Random political thought thread.

[Red Herring]

I just came across a really weird Facebook profile.

Atlas Obscura posted something about German Christmas markets, some sort of tourist guide to the best bratwurst and mulled wine. The reactions included one angry face. I got curious who that Grinch was that had to publically proclaim their dislike of Christmas markets.
It's a guy with a Slavic sounding name who - as far as his publically visible posts go - has in recent times exclusively posted Russian banners, glorified images of Russian soldiers and lots of "Z". Additionally some anti-EU and pro-Orban stuff. He posted something about Crimea being Russian the year before the war but before that his posts were suddenly all about Trump and MAGA and how Biden belonged in prison. Consistently over a prolonged period of time. No visible private posts, only politics.

Whoever this person is, they have for years supported both Putin and the war in Ukraine as well as Trump and hate the Western world as such enough to poopoo on gingerbread houses and carousel rides for children.

Real person or bot? If this is a bot, why angry react to an apolitical Atlas Obscura post just because it contains the word "Germany" (I assume that's what triggered this)?

 

[The Cat]

I just came across a really weird Facebook profile.

Atlas Obscura posted something about German Christmas markets, some sort of tourist guide to the best bratwurst and mulled wine. The reactions included one angry face. I got curious who that Grinch was that had to publically proclaim their dislike of Christmas markets.
It's a guy with a Slavic sounding name who - as far as his publically visible posts go - has in recent times exclusively posted Russian banners, glorified images of Russian soldiers and lots of "Z". Additionally some anti-EU and pro-Orban stuff. He posted something about Crimea being Russian the year before the war but before that his posts were suddenly all about Trump and MAGA and how Biden belonged in prison. Consistently over a prolonged period of time. No visible private posts, only politics.

Whoever this person is, they have for years supported both Putin and the war in Ukraine as well as Trump and hate the Western world as such enough to poopoo on gingerbread houses and carousel rides for children.

Real person or bot? If this is a bot, why angry react to an apolitical Atlas Obscura post just because it contains the word "Germany" (I assume that's what triggered this)?

I would assume it's a form of fishing for anyone who might take a bite? It might look into anyone else who reacts similarly and someone might reach out or an algorythm sort of thing?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I just came across a really weird Facebook profile.

Atlas Obscura posted something about German Christmas markets, some sort of tourist guide to the best bratwurst and mulled wine. The reactions included one angry face. I got curious who that Grinch was that had to publically proclaim their dislike of Christmas markets.
It's a guy with a Slavic sounding name who - as far as his publically visible posts go - has in recent times exclusively posted Russian banners, glorified images of Russian soldiers and lots of "Z". Additionally some anti-EU and pro-Orban stuff. He posted something about Crimea being Russian the year before the war but before that his posts were suddenly all about Trump and MAGA and how Biden belonged in prison. Consistently over a prolonged period of time. No visible private posts, only politics.

Whoever this person is, they have for years supported both Putin and the war in Ukraine as well as Trump and hate the Western world as such enough to poopoo on gingerbread houses and carousel rides for children.

Real person or bot? If this is a bot, why angry react to an apolitical Atlas Obscura post just because it contains the word "Germany" (I assume that's what triggered this)?

Honestly, and maybe this is inappropriate, but reading about this made me laugh. It's just so sad and pathetic...

 

[Virtual ghost]

I just came across a really weird Facebook profile.

Atlas Obscura posted something about German Christmas markets, some sort of tourist guide to the best bratwurst and mulled wine. The reactions included one angry face. I got curious who that Grinch was that had to publically proclaim their dislike of Christmas markets.
It's a guy with a Slavic sounding name who - as far as his publically visible posts go - has in recent times exclusively posted Russian banners, glorified images of Russian soldiers and lots of "Z". Additionally some anti-EU and pro-Orban stuff. He posted something about Crimea being Russian the year before the war but before that his posts were suddenly all about Trump and MAGA and how Biden belonged in prison. Consistently over a prolonged period of time. No visible private posts, only politics.

Whoever this person is, they have for years supported both Putin and the war in Ukraine as well as Trump and hate the Western world as such enough to poopoo on gingerbread houses and carousel rides for children.

Real person or bot? If this is a bot, why angry react to an apolitical Atlas Obscura post just because it contains the word "Germany" (I assume that's what triggered this)?

When I say that I have whole political parties that don't really recognize the fall of the Berlin wall as desirable this is exactly the mindset I think about. This entire western picture of the world where everyone wanted to bring the wall down and how it was horrible behind it is basically very idolized picture of the world. There were people who guarded that wall and today there are evidently those that want to build it back. Especially since they are all across Slavic world and they aren't rare at all. The war in Ukraine wouldn't have happened that there isn't an entire ecosystem of politicians, companies, media, and followers/voters in the region that are for it. I mean this isn't even subtle, openly pro Russian media, politicians smearing NATO into the camera, Russian banks, Russian energy, Russian magazines at kiosks ...... at one point it almost looked as it is game over. But then the war started due to "someones" overconfidence and collactive west decided to play the game. Therefore the sanctions really fried large chunks of this ecosystem.


I happen to have pro western government and that allowed implementation of sanctions. However much of the political influence still remained. While in many neighboring countries with much more pro Russian governments the changes aren't that big. The whole west is in confusion how Orban dares to go against the west over and over. While in reality he has huge number of backers. Comrades that run current Slovakian government, Populists in Czechia that will probably come back to power, Bulgarian mafia that basically runs the country, Serbs never stopped being pro Russia, in Montenegro a few year ago they were even trying to push referendum on NATO exit (and that referendum almost became a reality), lately we see what is going on in Romania, Democracy in Turkey is basically only on paper ... etc etc.


At the end of the day there really is impression that the western media haven't said some things to the average western person.

 

[Red Herring]

When I say that I have whole political parties that don't really recognize the fall of the Berlin wall as desirable this is exactly the mindset I think about. This entire western picture of the world where everyone wanted to bring the wall down and how it was horrible behind it is basically very idolized picture of the world. There were people who guarded that wall and today there are evidently those that want to build it back. Especially since they are all across Slavic world and they aren't rare at all. The war in Ukraine wouldn't have happened that there isn't an entire ecosystem of politicians, companies, media, and followers/voters in the region that are for it. I mean this isn't even subtle, openly pro Russian media, politicians smearing NATO into the camera, Russian banks, Russian energy, Russian magazines at kiosks ...... at one point it almost looked as it is game over. But then the war started due to "someones" overconfidence and collactive west decided to play the game. Therefore the sanctions really fried large chunks of this ecosystem.


I happen to have pro western government and that allowed implementation of sanctions. However much of the political influence still remained. While in many neighboring countries with much more pro Russian governments the changes aren't that big. The whole west is in confusion how Orban dares to go against the west over and over. While in reality he has huge number of backers. Comrades that run current Slovakian government, Populists in Czechia that will probably come back to power, Bulgarian mafia that basically runs the country, Serbs never stopped being pro Russia, in Montenegro a few year ago they were even trying to push referendum on NATO exit (and that referendum almost became a reality), lately we see what is going on in Romania, Democracy in Turkey is basically only on paper ... etc etc.


At the end of the day there really is impression that the western media haven't said some things to the average western person.

I know all that. I was pointing out that there are people out there who a) hate the West enough to angry react to a tourism post in Christmas markets and simultaneously b) hype Donald Trump. Probably not a surprise to many in the forum but something his followers seems to prefer to ignore. He was and is the candidate of choice of the enemies of America and that should never be stopped being pointed out.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I know all that. I was pointing out that there are people out there who a) hate the West enough to angry react to a tourism post in Christmas markets and simultaneously b) hype Donald Trump. Probably not a surprise to many in the forum but something his followers seems to prefer to ignore. He was and is the candidate of choice of the enemies of America and that should never be stopped being pointed out.

I know that you know, but I am not sure how many here pay attention to my thread on the subject.


In other words these people hate the west to the point that all spiting on it is ok in their book. Even if it something silly as Christmas market. In a sense this is hate just for the sake of hate. However this is exactly why we should take them seriously. Especially since their logic is evidently "the end justifies the means".

On the other hand these people like Trump primarily because they see him as someone who will create chaos in USA and actively pull the country towards isolationism (what includes dumping traditional allies in the process) . What should then allow them to take much larger piece of the cake with minimal efforts. This is exactly why increased military/security spending in Europe doesn't really have alternative at this point. What also includes cleaning of Russian influence in the EU (and especially in eastern EU where there is plenty of it). Plus they are hoping that western Europe will not be able to find common ground with him on anything. What would lead to dissolution of the west in the big picture (what isn't unrealistic scenario).


However what the typical western media wouldn't tell you is that the east is gambling with Trump. They are gambling that his unhinged persona will destroy the west before it will destroy them. I mean they supported him on the internet but at the end of the day if he hits China with 60% tariff that evidently means that their plans have backfired. In other words they can't take on the west directly and that means that they have to water it down as much as possible. Therefore they are hoping that Trump as the ultimate wildcard will do the trick. But that is the strategy that is on the level of throwing a dice across the table. In a sense his is everyone's kryptonite and therefore everyone wants to throw it at the opponents half of the playing field. Since he has unique ability to make people go crazy. In other words if he is the man that most of MSM claim he is then Putin would have invaded while he was the president. Not to mention that he wouldn't make an endless push that Germany gets of Russian energy and increase military spending. Therefore the odds are that at the end of the day he will brake something. The only thing that is unclear is will that be the west or the east. However to the east that 50:50 is still acceptable as odds, since this are the best odds they can hope for at the moment.


Therefore this is all much more complicated story than most people think.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Well, when I think about the far right in the U.S, there's been a pro-Russian element for quite some time. This is before Trump even emerged on the scene, even before what happened with Crimea. I remember stumbling on to a few internet forums with people who thought Russia was awesome. (It was a forum for people who wanted to bring back skull measurements, basically.)

There is no element of strategy to this, it's a matter of ideological affinity. They like Russia because Russia thinks the same way. I would assume they want the U.S. to be more like Russia and just jail people like Pussy Riot.

I think for the person mentioned by Red Herring, it's probably the same thing. They see in Trump a like-minded person, and that's why they stan him. I know there are paid Russian trolls, but they're probably not all paid.

I'm not even convinced that the affinity between Trump and Putin has occurred due to strategic considerations on either end. I think within the realm of foreign relations people make the assumption that the players are rational actors who are capable of acting in their self-interest like that.

Remember Nicky and Willy and how that worked out. Remember also that people usually don't learn anything from history.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

"
Hillbilly Elegy is garbage.
What's the Matter with Kansas? by Thomas Frank is much better."

- Me on social media just now.

 

[The Cat]

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

My State Senator is cool. He gets it.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

You know what? This is a great source for local news.

https://news.wttw.com/2024/12/12/mayor-brandon-johnson-plans-call-budget-vote-sources

 

[ygolo]

I didn't know about any ties the Pod Save people had to other organizations.

I thought of the Pod Save America as anti-establishment heroes that brought us more Obama energy.

I've been becoming increasingly disappointed and disillusioned with these guys.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I didn't know about any ties the Pod Save people had to other organizations.

I thought of the Pod Save America as anti-establishment heroes that brought us more Obama energy.

I've been becoming increasingly disappointed and disillusioned with these guys.

In truth, when I attempt to analyze everything objectively. I'm not quite sure what to make of Obama. His effect was to calm down and put a damper on (or channel) the anti-establishment energy that accumulated during the Bush administration. I'm not certain that's what he intended to do. He does seem to always tell people to not get angry and calm down. I was amenable to that often when he was in office, but now I think this is incorrect. Anger is natural and can serve an important function; it shouldn't be suppressed just because it's more important that things continue to be normal. Anger can motivate you to do things that are necessary, it can allow you to keep fighting, it can serve all kinds of important roles.

I think his rhetoric had the effect of deflating the air out of whatever grassroots energy existed for positive change.

Remember Occupy Wallstreet? That ultimately seems like it was channeled into his re-election campaign. I don't know what's going on inside head so perhaps he had good intentions. Do not, however, get me started about his intervention in the 2020 primaries.

 

[Coriolis]

In truth, when I attempt to analyze everything objectively. I'm not quite sure what to make of Obama. His effect was to calm down and put a damper on (or channel) the anti-establishment energy that accumulated during the Bush administration. I'm not certain that's what he intended to do. He does seem to always tell people to not get angry and calm down. I was amenable to that often when he was in office, but now I think this is incorrect. Anger is natural and can serve an important function; it shouldn't be suppressed just because it's more important that things continue to be normal. Anger can motivate you to do things that are necessary, it can allow you to keep fighting, it can serve all kinds of important roles.

I think his rhetoric had the effect of deflating the air out of whatever grassroots energy existed for positive change.

Remember Occupy Wallstreet? That ultimately seems like it was channeled into his re-election campaign. I don't know what's going on inside head so perhaps he had good intentions. Do not, however, get me started about his intervention in the 2020 primaries.

One thing Obama often did say was "Don't boo - vote!" I think this is correct in that the anger needs to be channeled into constructive action, whether voting, writing to your representatives, running for office, joining civic and community groups taking action locally, etc.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

One thing Obama often did say was "Don't boo - vote!" I think this is correct in that the anger needs to be channeled into constructive action, whether voting, writing to your representatives, running for office, joining civic and community groups taking action locally, etc.

Yes.

But when politicians and political parties keep frustrating those efforts, what then? It's hard for me to not regard it as anything other than sabotage.

 

[Coriolis]

Yes.

But when politicians and political parties keep frustrating those efforts, what then? It's hard for me to not regard it as anything other than sabotage.

Sure, on the part of the politicians doing the frustrating. People like the Obamas who encourage action are just the opposite. So act, however you are able. You can certainly vote, and make sure your vote is counted. You can actively campaign for politicians who you think can make a difference, especially on the local level. You can speak up around others. You can learn how to speak to people who have "drunk the kook-aid" and are taken in by the propaganda. You can volunteer for a group that is making a difference, whether in turning out the vote, helping people navigate the voting process, advocating for people harmed by bad government policy, etc.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Sure, on the part of the politicians doing the frustrating. People like the Obamas who encourage action are just the opposite. So act, however you are able. You can certainly vote, and make sure your vote is counted. You can actively campaign for politicians who you think can make a difference, especially on the local level. You can speak up around others. You can learn how to speak to people who have "drunk the kook-aid" and are taken in by the propaganda. You can volunteer for a group that is making a difference, whether in turning out the vote, helping people navigate the voting process, advocating for people harmed by bad government policy, etc.

I think you and I have a very different idea of how people should relate to politicians. I'm not an anarchist, so I'm not against them existing, but I think politicians should be accountable to the people. Due to the two-party system, this mechanism is screwed-up, and politicians can hold voters hostage, because they have nobody else to vote for. The way I see it, this is what the Democratic Party does. The Republican party doesn't work that way because Republican voters have a spine; there will be repercussions if Republican politicians vote against their values, such as they are. Democrats, on the other hand, feel they owe their politicians loyalty, which is a ridiculous thing to do if someone is behaving duplicitous.

I prefer Bernie Sanders to Obama on so many levels. I'll leave out the specifics and just say that I find "Not me, us" to be so much more inspiring than the words "Hope and Change" printed over a giant posterized head shot. If changes will actually happen, that is how they will actually occur, though all of us and not through a messianic figure who supposedly knows how to play 7D chess.

Before anyone calls me a hypocrite by supporting a figure like Sanders, the reason I like him is that he's clearly someone who gets it (which matters to me). We seem to be on the same page, more or less. He also has moments when he seems entirely disinterested in aesthetics, which I find charming. Consider his outfit at Biden's inauguration; just pure Vermont practicality, no style points. He's blunt in speech rather than flowery, and has a personality style which is both logical and passionate, which appeals to me for some reason.

 

[Coriolis]

I think you and I have a very different idea of how people should relate to politicians. I'm not an anarchist, so I'm not against them existing, but I think politicians should be accountable to the people. Due to the two-party system, this mechanism is screwed-up, and politicians can hold voters hostage, because they have nobody else to vote for. The way I see it, this is what the Democratic Party does. The Republican party doesn't work that way because Republican voters have a spine; there will be repercussions if Republican politicians vote against their values, such as they are. Democrats, on the other hand, feel they owe their politicians loyalty, which is a ridiculous thing to do if someone is behaving duplicitous.

I prefer Bernie Sanders to Obama on so many levels. I'll leave out the specifics and just say that I find "Not me, us" to be so much more inspiring than the words "Hope and Change" printed over a giant posterized head shot. If changes will actually happen, that is how they will actually occur, though all of us and not through a messianic figure who supposedly knows how to play 7D chess.

Before anyone calls me a hypocrite by supporting a figure like Sanders, the reason I like him is that he's clearly someone who gets it (which matters to me). We seem to be on the same page, more or less. He also has moments when he seems entirely disinterested in aesthetics, which I find charming. Consider his outfit at Biden's inauguration; just pure Vermont practicality, no style points. He's blunt in speech rather than flowery, and has a personality style which is both logical and passionate, which appeals to me for some reason.

What makes you think I disagree that politicians should be accountable to voters? I would prefer Bernie Sanders' policies to Obama's as well, but I prefer Obama to the people he ran against, and Republican candidates overall.

To me, though, the party loyalty is reversed. Republicans cling to politicians like Trump, despite the fact that they routinely act against their values. Their policies do not result in less government, or a better economy, or stronger families, or even a stronger defense, all traditional Republican values. If Democrats look like they are falling in line behind an insufficiently progressive candidate, it is usually because they know that fragmenting their support will lead to the Republican winning, which is worse than an inadequate Democrat. When Republicans turn against one of their own candidates, it is because they are not in lockstep with Trump. That's not voting for their own values or self interest, it's succumbing to a personality cult.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

What makes you think I disagree that politicians should be accountable to voters? I would prefer Bernie Sanders' policies to Obama's as well, but I prefer Obama to the people he ran against, and Republican candidates overall.

To me, though, the party loyalty is reversed. Republicans cling to politicians like Trump, despite the fact that they routinely act against their values. Their policies do not result in less government, or a better economy, or stronger families, or even a stronger defense, all traditional Republican values. If Democrats look like they are falling in line behind an insufficiently progressive candidate, it is usually because they know that fragmenting their support will lead to the Republican winning, which is worse than an inadequate Democrat. When Republicans turn against one of their own candidates, it is because they are not in lockstep with Trump. That's not voting for their own values or self interest, it's succumbing to a personality cult.

I preferred Obama as well. However, I'm curious about why Obama's coalition fell apart as soon as he could no longer run for office. What do you think happened there?

 

[Coriolis]

I preferred Obama as well. However, I'm curious about why Obama's coalition fell apart as soon as he could no longer run for office. What do you think happened there?

There was no leader of his caliber ready to take over. Bernie Sanders had the policies, but not the national stature and experience. Plus, many Democrats probably thought he was too progressive to win the necessary votes from independents and less conservative Republicans. That may have been inaccurate, but I suspect drove their reasoning. Hillary Clinton was every bit as capable as Obama, arguably more as she had more experience, but too many people simply didn't like her. I'm sure sexism played a role, perhaps not in the sense of people being unwilling to vote for a woman, but in holding female candidates to different standards of likability. Harris made a point to be much more likable and I think excelled at that. For her, there just might not have been enough time for her to reach and connect with enough voters.