Pretentious Fi

[proteanmix]

I actually had an interesting debate with Proteanmix about this recently. We were trying to figure out the exact difference, where we split ways. The usual came up, focus on group vs focus on individual, how both can seem selfish to the other, social conventions feeling restrictive vs being beneficial, who has the best use of their F to counsel, and how each function goes about it etc. So one of the questions was...how do we disable that resentment between the two and appreciate each in it's own right.

And one of the things we came up with was...

Yeah, that was a good conversation and I had a lot to think about over the last couple of days regarding this. I mostly agree with your summary, but of course I am one Fe user and others may not share my perspective.

I do want to clarify this part of the conversation a little bit more with additional thought.

Fe-users, again, from what I hear, have the ability to be flexible in their feeling-use. They vary intensity and synchronize it automatically with the person/group in front of them. This means that if they have an emo-ing Fi-user in front of them, they can match their intensity and will do so. However, they prefer emotions to be more moderate as it's better for group harmony, and gives them more of a sense of control over the situation. From what I hear, intense emotion also tires them out, even one on one and they prefer getting people to harmonize together in a group and have a warm steady flame going there (whereas I prefer a roaring fire in one person). They will therefore be more prone to pulling the plug on intense emotion and find a way to soothe it to a more moderate level. That means that the person who is emoting negative emotions will find relief as the emotion will be soothed and directed towards that warm fuzzy flame that Fe-users prefer. If that's not possible though, they'll rather find a way to 'not feel' at all, and therefore removing the (to them) harmful emotion in some way, than to stay there, effectively preferring being emotionless to feeling negative emotions, something I would never do as it a) makes me feel dead inside and b) is playing ostrich politics, imo, and pretending that the emotion won't influence you and you won't have to deal with it if you just pretend it's not there. However, I have seen it be succesful for problems that weren't deeprooted, and weren't in need of deep analysis, so I do recognize that it has its uses and has the added benefit of keeping you functional and able to deal with other potential problems that are also part of the situation. Introspection requires time, and effectively puts you into stasis for a while, which can be impractical at times as well as make you overanalyze and overcomplicate things.

I'm still not quite understanding and these are just my observations even based on descriptions from the "Fi is" thread the seeming obsession of Fi with negative emotion. I guess the converse of that can be that Fe's seeming antipathy towards negative emotion.

I'm probably going to confine further discussions of this aspect I've noticed with Fi to those who I feel can maturely discuss such things without going off the rail. I felt like your replies were honest and measured and there was a good vibe going on and I did get some understanding that I didn't have before.

But about the bolded stuff above, I feel like I should explain a bit better what I meant. Once again, this is just me.

I tend to have a focus on preventative measures rather than actual problem solving. I'm pretty vigilant towards sniffing out potential pitfalls and educating/warning people about it rather than fixing it. Increasing my problem solving skills is something I'm working on though. I notice people don't particularly like to hear things that are ominous in nature; it's often construed as negative and paranoid rather than something that could potentially happen that should be taken into consideration. So I've learned to keep those kind of thoughts and declarations to myself. I'm not an EP so I don't completely rely on extemporaneous responses, but if I think of quite a number of possible outcomes I still feel mostly prepared. I think some of this is that you're an EP yes and I'm an EJ, I'm still by nature more cautious than you are and hence my hesitations.

About intense emotion: I'm told I vibrate at a rather high frequency and I don't consider myself a particularly mellow person. I'm pretty whooshy and forceful and that has it's pros and cons. I'm not adverse to intense emotion, but I am sensitive to certain types of intensity. If someone has a dark cloud of despair hovering around them I don't go towards that. Well let me be more specific, I make distinctions between the clouds. If you have two dark and threatening looking clouds I try to figure out which one is a summer rain and which one is going to produce a destructive tornado. I don't move towards the one I think is going to kick out a tornado. I'm not a storm-chaser and I am perfectly content to let it do it's thing while I take shelter. Storm-chasers are important they give us insight about the inner workings of a dangerous phenomenon and increase our knowledge. But I still think they do a dangerous thing and need to respect the unpredictable nature of powerful negative emotion and how destructive it can be. So I think the "not feel anything at all part" isn't entirely accurate. I don't want to be disconnected either, but I take great care with the nature of the connection so as not to get a power surge and overload my personal circuits.

So yeah, I agree with Fe being a surge protector and Fi steps in when the surge happens, but both need some electricity to function. Both are rather pointless without an energy feed.

I understand some people are attracted to that and want to investigate it. I don't advocate people being in denial about their emotions, that's something I'm not for because it tends to create more problems and a bigger mess to clean up. At the same time, I feel no need deep sea dive into every emotion I have or those emotions of others. I was kind of wondering about this in connection to emotional resiliency and do you need to know every detail of your (negative) emotions in order to find worth or wisdom without going that deep into it? I think I've said this before but not everyone who wants to dive that deep or soar that high can do it even if they think they can. I find that there's got to be emotional hardiness and fitness necessary (and you mentioned learning how to "wield Fi" which is some of what I'm getting at). Strong and resilient people can be found in any type, so I'm not sure if having Fi predisposes you to that emotional hardiness or not. I don't know if any cognitive function would be more capable of thriving in adverse conditions than another...each would have it's particular strengths and weaknesses. I know with me personally, I don't go there if I don't have to, but if I have to I will. I like watching scary movies but I wouldn't want to live in a nightmare or a war zone just for the emotional highs it brings. Overdose is quite possible.

 

[Amargith]

I think we got a pretty good explanation of Fi vs Fe going here, at least of yours and mine

As for your last sentence, overdose is definitely possible, as I said, too many people at once or too much goign on at the same time, makes me lose focus and less able to deal with the intense emotion. I'm pretty sure emotional hardiness comes in all forms and shapes, from those that put it aside as irrelevant at this moment and deal with it later to those that consider emotion a byproduct that need not be considered (I'm not talking about being in denial and putting it aside out of fear now), to those that will tackle it head on.

To drag another function into this, I think there's a lot of similarities to Fi and Se on this. I've been talking to some STPs as well, and it occurs to me taht the way they feel about physical thrills, I feel about emotional thrills. They love going 200 miles an hour if they can, or do circus stunts with an F-16 if they ever got the chance. Me personally, I'll be damned if I ever even attempt that. No thanks! For me however, it's a challenge to weather through an emotional tornado, as you called it, and my goal is to stand in its eye and behold it all. My guess is that Se users feel the same way: know the danger, want to observe it in awe and still be able to channel it and be in the moment. It's freeing.

As for your question about wisdom. I find that the deeper I go, the more refined and detailed the wisdom I take away from it becomes. So yeah..to me it is worth it

 

[sculpting]

Fi is a mesh. Ti is a singularity.

Fi doesnt even understand why it would be pretentious to do what is perfectly natural to it-interpret others emotional response. It totally fucks up Fe, no doubt, but does okay with folks who use Fi. I have to use Te to shut Fi up, understanding it is incorrect. IRL, I dont use Fi with NTPs, on them, as that's just yucky. You just don't go there...

Ti is...a singularity.

 

[sculpting]

I'm still not quite understanding and these are just my observations even based on descriptions from the "Fi is" thread the seeming obsession of Fi with negative emotion. I guess the converse of that can be that Fe's seeming antipathy towards negative emotion.


I tend to have a focus on preventative measures rather than actual problem solving. I'm pretty vigilant towards sniffing out potential pitfalls and educating/warning people about it rather than fixing it. Increasing my problem solving skills is something I'm working on though. I notice people don't particularly like to hear things that are ominous in nature; it's often construed as negative and paranoid rather than something that could potentially happen that should be taken into consideration. So I've learned to keep those kind of thoughts and declarations to myself.

Check out "away from" vs "Towards pleasure" meta programs:

NLP Meta Programs, by John David Hoag

 

[InvisibleJim]

Fi isn't sharing; it's judgemental. Things are correct or incorrect; right or wrong. It's a private pact with your own mind. It's all highs and lows.

 

[Fidelia]

I'm still not quite understanding and these are just my observations even based on descriptions from the "Fi is" thread the seeming obsession of Fi with negative emotion. I guess the converse of that can be that Fe's seeming antipathy towards negative emotion...


I tend to have a focus on preventative measures rather than actual problem solving. I'm pretty vigilant towards sniffing out potential pitfalls and educating/warning people about it rather than fixing it. Increasing my problem solving skills is something I'm working on though. I notice people don't particularly like to hear things that are ominous in nature; it's often construed as negative and paranoid rather than something that could potentially happen that should be taken into consideration. So I've learned to keep those kind of thoughts and declarations to myself. I'm not an EP so I don't completely rely on extemporaneous responses, but if I think of quite a number of possible outcomes I still feel mostly prepared. I think some of this is that you're an EP yes and I'm an EJ, I'm still by nature more cautious than you are and hence my hesitations.

This is what I've been hoping to have happen in a discussion!!! Thanks both of you for your thoughts!

I have found it interesting to see in the Fi is thread how many people really identify with the artwork presented, which I find I don't relate to at all. A lot of it is dark and unhappy looking. As a Fe user, I don't believe I am of negative feelings. In fact, even though I am a positive person, I think I am actually rather realistic/melancholic and don't live in a world of rainbows. I am probably more drawn to the book that is life-ishly sad (though not hopeless) than the one that makes me laugh. However, I don't understand the deep sea diving into negative emotion. I guess Amargith has answered it by saying there is an Fi emotional equivalent of the Se physical thrill, and also that anything is better than not feeling intensely. That makes some sense to me and explains a lot.

The second paragraph quoted above, I very much identify with. Most of my writing stems out of the deep pain I have experienced at seeing the potential and happiness of people close to me needlessly wasted. I want to serve as a kind of lighthouse to try to keep others away from the rocks that some of the ones I love have crashed on.

My ENFJ mother has also always been the kind of person who is looking down the road, more outspoken than me, but compelled even against her better judgement to warn people of danger or pain that is ahead if they don't alter their course. This isn't something that either of us want to do. It comes with great personal cost. Even in the old days, prophets got stoned! People don't want to hear about it and deem you as negative, paranoid or critical, and then after the fact wish they had done things differently. Trying to warn people is not done out of a sense of wanting to control people, but rather out of a belief that prevention is better than reparation. Because of Fe, I believe that every decision an individual makes affects the people close to them. Therefore if they decide to go straight for the rocks, they take down others with them at the same time, many of whom drown or are hurt. While choices may be made by individuals, they do not affect only that individual. The stakes are so much higher than just wanting everyone to feel nice towards each other or be polite. Protean is absolutely right that Fe is geared towards prevention.

I am realizing that many neither see prevention desireable or useful. They truly believe there is a need for us all to walk through everything that lies ahead rather than going around it. Obviously, since both functions have been distributed throughout the population there must be merit in both ways of seeing life, although ideally there would be a tempering of both views. All pain cannot be avoided, yet on the other hand, not all pain is necessary either. There needs to be a balance struck between the two. I'm wondering Amargith, if you would be able to explain the positive aspects of that more for me, because I think you have thought about it and can give me a better explanation than I can come up with by conjecture.

I just reread Protean's post and realized that she also articulated something important. The main reason I see for not denying emotions is that it actually creates much more serious problems when you do. Again, it has to do with prevention, rather than with revelling or experiencing the emotion itself.

One of the ideas from the Fe is thread that I think is worth reiterating is something Protean also talked about. That is the idea that Fe uses interactions with the group to learn about itself. I find that is one of the most satisfying and enlighting reasons for interaction. When I first had roommates, we all came with basic assumptions of what was normal (how to do the dishes, how to interact, how to handle conflict etc). It was only through seeing our similarities and differences that we had something to gauge our own perceptions by and also that we even realized what aspects that never showed up within our growing up homogenous family culture could be abrasive or different from each other. I experienced the same thing when I went to live in the States. I only realized what made my country distinct when I stepped out of my familiar environment where those things did not stand out in the landscape.

I would take it a step farther and hypothesize that Fi focusses on self to learn about other people.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

The second paragraph quoted above, I very much identify with. Most of my writing stems out of the deep pain I have experienced at seeing the potential and happiness of people close to me needlessly wasted. I want to serve as a kind of lighthouse to try to keep others away from the rocks that some of the ones I love have crashed on.

My ENFJ mother has also always been the kind of person who is looking down the road, more outspoken than me, but compelled even against her better judgement to warn people of danger or pain that is ahead if they don't alter their course. This isn't something that either of us want to do. It comes with great personal cost. Even in the old days, prophets got stoned! People don't want to hear about it and deem you as negative, paranoid or critical, and then come back after the fact and wish they had done things differently. It is not done out of a sense of wanting to control people, but rather out of a belief that prevention is better than repairation. Because of Fe, I believe that every decision an individual makes affects the people close to them. Therefore if they decide to go straight for the rocks, they take down others with them at the same time, many of whom drown or are hurt. While choices may be made by individuals, they do not affect only that individual. The stakes are so much higher than just wanting everyone to feel nice towards each other or be polite. Protean is absolutely right that Fe is geared towards prevention.

I find the amargith/protean convo very enlightening as well. I think I have a fairly good handle of Fi because I've had a few INFP friends over the years.

But I don't really feel like that about Fe. I don't think I use Fe like you mentioned. I don't feel compelled to use Fe to educate someone from going down a certain path to prevent them from something, even if I can see will likely happen. I use Fe more to relate in the moment with people, or to help people if they come to me with a problem. I'm not so........far-reaching? with my Fe. I'm definitely picky about who I give my Fe energy to. (Or I will use Fe to organize a potluck once or twice a year to bring the neighborhood together, but I suck at mingling).

Why the difference in Fe use you think? I'm curious about the Fe differences.

 

[Fidelia]

Do you think it has to do with function order? On some tests my Fe comes out as the first function, even though I'm quite sure I'm INFJ.

For me, a potluck would be at the bottom of my list unless there was a specific person I was doing it for. However, if someone suggested it I'd be fine with doing it. I don't know if I really use Fe when people come to me with a problem, although I might. How does that look when you do it? Some people would suggest that Enneagram differences might be responsible for different responses. I'm not sure how much I subscribe to enneagram, but I do know that the INFJs I know are all quite different.

 

[Amargith]

Fidelia, are you talking about the positive aspects of the balancing out of the two functions, or are you talking about the positive emotions?


Coz I do wanna emphasize that although I might've put more stress on diving in the sea of negative emotions, the very same and more even is true for the positive side. It's just not as controversial. People understand why you dive into that.

I've however found that the lines between bliss and torture blurr if you keep going long enough. I discovered so not by choice, but by accident. I learned that there is such a thing as an overdose of good emotions, and that it's both agonizing and painful as well as utter sheer bliss. And it is dangerously addictive and downright scary for most people as well as harmful if sustained. That's another thing. All of these emotions at its most intense are definitely harmful if sustained. Just ask people who are infatuated and unable to move the infatuation on to the next level. It's just utter, cruel torture. Yet soooo good.

Same goes the opposite way. At some point you start relishing the negative emotions, they can become just as powerful and addictive as blissful ones, to the point where you no longer know if you actually love them or hate them. You start seeing their beauty, their power, their sheer rawness and get mesmerized by it.

BD/SM anyone?

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Do you think it has to do with function order? On some tests my Fe comes out as the first function, even though I'm quite sure I'm INFJ.

For me, a potluck would be at the bottom of my list unless there was a specific person I was doing it for. However, if someone suggested it I'd be fine with doing it. I don't know if I really use Fe when people come to me with a problem, although I might. How does that look when you do it? Some people would suggest that Enneagram differences might be responsible for different responses. I'm not sure how much I subscribe to enneagram, but I do know that the INFJs I know are all quite different.

Yeah, I'm the same way about the enneagram. It just doesn't seem to work for me. I can be a 2 or 4 depending on the test. And the descriptions are dubious, imo, so that's not much help either.

Actually, since you brought it up, it struck me as the way you were referring to Fe was more as a primary function. But I don't know too many infjs irl. The ones I know seem to stick more to themselves and shrug regarding others' mistakes; not surprised, yet not very inclined to get too involved on a grand scale. Perhaps Fe doms are different. I really know even less of those. I'm very curious about Fe doms because I've questionned if I'm more Fe dom myself, but I really don't think I am that extraverted regarding people. For me, it's more a very few close people I care about, versus the masses, unless I'm thinking a collective thought about the masses, like how we 'as a society' are, for example.

I identify a lot with the esfj desription as well, which is Fe dom. I am very people-oriented, but on a small scale, not large one. And I'm pretty much an outside-the-box thinker, whereas esfjs like to follow more of a societal expectation.

I'd like to hear more from the Fe doms regarding this exact facet of Fe.

I see this thread is supposed to only be about Fi! So, I'm sorry to the op for getting off track onto Fe, but I was just happily following the tangent.

 

[Poki]

To drag another function into this, I think there's a lot of similarities to Fi and Se on this. I've been talking to some STPs as well, and it occurs to me taht the way they feel about physical thrills, I feel about emotional thrills. They love going 200 miles an hour if they can, or do circus stunts with an F-16 if they ever got the chance. Me personally, I'll be damned if I ever even attempt that. No thanks! For me however, it's a challenge to weather through an emotional tornado, as you called it, and my goal is to stand in its eye and behold it all. My guess is that Se users feel the same way: know the danger, want to observe it in awe and still be able to channel it and be in the moment. It's freeing.

As for your question about wisdom. I find that the deeper I go, the more refined and detailed the wisdom I take away from it becomes. So yeah..to me it is worth it

Since you drug us into it. Its freeing to be able to be in control of the uncontrollable in regards to physical. I dont feed off the adrenaline, thats when I pushed to far to fast and lost that control. I keep it right under adrenaline and I become better and better and push the bar beyond what most would call stupid. I know when to pull back and when to push physically. In the physical realm you just have to let go and let me take over. I will make it worth it.

This weekend I had a blast slipping and sliding on the ice. My INFP aunt thought I was completely out of control on the ice, but the second I was done I simply stood up and tried something else. When you see someone on ice with arms flayling in the air, feet going 90MPH, then just stop and stand like he was somehow in control the entire time you just found an ISTP.

I lack the fear in the same way an INFP lacks the fear from Fi. I use it when I take my sons hand on the ice and make sure he doesnt fall. I also use it to chip away a little 3 inch square in the ice and fling my son around and let him slip and slide with out fear of falling. I take this in the same direction playing with my son like a doll, flipping him over my shoulders, around my back, lifting him up in the air with one hand and dropping him to catch him. He has complete trust in me. This pretty much extends to everything in the physical world.

I do get in trouble as others tend to follow me and get themselves hurt.

 

[Fidelia]

What I'm wondering Amargith, is what are the advantages you see in being in the middle of the tornado. I guess I'm struggling with understanding what Fi people who are not as prevention oriented get out of the experience of going through everything themselves in larger than life intensity when it is not needful. I can see not avoiding something that must be faced, but I don't see facing something negative that doesn't have to be. Most Fi people I see feel strongly that everyone has their own unique experience and has to find their own way. They feel that signposts along the way are not useful because everyone is on quite a different road than the next person. I don't know if I'm misinterpreting it, or if that makes any sense.

Aphrodite - I think probably Fe is higher on my list for a couple of reasons. One is growing up with someone as a major influence, who has a very strong sense of Fe. Another is both church environment and extended family environment that would encourage those tendancies and be seen as a positive thing to be cultivated. The third is working in a school environment where Fe is often called on to smooth things over/get people to work together and where many of the teachers are likely to be ESFJ types. For those reasons, I think I've had much more exposure to that than to Fi and therefore it has taken the forefront.

However, I think (if I'm understanding it correctly) I do have some Fi. I certainly feel that one must be true to their own values and sense of right and wrong. I do think that you need to carve out room for yourself as an individual or else you will lose your identity in the group. I think that there is a place to decide how much the needs, demands and emotions of others can or should place in your priorities and at the very least to assess whether it is appropriate to put their wishes over your own needs.

Regarding looking down the road, I think I only invest in specific people as far as risking myself to try to help them. I would not bother getting into conflict, if I didn't feel that our relationship required and warranted it. I also tend to assess the likelihood of success and weigh whether I can effect enough change to warrant the fallout. I think this is why I am much more cautious than my mother about how openly I'd speak my mind to those close to me, and about speaking at all in a more general sense if I didn't feel I would be successful. I tend to underestimate my ability to influence, while in some cases, she would be better to wait and pick her battles instead of speaking right away, as it will be badly received (even if what she has to say is correct and needful). Where I would get more generalized in my wish to help is if I had the opportunity to communicate the message in writing or in a speaking situation where it was impersonal enough that people could reject the message if they like, but don't as upset because they don't know me. The purpose of bothering to communicate the message at all is because if it did strike a chord, I believe I could save them some needless pain and that would in turn have a ripple effect to those close to them.

 

[Amargith]

What I'm wondering Amargith, is what are the advantages you see in being in the middle of the tornado. I guess I'm struggling with understanding what Fi people who are not as prevention oriented get out of the experience of going through everything themselves in larger than life intensity when it is not needful. I can see not avoiding something that must be faced, but I don't see facing something negative that doesn't have to be. Most Fi people I see feel strongly that everyone has their own unique experience and has to find their own way. They feel that signposts along the way are not useful because everyone is on quite a different road than the next person. I don't know if I'm misinterpreting it, or if that makes any sense.

The benefit is seeing the inside and knowing what it's made up of. Understanding it. Next time you come across a similar tornado, you'll know how to handle it and can take a passenger to share the experience with. Also, often you'll find a treasure inside. A pearl of wisdom. A greater understanding. On top of that, it's a thrill to stand in the eye and not get harmed while getting the rush of being there. Also realize that often, I don't have a choice, or so it feels. I'm drawn to intense emotion, so I automatically find myself in its way. Or, if it hits me unexpectedly, there's no running from it, coz I'll be running from it forever. It's like running from yourself. This could have something to do with the fact that Fe actually navigates the outside world, which allows for prevention and avoidance of these situations, whereas Fi doesn't realize it's in that storm till it's too late. It would stand to reason then that you guys get good at prevention and I would know how to ride the wave after enough experiences.

 

[Seymour]

Since you drug us into it. Its freeing to be able to be in control of the uncontrollable in regards to physical. I dont feed off the adrenaline, thats when I pushed to far to fast and lost that control. I keep it right under adrenaline and I become better and better and push the bar beyond what most would call stupid. I know when to pull back and when to push physically. In the physical realm you just have to let go and let me take over. I will make it worth it.

This weekend I had a blast slipping and sliding on the ice. My INFP aunt thought I was completely out of control on the ice, but the second I was done I simply stood up and tried something else. When you see someone on ice with arms flayling in the air, feet going 90MPH, then just stop and stand like he was somehow in control the entire time you just found an ISTP.

I lack the fear in the same way an INFP lacks the fear from Fi. I use it when I take my sons hand on the ice and make sure he doesnt fall. I also use it to chip away a little 3 inch square in the ice and fling my son around and let him slip and slide with out fear of falling. I take this in the same direction playing with my son like a doll, flipping him over my shoulders, around my back, lifting him up in the air with one hand and dropping him to catch him. He has complete trust in me. This pretty much extends to everything in the physical world.

I do get in trouble as others tend to follow me and get themselves hurt.

I think that STP brinksmanship and pushing everything to the limit is a way of exploring the limits of their Ti. How quickly can in-the-moment adjustments and optimizations be made? How fast can one react to subtle changes of input from Se and make the precise response needed? Is there a limit to honing and expressing those skill?

I suspect that some younger xSTPs find their limits the hard way.

I also suspect the same is true for some NFPs, too. However, instead of physical brinksmanship, we court emotional engulfment, instead. How deeply can one feel? What is the precise quality of this or that emotion? Are their limits to how far one can go into experiencing it and still remain in control? How deeply can one go into melancholy, and still transform it into a lonely kind of joy?

I think (at least some) NFPs don't tend to go after the same intensity as we get older. We've found some of our emotional limits and know some aspects of our emotions pretty well. This generally seems to be true of the NFPs I know who are over 35.

It may also be a result of Fi not necessarily being our growing edge at this point in life; one tends to develop one's less favored functions a bit as one gets older. Or maybe it's just the energy required for that kind of plumbing of the emotional depths is being spent elsewhere.

Anyway, not sure of any of this, but did like the parallel introduced between Ti and Fi earlier in the thread.

 

[Fidelia]

Thanks Amargith, that makes more sense than it did.

 

[onemoretime]

It seems to me that what Fe users are looking for is an admission or understanding of some sorts of how damaging the effects of Fi can be upon others, when it seems like Fi users simply don't care what those effects are.

 

[Amargith]

When we're still learning how to handle Fi, we can hurt others. But that's true for *every* other function out there. Immature Se can encourage people to do stupid things that can get them physically hurt. Immature Fe can damage someone's spirit by guilttripping and manipulating them all over the place just because they are different and you disagree with that. Immature Te will trample everyone in their way. Immature Ti will call everyone else a moron and damage their self-confidence if possible. And immature Si can resist change to the detriment of everyone around when that change is the only thing that can help out. Immature Ne will always be trying out new ideas instead of relying on what we've learned, just to see what it will give, without really going about it responsibly and immature Ni will be pedantic to others and believe it's own delusions.

On the other hand, we have to be aware that everyone is learning. And it's not easy. And nobody is perfect. It's something that requires time and practice to get right, regardless of what function we're talking about. So some leniency towards one another is definitely warranted, especially when you keep in mind you'd be a hypocrite to expect from others what you yourself don't live up to or did not always live up to. Cut people some slack. In the end, the only person you can be holding up to your own standards is yourself, adn the only person you need to take care of is yourself. Don't blame others for their flaws when your own flaw is that you cannot work around that without it harming you in some way. At the same time, strive to not affect others in an immature way at all times and encourage others to do the same.

 

[sculpting]

It seems to me that what Fe users are looking for is an admission or understanding of some sorts of how damaging the effects of Fi can be upon others, when it seems like Fi users simply don't care what those effects are.

Call out some specific examples. I dont think we perceive the damage you cite. Fi is pain averse-if we were aware we were damaging the other, we would care as it would make us feel bad. Not the annoying stuff-I know we are fucking hell annoying at times. But can you cite how this ends up damaging others?

I once told proteo this-For me-Fi takes a massive amount of energy to use. Thus I think subconsciously my brain reserves it for things which will generate a very strong ROI. Baking cookies for the lady at church-nope. Saving fifteen folks jobs-yes.

Does Fi damage via neglect or damage via intrusion?

 

[PeaceBaby]

I too would enjoy some examples.

Personally I don't see how anyone can pinpoint which function is responsible for any particular behaviour in isolation.

And the idea of doing so is patently ridiculous.

It seems to me that what Fe users are looking for is an admission or understanding of some sorts of how damaging the effects of Fi can be upon others, when it seems like Fi users simply don't care what those effects are.

Fi users don't care? If Fi has a value that the feelings of others matter, than of course one would care about said effects.

 

[BlueScreen]

It seems to me that what Fe users are looking for is an admission or understanding of some sorts of how damaging the effects of Fi can be upon others, when it seems like Fi users simply don't care what those effects are.

I know! I knew an ENTP once who made me feel bad. I want an official apology for all ENTP functions.