceecee

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It feels like I posted this back when it was published in 2021 but on the tariff topic...


Meanwhile, Trump’s claim that increased revenue from the tariffs would help eliminate (or at least reduce) our national debt hasn’t panned out. In 2018, Trump’s administration began hiking tariffs on aluminum, steel and many other products, launching what became a global trade war with China, the European Union and other countries.

The tariffs did bring in additional revenue. In fiscal 2019, they netted about $71 billion, up about $36 billion from President Barack Obama’s last year in office. But although $36 billion is a lot of money, it’s less than 1/750th of the national debt. That $36 billion could have covered a bit more than three weeks of interest on the national debt — that is, had Trump not unilaterally decided to send a chunk of the tariff revenue to farmers affected by his trade wars. Businesses that struggled as a result of the tariffs also paid fewer taxes, offsetting some of the increased tariff revenue.
3 presidents - Lincoln, W and Trump had the largest increases in debt. Lincoln due to needing to pay for the Civil War. W due to idiot tax cuts and starting 2 wars. And Trump......no fucking clue. We can knock a couple trillion off for Covid just to make it fair.
 

The Cat

The Cat in the Tinfoil Hat..
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I wonder what kind of head Eric Adams woke up to in his bed to get him on board with the criminals running the country.​
 

Red Herring

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He used to be high on his own supply. Now he has turned it up a notch and is snorting the uncut Russian stuff.
 

ygolo

My termites win
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Aug 6, 2007
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I'm not sure what history to study in detail, but I want to. My motivation is to understand more what's happening now.

The guilded age come to mind(and the progressive era as counterpoint). But I feel like Germany under Hiltler is relevant also.
 
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