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Random political thought thread.

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In his defense (and I can't believe I'm actually defending Musk and his ilk), Ramaswamy didn't say Americans were "too dumb to train". On the contrary, he explicitely stated that this was not a matter of intelligence but of culture, i.e. of anti-intellectualism and anti-science sentiments in the US (especially compared to China or India). I tend to agree with him.
These are extremely strong, maybe stronger than you think. Undoubtedly there are consequences for a culture that has that attitude. China is authoritarian but they take STEM seriously, for instance.


Here's more of what he said:

Ramaswamy, a first-generation U.S. citizen whose parents immigrated from India, concurred with Musk while defending companies that look outside the US for labor, arguing tech companies hire engineers who were born outside the U.S. or born to American immigrants because “American culture has venerated mediocrity over excellence,” citing portrayals of smart students in TV sitcoms “Boy Meets World,” “Saved By The Bell” and “Family Matters” as evidence.

“Our American culture has venerated mediocrity over excellence for way too long (at least since the 90s and likely longer). That doesn’t start in college, it starts YOUNG,” he wrote on Thursday. “A culture that celebrates the prom queen over the math olympiad champ, or the jock over the valedictorian, will not produce the best engineers.”

Perhaps what we could do is invest in education?


But, I'll bet there is also an element of hiring foreign workers because they can be paid less. I cannot discount that aspect of it, either.
 
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Red Herring

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Calling Steinmeier - a softspoken, gentle, educated fatherly figure with very little political power - an "anti-democratic tyrant" for speaking out against foreign interference in his country is ...well, weird.

So tolerating hate speech, fake news and all sorts of manipulation is free speech but saying that what Musk does is bad is anti-democratic tyranny? My six year old has more critical self-awareness.
 

Coriolis

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The reason why I dared to call all of that "culture" is because I have impression that the scale of the whole thing is much larger than in most other countries. I mean those are just some elements that came to mind to me in the moment. But there is evidently more, like "celebrity lovers". To me it is surreal that someone will watch TV show about how much money various celebrities make. In my part of the world no one cares and it is possible to meet a celebrity on the street behaving like everyone else. No hysteria, no autograms, no extra security.

Therefore when you take a look at how many of your countrymen don't belong to any of the mentioned groups the impression is that the number isn't super high. What indicates that all of this is actually a problem of culture.
The US hardly has a monopoly on celebrity lovers. Are there really so few in your country? Many of the British still follow their royalty quite closely, though this attention is no more universal than Americans' fixation with the Kardashians. We do also have plenty of celebrities who walk through daily life without much attention. It's those who love the limelight that get it, not surprisingly.

In a related observation, I suspect the vast majority of Americans do not fall within any of the subcultures you listed, with two possible exceptions. First is how broadly you define "gun nuts". Americans are more likely to own guns than citizens of other nations, but most are responsible about them and use them appropriately for hunting and sport. It is the vocal and violent minority who get the attention, not the thousands of people who safely hunt each fall. Gun violence is a significant problem the US must face, because our relatively lax laws allow that irresponsible and dangerous small minority to cause significant harm. The second is how you would define "junkies". We certainly have our share of substance abusers, and recovered abusers, but I'm not sure it is worse here than in other societies, except perhaps those with stiff (e.g. death) penalties for any drug possession.

So, I really don't think the US has more people wrapped up in these subcultures than anywhere else, though some of ours may be different. It all boils down to human nature, which transcends political and cultural boundaries. American culture may encourage certain vices, and virtues, relative to other cultures, but the desire to take the easy way out, to avoid questioning fundamental values and assumptions, and to enjoy interaction and approval from others is universal. Leaders can appeal to these qualities to bring out the best in us, or the worst.
Yes, that is all true. However the point that you have kinda missed is that Putin gave your country a kiss of death. Both through internet and through global shenanigans. Therefore since I already went through one war against the lovers of USSR and won I dare to say that I know what is needed to win this. In other words the mess you are describing evidently wouldn't do the trick. In other words the more rotten is your "house" the easier is to drive a tank through it. If anything this is simply because rotten structure can't maintain decent defensive posture.


The only thing that can really save you from the doom defined in your post is the mentality that your country had during WW2. Therefore this era has to come back or it will be impossible to hold the ground against incoming storm. Therefore this is the time for gathering, not hiding. In other words this mentality of hiding is exactly why I am rambling against "excessive individualism" lately. You can't win a game of Basketball if in your team everyone plays for himself.
I have often said that Americans need to learn the hard way. This is a good example. The U.S. saw the destruction and chaos engulfing much of the world for several years, and before that, saw evidence of the abuses of the Nazi regime in Europe. Sure, we sent some resources to the UK to support their war effort, but couldn't be bothered really to get involved until we experienced a devastating attack on our own soil. This is what I mean when I say we will have progress in the end, it's just a question of how long it will take and how many will suffer on the way.
 

Coriolis

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In his defense (and I can't believe I'm actually defending Musk and his ilk), Ramaswamy didn't say Americans were "too dumb to train". On the contrary, he explicitely stated that this was not a matter of intelligence but of culture, i.e. of anti-intellectualism and anti-science sentiments in the US (especially compared to China or India). I tend to agree with him.
I've been pointing out these unfortunate aspects of American culture for awhile. A real leader would take the difficult but necessary steps to address this at home, rather than to continue to reach for the band-aid box of foreign labor. I am not opposed to immigrants working in the US at any level of job, but would like to see our own young people taking a crack at highly-skilled, well-paid creative work as well.
On a related note: I can get behind a certain degree of anti-capitalist anger, especially in a country with not much of a social net and very little protection of workers rights. But some 83% of Americans live in cities and 46% of the working age population has a college degree so talking about the "urban elites" or "educated elites" (not her, but populists of all stripes and colors in general) tends to make the word "elite" meaningless. Eat the rich all you want but don't start by lynching the neighborhood bookseller.

Coincidentally, I just read this morning that the highest income ethnic group in Germany happens to be Indian migrants (because they tend to be here on STEM-related work visa for wellpaying jobs).

That being said, obviously Musk is not only an a****** but a serious danger to the world (he's currently trying to invest his money and influence in some good oldfashioned election interference for the far-right here in Europe)
Anti-capitalist anger is well-justified, especially in a society where the playing field is far from level, earning a profit is the rather than a by-product of providing something of value, and income inequality is significant and increasing. Until that anger can be channeled into coordinated and strategic action, however, it will result in little more than an excuse to place more burdens on those being impacted the hardest.

Perhaps what we could do is invest in education?


But, I'll bet there is also an element of hiring foreign workers because they can be paid less. I cannot discount that aspect of it, either.
Foreign workers tend to be paid less in more menial jobs. From what I have seen, there is not much cost savings in the well-paid STEM jobs, especially if the employer must also pay the costs of sponsoring the employee for a visa or eventual green card. And yes, improving American education is the answer, but it is not simply a matter of investing more money. We could do much better with the financial investment we are already making, by reordering our priorities and changing our discourse. It can certainly be debated, but I doubt a nation with a strong system of universal public education would have ever elected a charlatan like Donald Trump.
 
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Virtual ghost

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The US hardly has a monopoly on celebrity lovers. Are there really so few in your country? Many of the British still follow their royalty quite closely, though this attention is no more universal than Americans' fixation with the Kardashians. We do also have plenty of celebrities who walk through daily life without much attention. It's those who love the limelight that get it, not surprisingly.

I am sorry but to answer this entire post I will probably have to toy with your entire worldview. I just don't see how I can do it without that.


First of all I said that in this part of the world there are celebrities as well. However we never go into talk how much money they have and they can move pretty freely around the place free of hysteria. In other words I am getting impression that never anyone told you that you think about celebrities in a typical Capitalistic way. While it is possible to do celebrities on "Socialist" way. As I said a number times: I live in Europe too far to the east that my economy can be considered to be Capitalistic. Even if we take west European definition of Capitalism there is still a stretch that needs to be covered. Which is because the government is simply quite present in economy (for better or for worse). In other words my celebrities are generally government employees or at least government contractors that are somewhere in this whole mix. Your country is known for not having socialized medicine and therefore I am under impression that it doesn't have socialized entertainment as well. Free rock concerts where you can come freely (but you will have buy yourself a drink if you want one). Free move projections in state run movie theaters, after all bigger moves are all co-produced by the government. Until a few years most of the sports clubs were still government property (what was a relic from Communism), but lately they made some kind privatization. However it is evident that the government is still quite involved in many decisions.

So to put it in short this is almost surely completely different understanding of celebrity culture than the one you know. Especially since American stars rarely come this far east to perform. Especially since clear majority doesn't consume that on daily basis. After all most locals go to something local that is either much cheaper or completely free. Since we for the most part don't think that entertainment should cost out of pocket money.



In a related observation, I suspect the vast majority of Americans do not fall within any of the subcultures you listed, with two possible exceptions. First is how broadly you define "gun nuts". Americans are more likely to own guns than citizens of other nations, but most are responsible about them and use them appropriately for hunting and sport. It is the vocal and violent minority who get the attention, not the thousands of people who safely hunt each fall. Gun violence is a significant problem the US must face, because our relatively lax laws allow that irresponsible and dangerous small minority to cause significant harm. The second is how you would define "junkies". We certainly have our share of substance abusers, and recovered abusers, but I'm not sure it is worse here than in other societies, except perhaps those with stiff (e.g. death) penalties for any drug possession.

So, I really don't think the US has more people wrapped up in these subcultures than anywhere else, though some of ours may be different. It all boils down to human nature, which transcends political and cultural boundaries. American culture may encourage certain vices, and virtues, relative to other cultures, but the desire to take the easy way out, to avoid questioning fundamental values and assumptions, and to enjoy interaction and approval from others is universal. Leaders can appeal to these qualities to bring out the best in us, or the worst.

Ok, but it is your country that is kinda being prideful about the fact that there are more guns in the country than people. Therefore if you really don't like it like that you would have elected the team that would have sorted this out for good. I am not even trying to be judgy, it is simply impression that you like it like that. In these parts it is normal that you 8 year old walks itself to school everyday and in US that sounds as a really bad idea in quite a few places.



I have often said that Americans need to learn the hard way. This is a good example. The U.S. saw the destruction and chaos engulfing much of the world for several years, and before that, saw evidence of the abuses of the Nazi regime in Europe. Sure, we sent some resources to the UK to support their war effort, but couldn't be bothered really to get involved until we experienced a devastating attack on our own soil. This is what I mean when I say we will have progress in the end, it's just a question of how long it will take and how many will suffer on the way.

True, but at this point I have some serious doubts that you will wake up in time to save your sphere of influence (and thus your economy).
In the case that you didn't reelect Trump maybe I would decide to believe you, but just about everything indicates wasted years and efforts in so many areas. Since the focus will be on the internal struggle instead of the fact that your sphere of global influence is melting (and with it your economy as well). I live in what are basically outskirts of the developed world and thus I feel more and more the current that is pulling the whole thing eastward. The tech gadgets are almost completely from Asia, oil is from ex USSR country and is sold by government company, over half of our neighbors have quite pro Russian governments (some are even debating internally about referendum on NATO exist). China builds or buys plenty of infrastructure all around the place. Media generally have open eastward focus these days. They are even ignoring EU, even if they are physically in EU. Therefore someone should seriously invastigate what happened to most of the media. I watch so much international media exactly since I don't trust my own media at all anymore when it comes to big picture. Especially since some of them aren't even hidding that they are Russia friendly (and thus they often just skip the stories they don't like).

Plus as I said in the other thread my Russian friendly hardliner president just won a landslide in presidential elections (he won all of the regions). What means that pro western camp is in a state of political shock. Especially if this happens again in the spring with regional and local elections that may as well be the end of post Communist era. Since in that case the clock will go back, I mean it isn't that we moved too far from that era as you can see. The whole point of my thread about global events is how unlikely is that things will just quiet down. Therefore if things continue like this it will be reasonable that I stop posting here, since this is getting more and more risky as the time goes by. The whole central Europe is slowly moving eastward as the time is passing and there just aren't any serious plans how to stop it.


Therefore I claim: that the only thing that can save your country is WW2 style economy and super production of just about everything. Objectively speaking that is the only engine that would have enough power to get out of the current hole. Things simply need to work at 270% of normal.
 

Virtual ghost

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At this point even Lex Luthor would tell this guy to take it down a notch with the evil rich guy shtick.


As one of my local science populizers said:

At this point we all need to sit down and admit to ourselves the obvious: Elon is real life version of villains from James Bond movies.
 

Coriolis

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I am sorry but to answer this entire post I will probably have to toy with your entire worldview. I just don't see how I can do it without that.


First of all I said that in this part of the world there are celebrities as well. However we never go into talk how much money they have and they can move pretty freely around the place free of hysteria. In other words I am getting impression that never anyone told you that you think about celebrities in a typical Capitalistic way. While it is possible to do celebrities on "Socialist" way. As I said a number times: I live in Europe too far to the east that my economy can be considered to be Capitalistic. Even if we take west European definition of Capitalism there is still a stretch that needs to be covered. Which is because the government is simply quite present in economy (for better or for worse). In other words my celebrities are generally government employees or at least government contractors that are somewhere in this whole mix. Your country is known for not having socialized medicine and therefore I am under impression that it doesn't have socialized entertainment as well. Free rock concerts where you can come freely (but you will have buy yourself a drink if you want one). Free move projections in state run movie theaters, after all bigger moves are all co-produced by the government. Until a few years most of the sports clubs were still government property (what was a relic from Communism), but lately they made some kind privatization. However it is evident that the government is still quite involved in many decisions.

So to put it in short this is almost surely completely different understanding of celebrity culture than the one you know. Especially since American stars rarely come this far east to perform. Especially since clear majority doesn't consume that on daily basis. After all most locals go to something local that is either much cheaper or completely free. Since we for the most part don't think that entertainment should cost out of pocket money.
You were singling out the US. Now you are speaking of capitalist vs. socialist societies. My point was that the US is hardly unique in our view of celebrities. If we share it "only" with other capitalist nations, that is still quite a few nations.
Ok, but it is your country that is kinda being prideful about the fact that there are more guns in the country than people. Therefore if you really don't like it like that you would have elected the team that would have sorted this out for good. I am not even trying to be judgy, it is simply impression that you like it like that. In these parts it is normal that you 8 year old walks itself to school everyday and in US that sounds as a really bad idea in quite a few places.
Be careful who you identify as "you" here. If you follow U.S. news at all, you will know that most Americans support strong gun regulations, some probably approaching what exists in Europe and other nations. As we have been discussing in the various Politics threads, the strongly gerrymandered and oligarchical nature of our current government allows a non-representative minority to prevail on many important issues. Note also that: 1) it is possible to be a responsible gun owner, and 2) there are many areas of the U.S. where gun ownership makes more sense than in most of Europe. To get back to your original point, this still leaves a very small minority in what you would call the "gun subculture". All of your subcultures represented some form of inherently destructive behavior. Human nature being what it is, I doubt we have more of that than anywhere else. It just sometimes takes on different forms, and is addressed in different ways.
True, but at this point I have some serious doubts that you will wake up in time to save your sphere of influence (and thus your economy).
In the case that you didn't reelect Trump maybe I would decide to believe you, but just about everything indicates wasted years and efforts in so many areas. Since the focus will be on the internal struggle instead of the fact that your sphere of global influence is melting (and with it your economy as well). I live in what are basically outskirts of the developed world and thus I feel more and more the current that is pulling the whole thing eastward. The tech gadgets are almost completely from Asia, oil is from ex USSR country and is sold by government company, over half of our neighbors have quite pro Russian governments (some are even debating internally about referendum on NATO exist). China builds or buys plenty of infrastructure all around the place. Media generally have open eastward focus these days. They are even ignoring EU, even if they are physically in EU. Therefore someone should seriously invastigate what happened to most of the media. I watch so much international media exactly since I don't trust my own media at all anymore when it comes to big picture. Especially since some of them aren't even hidding that they are Russia friendly (and thus they often just skip the stories they don't like).

Plus as I said in the other thread my Russian friendly hardliner president just won a landslide in presidential elections (he won all of the regions). What means that pro western camp is in a state of political shock. Especially if this happens again in the spring with regional and local elections that may as well be the end of post Communist era. Since in that case the clock will go back, I mean it isn't that we moved too far from that era as you can see. The whole point of my thread about global events is how unlikely is that things will just quiet down. Therefore if things continue like this it will be reasonable that I stop posting here, since this is getting more and more risky as the time goes by. The whole central Europe is slowly moving eastward as the time is passing and there just aren't any serious plans how to stop it.


Therefore I claim: that the only thing that can save your country is WW2 style economy and super production of just about everything. Objectively speaking that is the only engine that would have enough power to get out of the current hole. Things simply need to work at 270% of normal.
U.S. leadership is good only inasmuch as it actually is good, meaning operating in the interests of peace, stability, and opportunity around the world. If we are incapable of providing that, even perhaps through a genuine need to focus our attention on internal problems, I at least have no objection to nations with more constructive perspectives taking the lead. Similarly with individual liberties, each nation has a right to choose its own government. What it doesn't have is the right to impose its will on its neighbors, which today is basically all the world.
 

Virtual ghost

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You were singling out the US. Now you are speaking of capitalist vs. socialist societies. My point was that the US is hardly unique in our view of celebrities. If we share it "only" with other capitalist nations, that is still quite a few nations.

Ok, I was simply trying to say that it is possible to make a completely different celebrity subculture. Thus the way how it is done in US is simply too "dramatic and distracting" in my book.


Be careful who you identify as "you" here. If you follow U.S. news at all, you will know that most Americans support strong gun regulations, some probably approaching what exists in Europe and other nations. As we have been discussing in the various Politics threads, the strongly gerrymandered and oligarchical nature of our current government allows a non-representative minority to prevail on many important issues. Note also that: 1) it is possible to be a responsible gun owner, and 2) there are many areas of the U.S. where gun ownership makes more sense than in most of Europe. To get back to your original point, this still leaves a very small minority in what you would call the "gun subculture". All of your subcultures represented some form of inherently destructive behavior. Human nature being what it is, I doubt we have more of that than anywhere else. It just sometimes takes on different forms, and is addressed in different ways.

I follow such news, however in my mind Trump probably wouldn't win popular vote if this was completely true. In these parts it is normal so see someone as minority and then there is shock at elections.


U.S. leadership is good only inasmuch as it actually is good, meaning operating in the interests of peace, stability, and opportunity around the world. If we are incapable of providing that, even perhaps through a genuine need to focus our attention on internal problems, I at least have no objection to nations with more constructive perspectives taking the lead. Similarly with individual liberties, each nation has a right to choose its own government. What it doesn't have is the right to impose its will on its neighbors, which today is basically all the world.

When I said that ww2 economy is the exit from current situation that kinda applies on all tradition US allies as well. The world order as it was is fundamentally challenged and there is no point in denying that. Years ago I even had a thread about allies sending engineers on government pay to US to fix vital infrastructure as quickly as possible. I don't care about cheap morality, I want sound game plan. Especially since it is evident that what we have isn't really working in the big picture. In other words if the core of your team goes critical the odds are that you will lose the whole struggle. That is the logic behind all of my words.
 

ygolo

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Just because people you find political or even morally reprehensible are making statements, doesn't mean you have to disagree with true statements they make.

Granted, the context and semiotics can be challenged, but there's no need to actively disagree with true statements they make. You can focus on the statements being disingenuous, rather than false.


Too much processed food is bad for people.

Over the long-term immigration is good for a country, especially one whose birthrate is below replacement.

There is too much waste in military spending in the USA.

Regulatory capture is real and harmful.

It is possible to grow the economic pie, and over the long-term technology does this.

Increased productivity, over the long-term is a good thing for a society.
 

Red Herring

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Just because people you find political or even morally reprehensible are making statements, doesn't mean you have to disagree with true statements they make.

Granted, the context and semiotics can be challenged, but there's no need to actively disagree with true statements they make. You can focus on the statements being disingenuous, rather than false.


Too much processed food is bad for people.

Over the long-term immigration is good for a country, especially one whose birthrate is below replacement.

There is too much waste in military spending in the USA.

Regulatory capture is real and harmful.

It is possible to grow the economic pie, and over the long-term technology does this.

Increased productivity, over the long-term is a good thing for a society.
I would agree with this and add a need to balance ecological and economic aspects. There is no denying the urgend need for climate action but that doesn't have to mean deindustrialization. In fact it can provide enormous opportunities. This required investments but will be cheaper in the long run and save lifes.

AI unchecked is already causing serious damage and will need to be controlled but it also offers vast opportunities in so many fields.
 

ygolo

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I would agree with this and add a need to balance ecological and economic aspects. There is no denying the urgend need for climate action but that doesn't have to mean deindustrialization. In fact it can provide enormous opportunities. This required investments but will be cheaper in the long run and save lifes.

AI unchecked is already causing serious damage and will need to be controlled but it also offers vast opportunities in so many fields.
Energy efficiency in compute is a major issue.

This video is US centric, but:

In terms of components of energy use, raw numbers, the ability to design better batteries and energy using systems in general with AI should be a net positive result.
 
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ygolo

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Food for thought about the way cultures have thought about time, work, labor and related concepts.

It's enlightening to realize that work and labor were very different concepts in ancient Greek culture.

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