Pretentious Fi

[Nescio]

now why did you have to go and beat me to it?

 

[Stanton Moore]

It's the double standard that pisses us off. We're supposed to accept their provoking, their probing, their analyzing of us (as if they know us better than ourselves), but we get written off as pretentious know-it-alls when we do the same because then we are supposedly making assumptions about people's emotions.

Yep. What is is Ti to do?:steam: It goes back to the 'inherent fact' that feeler=whiny little girl and thinker=big strong man. Very stereotypical.
I'll tell you what Fi is good for: Making judgments about aesthetics, and understanding the plot of Deadwood.

 

[Poki]

I think Ti and Fi can go deeper in understanding. From my experience it seems like Fe and Te are more hard pressed in what they believe and act before getting a more in depth explanation.

My wife will jump on my words and be insistant on how I feel which is Fe and she misses my tone and context. An ISTJ I met had his mind made up about a reason I did something and then tried to steer a conversation to dig, but he dug in the areas that I wasnt good at and took that as me lying. The ENFP on the other hand dug in deeper and tried different routes to get to the truth, but her tertiary Te to me still felt like she was doubtful.

 

[Seymour]

I can't think of times when I, personally, have insisted that some was feeling a certain way. I've certainly asked if someone was feeling a particular way, but if they say otherwise I take them at face value. I'm happy to answer them if they ask why it was I thought they were angry/happy/sad/whatever. Intuition only works on available input and it's definitely fallible.

Occasionally I have friends circle back around and say, "I WAS upset, but I didn't realize it at the time" or "I was feeling down, but I didn't feel like talking about it." I'm fine with that, too. We all process our emotions in different ways. One of my best friends (INFJ) often doesn't know his emotional state in realtime (although he's very aware of the group dynamic). My ESTJ dad isn't very emotionally aware in the moment, either, but he does work through things eventually. As an INFP I find unawareness of one's own emotional state foreign, but I understand that the way I view the world is not typical.

You might want to ask your friend what behaviors or cues are leading your friend to believe you are feeling a certain way. It might be a simple matter of mis-interpretation. For example, it's easy for NFs to interpret NT argumentativeness (okay, "conversational/debate style") as aggression or anger. Partially that's because some NFs might have to be very angry or upset to argue so vehemently and discount another's viewpoint so directly.

Just a thought.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I'll tell you what Fi is good for: Making judgements about aesthetics, and understanding the plot of Deadwood.

Thanks. I will remember to keep my Fi in its place

For example, it's easy for NFs to interpret NT argumentativeness (okay, "conversational/debate style") as aggression or anger. Partially that's because some NFs might have to be very angry or upset to argue so vehemently and discount another's viewpoint so directly.

This is a good point. I discussed this in some long drawn out thread with simulatedworld some time ago. NTs in particular fail to realize how certain behavior is culturally seen. Tone of voice, facial expression, word choices, and body language can lead people to think you are feeling a certain way, even if you are not. I understand this, because as an INFP, I get misunderstood a lot (quiet = aloof and sullen to people). At a certain point though, you can't blame other people for misunderstanding you - you have to learn to communicate better and be aware of how you come across.

 

[Stanton Moore]

Thanks. I will remember to keep my Fi in its place



This is a good point. I discussed this in some long drawn out thread with simulatedworld some time ago. NTs in particular fail to realize how certain behavior is culturally seen. Tone of voice, facial expression, word choices, and body language can lead people to think you are feeling a certain way, even if you are not. I understand this, because as an INFP, I get misunderstood a lot (quiet = aloof and sullen to people). At a certain point though, you can't blame other people for misunderstanding you - you have to learn to communicate better and be aware of how you come across.

Thanks! You said what I would have said if I weren't so dim...
So the bottom line is: empathy? I think so.

 

[teslashock]

I don't see how this is an NFP trait, and I explained that what you assume is not the case, or at least with myself and many other NFPs. I think YOU are the one trying to tell us what we feel and how we think now.

Lol this is what I am kind of referring to with Fi When did I try to tell you how you feel? I think my OP and my responses are trying to give the most open-minded undertone possible. I phrase everything in terms of a speculation rather than a claim.

I'm not telling you how you feel. I'm speculating. Please don't start with the Fi victimization this early on in the thread.

 

[Poki]

Lol this is what I am kind of referring to with Fi When did I try to tell you how you feel? I think my OP and my responses are trying to give the most open-minded undertone possible. I phrase everything in terms of a speculation rather than a claim.

I'm not telling you how you feel. I'm speculating. Please don't start with the Fi victimization this early on in the thread.

your hole undertone is an accusation ended with a ? which says, prove me wrong, which means defend yourself. You arent telling them how they feel, but how they are and saying prove me wrong.

 

[teslashock]

It's the double standard that pisses us off. We're supposed to accept their provoking, their probing, their analyzing of us (as if they know us better than ourselves), but we get written off as pretentious know-it-alls when we do the same because then we are supposedly making assumptions about people's emotions.

Did I not already say that Ti does the same thing as Fi just in a different way? Did I not already claim that perhaps both Ti and Fi need to Ni to take a step back and unbiasedly analyze their own preferences? Quit bitching about a double standard just to hear yourself complain, and stick to the topic at hand. This thread is not supposed to be a competition between Ti and Fi, and it's hard for me to take you seriously when you get so emotionally invested in the topic.

Yep. What is is Ti to do?:steam: It goes back to the 'inherent fact' that feeler=whiny little girl and thinker=big strong man. Very stereotypical.

Ti doesn't do this at all. At least not my Ti but maybe that's because it's auxiliary in me. And how can you implicitly complain about stereotypes when you just made a completely unjustified and oversimplified one yourself?

 

[teslashock]

your hole undertone is an accusation ended with a ? which says, prove me wrong, which means defend yourself. You arent telling them how they feel, but how they are and saying prove me wrong.

I'm not telling them how they are. I'm telling them how I perceive them, and I am asking anyone (not just Fi users) to analyze my perceptions.

I don't think I made any personal attacks on any invidual Fi users or any cruel generalizations about Fi itself. I don't see why anybody should be taking anything personally at this point. I'm fine with people arguing with my claims and defending Fi for its good qualities, but it'd be nice if the defense didn't come purely in the form of an attack on Ti and/or unjustified interpretations of the claims I'm making.

 

[teslashock]

You might want to ask your friend what behaviors or cues are leading your friend to believe you are feeling a certain way. It might be a simple matter of mis-interpretation. For example, it's easy for NFs to interpret NT argumentativeness (okay, "conversational/debate style") as aggression or anger. Partially that's because some NFs might have to be very angry or upset to argue so vehemently and discount another's viewpoint so directly.

Just a thought.

I think this is spot-on in regards to the NF/NT dynamic (at least NTP/NFP). NTs get argumentative, and NFs subconsciously associate argument with hostility while NTs associate argument with fun analysis. NFPs tend to take arguments personally while NTPs just see them as a game. I guess both parties involved just need to understand this so as to tone things down a bit and not offend each other.

I just wish that the NFPs I know didn't take shit so personally though when we get in heated discussions, especially after I tell them that I myself treat most arguments completely impersonally. But I'm sure most NFPs wish that I wouldn't get so caught up in trying to prove a point because oftentimes the argument isn't worth the social discord that it brings. It's just two perspectives that don't mesh well at all. Not sure how to deal with it though.

 

[onemoretime]

I'm not telling them how they are. I'm telling them how I perceive them, and I am asking anyone (not just Fi users) to analyze my perceptions.

I don't think I made any personal attacks on any invidual Fi users or any cruel generalizations about Fi itself. I don't see why anybody should be taking anything personally at this point. I'm fine with people arguing with my claims and defending Fi for its good qualities, but it'd be nice if the defense didn't come purely in the form of an attack on Ti and/or unjustified interpretations of the claims I'm making.

This thread was doomed from the start. You should have known better.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Lol this is what I am kind of referring to with Fi When did I try to tell you how you feel? I think my OP and my responses are trying to give the most open-minded undertone possible. I phrase everything in terms of a speculation rather than a claim.

I'm not telling you how you feel. I'm speculating. Please don't start with the Fi victimization this early on in the thread.

You mean continuing the victim tone you started with your OP?
So for you it is speculating, but for an NFP, it is pretentious and assuming?
The double standard has to be addressed, because it is at the core of the misunderstanding.

Did I not already say that Ti does the same thing as Fi just in a different way? Did I not already claim that perhaps both Ti and Fi need to Ni to take a step back and unbiasedly analyze their own preferences? Quit bitching about a double standard just to hear yourself complain, and stick to the topic at hand. This thread is not supposed to be a competition between Ti and Fi, and it's hard for me to take you seriously when you get so emotionally invested in the topic.

Funny, I recall YOU starting this thread, which is essentially just bitching about NFPs (Why do ENTPs love to do that? Maybe it's time to take a step back and analyze your motivation for these discussions). The topic at hand is whether NFPs have certain behavior across the board, and that has been addressed. You seem like you just don't want to accept that you are wrong in your theory. What do you expect? NFPs to come in here and say, "Yes, I am pretentious and never know what I am talking about. Thanks for pointing it out to me!".

I like how here you assume NFPs are emotionally invested in everything they debate also...It's hard for me to take you seriously when you keep doing what you accuse others of doing.

I think this topic has been dragged out to death before. It's clear that people like you want to think of NFPs a certain way, and nothing said will convince you otherwise.

 

[BlackCat]

I wanted to understand the pretentiousness too... I guess it will never happen because all of these threads end up with some NFP going at the OP's throat over something that isn't the thread topic. Mostly Ti vs Fi and "BUT YOUR TONE OF VOICE IS BAD!" etc. It's totally dumb. Most of the people I've seen (not directed at you in particular OrangeAppled) totally ignore what the ENTP is actually asking and just makes it personal. I'll never understand for the life of me why NFs can't use some empathy that they are famous for and understand the the ENTP doesn't mean anything bad.

Even when I ask the NFPs who have been pretentious to me about why they thought I was feeling that way, and then I tell them that they were wrong and how I was feeling, they still are convinced and stick to their Fi. It's extremely annoying, irrational, and inconsiderate.

My INFP ex would NOT for the life of her listen to any reason, and she was being highly pretentious. She thought she had my motivations and figured out, and projected onto me during the breakup constantly. She thought I had some sort of ulterior motive... lol. I told her that she was wrong, but she just wouldn't listen at all... even though they are MY feelings.

It's almost as though they are confident in them as though they are their own feelings.

 

[Orangey]

You know who does this the most out of anyone I know? My ESFP sister. The INFPs and INFJs I know are not in the habit of outright "telling" people anything, because it would be like a form of imposition (and not something I would imagine they would be comfortable with...ever.) Seriously, they MAY quietly assume some things (and even then, *maybe*), but they won't go blab about it, especially to that person.

In fact, the whole premise of this thread doesn't make too much sense. It is well known that INFPs do not like conflict in general (and sometimes to a pathological degree.) And if the INFPs think they know what the person is feeling better than they do, then they would know that simply telling the person how they really feel would lead to conflict. Why, then, would INFx people do something that could so obviously lead to conflict?

 

[Seymour]

I think this is spot-on in regards to the NF/NT dynamic (at least NTP/NFP). NTs get argumentative, and NFs subconsciously associate argument with hostility while NTs associate argument with fun analysis. NFPs tend to take arguments personally while NTPs just see them as a game. I guess both parties involved just need to understand this so as to tone things down a bit and not offend each other.

I just wish that the NFPs I know didn't take shit so personally though when we get in heated discussions, especially after I tell them that I myself treat most arguments completely impersonally. But I'm sure most NFPs wish that I wouldn't get so caught up in trying to prove a point because oftentimes the argument isn't worth the social discord that it brings. It's just two perspectives that don't mesh well at all. Not sure how to deal with it though.

Okay, this I can totally believe. I work as a programmer with a number of NTs, and I do have to make an internal adjustment when arguing with NTs. They say thing that I would never, ever say unless I were extremely angry and going for the throat. I also know they will play devil's advocate just for fun. It took me a while to be able to NOT be offended, but now I can see it as a sometimes fun, often tedious kind of game.

And I do like working with NTs, because they will carry out those unpleasant critiques, which is a good part of the process. They may not be aware of the effect they have on group cohesion and individual motivation, though. We all have our strengths and weaknesses.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I wanted to understand the pretentiousness too... I guess it will never happen because all of these threads end up with some NFP going at the OP's throat over something that isn't the thread topic. Mostly Ti vs Fi and "BUT YOUR TONE OF VOICE IS BAD!" etc. It's totally dumb. Most of the people I've seen (not just you OrangeAppled) totally ignore what the ENTP is actually asking and just makes it personal. I'll never understand for the life of me why NFs can't use some empathy that they are famous for and understand the the ENTP doesn't mean anything bad.

I have answered it directly in my first post, and so have many other NFPs in here. Just because you do not like the answer and it does not support the OP's speculation does not mean it is not true. It seems that unless NFPs say "yes, you are right and have us figured out completely", then you will not be happy with the answer.

Maybe the bottom line is that NFPs do not do this as much as you think, or even at all. Maybe you mistype people, maybe this is an individual quirk issue & not an NFP one, maybe you misunderstand what NFPs are saying, etc. Bottom line is, I am not going to admit to something I do not do, and I cannot explain behavior that I do not have, and I resent someone telling me how my mind works when it does not work that way.

Even when I ask the NFPs who have been pretentious to me about why they thought I was feeling that way, and then I tell them that they were wrong and how I was feeling, they still are convinced and stick to their Fi. It's extremely annoying, irrational, and inconsiderate.

My INFP ex would NOT for the life of her listen to any reason, and she was being highly pretentious. She thought she had my motivations and figured out, and projected onto me during the breakup constantly. She thought I had some sort of ulterior motive... lol. I told her that she was wrong, but she just wouldn't listen at all... even though they are MY feelings.

It's almost as though they are confident in them as though they are their own feelings.

I can't relate to that in the slightest. I have never insisted someone feels a way they say they do not feel. That's completely foreign to me.

 

[BlackCat]

I can't relate to that in the slightest. I have never insisted someone feels a way they say they do not feel. That's completely foreign to me.

Well maybe you can't provide the information that we are seeking, since you aren't like that. I've experienced this with all NFs. I have also experienced NFs that don't do this. We are seeking to understand the NFs that DO in fact do this. So if you don't... chill out. lol It's not directed at you at all if you don't do it.

 

[teslashock]

You mean continuing the victim tone you started with your OP?

Where did I victimize myself in the OP? Please, show me where you see this so-called tone.

The double standard has to be addressed, because it is at the core of the misunderstanding.

The double standard is an illusion that you've created in your own head. Quit. I even repped you and said that your Fi seems nice after your first response. What happened?

Funny, I recall YOU starting this thread, which is essentially just bitching about NFPs (Why do ENTPs love to do that? Maybe it's time to take a step back and analyze your motivation for these discussions).

I'm not bitching about NFPs. I put my perception on the table to be critiqued. When did I bitch about NFPs?

The topic at hand is whether NFPs have certain behavior across the board, and that has been addressed. You seem like you just don't want to accept that you are wrong in your theory. What do you expect? NFPs to come in here and say, "Yes, I am pretentious and never know what I am talking about. Thanks for pointing it out to me!".

I want ANYBODY (not just NFPs!) to critique my perception. To agree or disagree. To offer any insight they have. That's it.

I don't feel like I've been proven "right" or "wrong" either way. I'd love to hear a convincing argument that goes against my previous notions regarding Fi, and I'd have no qualms with accepting the fact that my perceptions do not hold ground in a broader reality. It hasn't happened yet though.

I like how here you assume NFPs are emotionally invested in everything they debate also...It's hard for me to take you seriously when you keep doing what you accuse others of doing.

Look at the bolded statements above. That's the kind of shit I'm talking about.

I think this topic has been dragged out to death before. It's clear that people like you want to think of NFPs a certain way, and nothing said will convince you otherwise.

This is absolutely ridiculous. I am asking for people to pick apart my perceptions, and part of the reason for me doing this is to help me decide whether my opinion is justified or not. I'm open to being "convinced otherwise."

 

[OrangeAppled]

Well maybe you can't provide the information that we are seeking, since you aren't like that. I've experienced this with all NFs. I have also experienced NFs that don't do this. We are seeking to understand the NFs that DO in fact do this. So if you don't... chill out. lol It's not directed at you at all if you don't do it.

I've seen people of many types do this, including Thinkers. That's the point - it's not a type issue. It's not an NFP-specific trait.