Prometheus

[Totenkindly]

Yeah, it really looked like the engineer DNA was disintegrating, which made me slow to accept it was a seed.

I have the same problem. Lindelof has displayed that he enjoys creating mysteries first, and then MAYBE he'll try and think of an answer later. It makes for great mysteries and terrible answers, if we even get one at all. Lost did it all the time. It's lazy writing though, and is a real disincentive for me to dig deep into any mystery he creates. Why should I try and figure it out when even he hasn't?

I am not ashamed to say that I am a LOSTie. I think a few of its seasons are some of the best programming I've ever seen on TV, I was glued to the set weekly and spent much of my week thinking about what would be in the next episode... it was just that good for me. I even ended up crying pretty badly at the end of the finale, the parts that worked worked very well; the last 15 minutes at least nailed and closed up the series very well for me.

But overall I was very disappointed in the last season wrapup. There were two main fallacies: Providing unnecessary and/or poor answers to transcendent questions (such as the episode showing the origin of the Man in Black), and also claiming to be "asking questions" that in all honesty are rather banal or not really that amazing to ask. I don't think just asking, "Gee, what happens when we die?" is something that deserves criticial acclaim, for example. It's a question a five-year-old would open with. I get the same feeling when reading atheist/Christan arguments that I would consider "level 1" entry into the debate.

I didn't really see the questions get explored in Prometheus. The questions asked were the very first step on a long progession of exploration, they were rough draft questions that you scribble on the back of a cocktail napkin while out at happy hour, for later follow-up; and I just really didn't see any movement on them in this particular film.

I don't really know what type Lindelof is, but he seems like all Se/Ne (ask questions!) and for some reason that seems to substitute for actual exploration of the question.

To me it looked like the DNA first dissolved (so that his body would break apart) and then recombined to seed the planet.

Yeah, I guess I didn't see it. I don't know why, but for some reason, that did not register with me. I'm also running across a lot of people in online forums who still don't even seem to realize the alien ended up seeding earth. Weird.

 

[Qlip]

[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] Oh, FYI, I totally understand why people got into Lost. It's all about the characters and well written drama. It's just I get distracted my own pet issues.

 

[Totenkindly]

Oh. I noticed this in a decent review of Brave, and I think it kind of summarizes things from a writer's perspective for me:

The second act needs to be about Merida and her mother on some sort of a vaguely defined quest, but it’s mostly disjointed sequences - some of which are quite strong - that don’t quite add up to the proper beats needed to get to the finale. The second act beats all feel connected by ‘and thens,’ a similar problem that befell Prometheus. It’s the sign of a story that hasn’t been quite broken yet - the movie knows which beats it has to hit, it just doesn’t know how to get there. Events occur because they must occur narratively, not because they grow out of the actions of the characters.

Yeah, THAT's it. I have had the same issue in my novel writing -- I'll get ideas of the milestones I have to hit but then I struggle in stringing them together in a believable way that has the right tempo and pacing. Because they are no longer driven by character and happen naturally.

 

[Qlip]

Okay, I can't keep it to myself anymore. I'm going to rant about the puppies, those floating scanner things. There's so much wrong there. First of all, this movie predates Alien and Aliens, and there were so many situations where those scanners would've come in handy. I know, maybe the Nostromo wasn't equiped with such specialized equipment. But the guy who brought them was a damned geologist, and the Nostromo was a mining ship. You should have a few of them to deal with you know, mineral related stuff.

The second deal with those things is that they freaking float. I know that there has to be some kind of gravity field technology in the Alien universe, because the ships have gravity in space without spinning. But, if you have little anti-grav devices, they'd show up in so many more applications than just the puppies. Theyr'd be suspensor belts and anti-grav vehicles and that old dude would be floating around all of the time like the Baron Harkkonen. Sure, you can say that this anti-grav only works for very small spherical objects and has no cumulative effect which would preclude it from being useful anywhere else. But you have to freaking say that, else I get cranky.

 

[Udog]

To me it looked like the DNA first dissolved (so that his body would break apart) and then recombined to seed the planet.

In hindsight, I agree. At the time, I guess I was just expecting a meaningless type of graphical title-sequence and wasn't paying attention to potential plot points.

I think a few of its seasons are some of the best programming I've ever seen on TV, I was glued to the set weekly and spent much of my week thinking about what would be in the next episode...

Same here. There really was a golden era after the writers knew they had 3 (or was it 4?) seasons to create an arc, but before they had to start tying loose ends together. By the next to last season my mind was being blown away regularly, not realizing that the writers had no intention to cash the checks they were writing.

I didn't really see the questions get explored in Prometheus. The questions asked were the very first step on a long progession of exploration, they were rough draft questions that you scribble on the back of a cocktail napkin while out at happy hour, for later follow-up; and I just really didn't see any movement on them in this particular film.

I don't think the movie could decide how good it wanted to be. For a mindless popcorn summer movie, it's intelligent in comparison. It makes the muddled masses feel smart because it broaches deep and meaningful topics while also making them wonder if Charlize Theron was animated by the same guys that created Final Fantasy The Spirits Within. (Well, perhaps that was just me.)

It just seems like someone then decided that they'd draw the line at broaching the subject, because if they started digging any deeper they would start losing audience members. Digging into the consequences of being created by a power that doesn't care for us, and how it may affect our fundamental humanity, quickly quits being summer blockbuster territory.

I don't really know what type Lindelof is, but he seems like all Se/Ne (ask questions!) and for some reason that seems to substitute for actual exploration of the question.

He's definitely the gardener, plant-a-seed-and-see-what-grows-later type of writer. I'd almost posit some Ni in there though, because I wouldn't be surprised if he enjoys creating things where, much like the audience, he's in the dark as well. Maybe he enjoys creating a mystery that he's a part of?

 

[MacGuffin]

Okay, I can't keep it to myself anymore. I'm going to rant about the puppies, those floating scanner things. There's so much wrong there. First of all, this movie predates Alien and Aliens, and there were so many situations where those scanners would've come in handy. I know, maybe the Nostromo wasn't equiped with such specialized equipment. But the guy who brought them was a damned geologist, and the Nostromo was a mining ship. You should have a few of them to deal with you know, mineral related stuff.

The second deal with those things is that they freaking float. I know that there has to be some kind of gravity field technology in the Alien universe, because the ships have gravity in space without spinning. But, if you have little anti-grav devices, they'd show up in so many more applications than just the puppies. Theyr'd be suspensor belts and anti-grav vehicles and that old dude would be floating around all of the time like the Baron Harkkonen. Sure, you can say that this anti-grav only works for very small spherical objects and has no cumulative effect which would preclude it from being useful anywhere else. But you have to freaking say that, else I get cranky.

Nah, retcons to explain such things only draws attention to the fact special effects have advanced since the original movies and pulls you out of the film.

 

[Totenkindly]

Okay, I can't keep it to myself anymore. I'm going to rant about the puppies, those floating scanner things. There's so much wrong there. First of all, this movie predates Alien and Aliens, and there were so many situations where those scanners would've come in handy. I know, maybe the Nostromo wasn't equiped with such specialized equipment. But the guy who brought them was a damned geologist, and the Nostromo was a mining ship. You should have a few of them to deal with you know, mineral related stuff.

Well of course, but -- despite my "autistic" logic -- I chalked that one up to just a production issue that I had to accept, just as the new Abrams reboot of Star Trek looks much better than ST:TOS (which are separated by about 40 years of movie tech) or that the whole craziness with the first two terminator movies and why the T-1000 was so much more advanced than the T-101 or whatever it was, etc.

I mean, we're all different, so we're bothered by different things.

The second deal with those things is that they freaking float. I know that there has to be some kind of gravity field technology in the Alien universe, because the ships have gravity in space without spinning. But, if you have little anti-grav devices, they'd show up in so many more applications than just the puppies. Theyr'd be suspensor belts and anti-grav vehicles and that old dude would be floating around all of the time like the Baron Harkkonen. Sure, you can say that this anti-grav only works for very small spherical objects and has no cumulative effect which would preclude it from being useful anywhere else. But you have to freaking say that, else I get cranky.

Oh. DIdn't even think of that one.

I don't think the movie could decide how good it wanted to be. For a mindless popcorn summer movie, it's intelligent in comparison. It makes the muddled masses feel smart because it broaches deep and meaningful topics while also making them wonder if Charlize Theron was animated by the same guys that created Final Fantasy The Spirits Within. (Well, perhaps that was just me.)

It just seems like someone then decided that they'd draw the line at broaching the subject, because if they started digging any deeper they would start losing audience members. Digging into the consequences of being created by a power that doesn't care for us, and how it may affect our fundamental humanity, quickly quits being summer blockbuster territory.

I see where you are going with that, but how do you explain Inception then? despite some bitching by the anti-fad crowd, that was a "popcorn" movie that drew in many many people who don't consider themselves to be scifi/fantasy or spec fic fans, just average moviegoers... and people just wouldn't SHUT UP about the movie. I think it was more accessible because it was more about human ideas and less about the gadgets and tech, but then again, Prometheus looked techier but really wasn't about gadgets or tech either.

He's definitely the gardener, plant-a-seed-and-see-what-grows-later type of writer. I'd almost posit some Ni in there though, because I wouldn't be surprised if he enjoys creating things where, much like the audience, he's in the dark as well. Maybe he enjoys creating a mystery that he's a part of?

It would explain why the Ni'ers in general had a much more positive response on whole to the movie, and why more of the Ti'ers were like, "Show me the money, this is all monopoly cash that your dog has chewed on."

 

[Circle]

The "puppies" do not require anti-grav technology. They're never shown flying in vacuum, which means they could use a propulsion system like a quadrotor device.

Imagine a more advanced version of the below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQIMGV5vtd4

 

[Ivy]

Dude. That was creepy and awesome.

 

[Qlip]

I cannot see it at work. I'll assume it's one of those ion thrust things.. the tethered tin foil things that float. Still, ion thrust is soo miniscule, everything has to be ultra light and the power source has to be external. I'll check out the link later.

 

[Circle]

I cannot see it at work. I'll assume it's one of those ion thrust things.. the tethered tin foil things that float. Still, ion thrust is soo miniscule, everything has to be ultra light and the power source has to be external. I'll check out the link later.

Just tiny propellers that operate in tandem with one another.

 

[Udog]

I see where you are going with that, but how do you explain Inception then? despite some bitching by the anti-fad crowd, that was a "popcorn" movie that drew in many many people who don't consider themselves to be scifi/fantasy or spec fic fans, just average moviegoers... and people just wouldn't SHUT UP about the movie. I think it was more accessible because it was more about human ideas and less about the gadgets and tech, but then again, Prometheus looked techier but really wasn't about gadgets or tech either.

It's probably not a coincidence that Nolan is about the same age that Scott was when he created Blade Runner, Alien, etc.

Although I would say that it's the religious element, more than the sci-fi element, that would cause a problem if Prometheus dug too deeply. If Prometheus took a wrong turn they would have half of the US boycotting the movie.

 

[Totenkindly]

Although I would say that it's the religious element, more than the sci-fi element, that would cause a problem if Prometheus dug too deeply. If Prometheus took a wrong turn they would have half of the US boycotting the movie.

Well, that's a good point. I mean, I'm already sure some Christian groups probably are not happy.

 

[Udog]

Well, that's a good point. I mean, I'm already sure some Christian groups probably are not happy.

I hear that there's an extra scene at the very beginning of the movie where the Engineer comes out of a "T" shaped cryo-stasis chamber before sacrificing himself. It'll probably be on the Blu-ray, along with all the scenes where they explored the religious repercussions of the movie's concept.

 

[Totenkindly]

I hear that there's an extra scene at the very beginning of the movie where the Engineer comes out of a "T" shaped cryo-stasis chamber before sacrificing himself. It'll probably be on the Blu-ray, along with all the scenes where they explored the religious repercussions of the movie's concept.

I'm actually interested in seeing that, especially based on [MENTION=4806]violaine[/MENTION] 's comments earlier in the thread. I mean, I just really want to know what got clipped. I suspect he came out when no one else was awake and snuck out of the ship.

 

[Mal12345]

I hear that there's an extra scene at the very beginning of the movie where the Engineer comes out of a "T" shaped cryo-stasis chamber before sacrificing himself. It'll probably be on the Blu-ray, along with all the scenes where they explored the religious repercussions of the movie's concept.

There are two Engineers in this sequence, an older one standing behind. The robes they wear make the whole thing seem entirely religious. Perhaps it was too much of a giveaway.

 

[Circle]

Well, that's a good point. I mean, I'm already sure some Christian groups probably are not happy.

I feel like Christians feel so under siege about the modern world and the future that a sci-fi film that merely proposes an alien origin for Jesus would barely cause a ripple.

There is also an argument to be made that simply talking about a historical Jesus (even as an alien) reinforces the conceptual reality of Christianity. In other words, Prometheus is a reactionary vehicle for Christian precepts.

 

[Totenkindly]

I feel like Christians feel so under siege about the modern world and the future that a sci-fi film that merely proposes an alien origin for Jesus would barely cause a ripple.

I guess it depends in which circles you run in.

There is also an argument to be made that simply talking about a historical Jesus (even as an alien) reinforces the conceptual reality of Christianity. In other words, Prometheus is a reactionary vehicle for Christian precepts.

Kind of reminds me of The Matrix, in that sense, although the Christian overtones were more direct.

 

[Circle]

I guess it depends in which circles you run in.

Fear of the world actually strengthens Christianity. They thrive on the belief of a fallen world. I seem to meet Christians who regard sci-fi as pure fantasy, and as such, not a threat.

Kind of reminds me of The Matrix, in that sense, although the Christian overtones were more direct.

You could parse Prometheus as having a Gnostic dimension, much like The Matrix, although The Matrix focused on the concept of the human as a piece of the divine trapped in a false "reality". In Prometheus, you could interpret based on the Gnostic parallel of imperfect creator beings who are ambivalent about their children.

 

[Circle]

Do you remember this from the beginning?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dettifoss