Pleas and their users

[Athenian200]

Yeah, that makes sense. I generally feel little need to debate with others my perspectives and would be most likely to simply walk away from a conflict too.

I would at least need to feel that my perspective made sense in some way before I could feel comfortable with it, though. So I would probably try to explain why I felt the way I did, and give them an opportunity to change my mind. I just don't like to be closed to the idea that I might be wrong about something, or may have overlooked something that would change my perspective.

If they started accusing me of things or something, I would probably walk away too. But I like to try and explain my views while listening to those of others to see if I can understand why the other feels that way, or even come to an agreement.

Does that make sense?

 

[tovlo]

Your Judging function (Fe) is on the surface and is Auxiliary (is more reflexive). So when you push people away from a tender spot, it's fairly out in the open and automatic.

Our Judging function (Fi) is internal and is Dominant (is more deliberate and more directly accessible to us). So when it gets bruised, the injury hits more at a sense of who we are, and we can push people away from that part in a more deliberate and duplicitous manner. IOW, we can drum up more pain, outrage, and irritation when our Judging buttons get pushed, and thus do the quiet "but you're an idiot" thing to justify to ourselves why we need space from you at that moment.

Not that it's your fault or anything. It's just that when it's bruised the J function can be a regular little monster.

Again, makes sense. Thanks for that insight. I never considered that the "you're an idiot" was defensive rather than a real assesment of personal merit.

Is the "you" in your response generic or because you assumed that I had personally been engaged in that sort of interaction? I'm not aware of any personal engagement like that, but only felt unsettled in the observing of it among others, fearing that in fact I was judged an idiot (or any other number of unpleasant things. ) privately.

 

[tovlo]

I would at least need to feel that my perspective made sense in some way before I could feel comfortable with it, though. So I would probably try to explain why I felt the way I did, and give them an opportunity to change my mind. I just don't like to be closed to the idea that I might be wrong about something, or may have overlooked something that would change my perspective.

If they started accusing me of things or something, I would probably walk away too. But I like to try and explain my views while listening to those of others to see if I can understand why the other feels that way, or even come to an agreement.

Does that make sense?

It makes sense to me. I was mostly thinking of situations I've been in previously where I've felt a lot of pressure to adopt someone else's perspective. I also feel compelled to be open to things that I may have overlooked that could open my perspective. I want to understand more than anything and I recognize that I don't have within me all I need to understand. I need other's perspectives to get the most clear picture. I actually think it's because of this tendency that sometimes I have to just walk away. Sometimes the pressure is so great on me to accept someone's perspective exclusively that I don't feel I have strength to resist. I have to walk away from those sorts of engagements to give myself some space to really consider their argument and remain open to other ways of seeing things.

Does that make sense?

(truthfully that question just flowed and then I realized the echo...but I truly want to know so it remains.)

 

[RDF]

Is the "you" in your response generic or because you assumed that I had personally been engaged in that sort of interaction?

That's the collective you (throughout the post), as in "all of you crazy INFJs."

I'm not aware of any personal engagement like that, but only felt unsettled in the observing of it among others, fearing that in fact I was judged an idiot (or any other number of unpleasant things. ) privately.

A bruised J is unsettling. I was married to an ISTJ for 10 years, and I've been with my INFP wife for 8. Whether it's internal or external, Dominant or Auxiliary, it's hard not to take that thing personally when it pushes me away.

 

[Athenian200]

It makes sense to me. I was mostly thinking of situations I've been in previously where I've felt a lot of pressure to adopt someone else's perspective. I also feel compelled to be open to things that I may have overlooked that could open my perspective. I want to understand more than anything and I recognize that I don't have within me all I need to understand. I need other's perspectives to get the most clear picture. I actually think it's because of this tendency that sometimes I have to just walk away. Sometimes the pressure is so great on me to accept someone's perspective exclusively that I don't feel I have strength to resist enough to actually constructively look at it and analyze where I agree or where things still don't make sense to me. I have to walk away from those sorts of engagements to give myself some space to remain open.

Does that make sense?

(truthfully that question just flowed and then I realized the echo...but I truly want to know so it remains.)

Oh, yes. That's usually when I walk away... if the person pressures me about their viewpoint when I think I disagree. I usually prefer discussing it when the other person isn't pressing me to accept their perspective, or also seems willing to accept that they might be wrong if I can explain why.

I've never been called an "idiot" by an INFP. The feeling I always got was that they dismissed my views as "logic," which was what hurt. Being called an idiot wouldn't bother me as much, but being accused of having a perspective based only on logic makes me feel rather worthless. It was also confusing, because I usually believed I had taken people's emotions into account with my own perspective.

 

[RDF]

I've never been called an "idiot" by an INFP. The feeling I always got was that they dismissed my views as "logic," which was what hurt. Being called an idiot wouldn't bother me as much, but being accused of having a perspective based only on logic makes me feel rather worthless.

Again, it's just "bruised J" pushback. It's whatever will get the INFP some space. You can take it personally if you wish. But you needn't. The bad feelings are gone on the INFP's side as soon as the INFP's personal space/autonomy is restored.

 

[tovlo]

That's the collective you (throughout the post), as in "all of you crazy INFJs."

The bad feelings are gone on the INFP's side as soon as the INFP's personal space/autonomy is restored.

A bruised J is unsettling. I was married to an ISTJ for 10 years, and I've been with my INFP wife for 8. Whether it's internal or external, Dominant or Auxiliary, it's hard not to take that thing personally when it pushes me away.

Yeah, that's true...but it is easier not to when you understand the dynamics of what might be going on in the other person, so thanks!

 

[RDF]

Yeah, that's true...but it is easier not to when you understand the dynamics of what might be going on in the other person, so thanks!

Glad to help, Tovlo.

I don't know if you caught an edit on one of my earlier posts. In one of the posts describing the bruised J, I added:

FWIW, by the way, my wife and I are both INFPs. We know what's going on in each other's minds when we get on each other nerves.

It's kind of funny when my wife gets steamed. Sometimes she even mutters under her breath, "Idiot!" But it's over just that quick. Nowadays I kind of just snicker when I see her stewing about something. She's funny when she gets angry. I just give her room for a little bit, and everything's fine again. I've learned not to take it personally, and she has learned not to take it personally when I glower at her. INFPs run hot and cold. Nothing to be done about it but simply wait it out.

 

[tovlo]

Oh, yes. That's usually when I walk away... if the person pressures me about their viewpoint when I think I disagree. I usually prefer discussing it when the other person isn't pressing me to accept their perspective, or also seems willing to accept that they might be wrong if I can explain why.

I do get the sense that your threshold for walking away might be higher than mine due to a greater ability or willingness to engage in trying to defend your perspective. I generally lack both a strength of perspective worth defending as well as the skill to defend, so I perhaps reach the point of choosing to walk away sooner. I'm most comfortable when my engagement with others is of a more cooperative, exploratory nature and if I sense I'm in a combative environment at all, I'll generally excuse myself. There are exceptions, but that's my usual tendency.

Anyway yes, aside from any potential threshold differences, it sounds like we're on a similar page. Thanks for sharing your experience, athenian. My Fe appreciated it.

 

[tovlo]

It's kind of funny when my wife gets steamed. Sometimes she even mutters under her breath, "Idiot!" But it's over just that quick. Nowadays I kind of just snicker when I see her stewing about something. She's funny when she gets angry. I just give her room for a little bit, and everything's fine again. I've learned not to take it personally, and she has learned not to take it personally when I glower at her. INFPs run hot and cold. Nothing to be done about it but simply wait it out.

What's funny is that while I've felt uncomfortable in the past observing other INFP's and worrying that I held a place of contempt quietly in their hearts, I've never had that worry about the INFP who has my heart. Odd that. But glad for that too. Though if ever I do hear "idiot" muttered quietly from his lips, perhaps now I'll have the perspective to understand.

 

[RDF]

Though if ever I do hear "idiot" muttered quietly from his lips, perhaps now I'll have the perspective to understand.

My wife actually picked that up from TV. On "Everybody Loves Raymond," the wife Deborah used to toss a scornful "Idiot!" at Ray. So my wife would toss an "Idiot!" at me right about the time when her anger was lifting, both as a joke and as a last blast of real irritation and exasperation. I would act mortally wounded, and my wife would start laughing. So it wasn't as bad as it sounds.

But I tell my wife to feel free to get good and angry at me when she wants. That's better than bottling it up. I know she can really get fuming at times (like any good INFP). So the quicker she gets angry, the quicker she gets over it and we get back to the good times. Emotions aren't a problem for us. Get 'em out there in the open, and we'll work through them one way or the other.

But it's good to hear that you and your special INFP are on the same wavelength. You two do what's best for you.

 

[nightning]

Is the INFJ the first and last one? It sounds right, though I'm not very familiar really with ENTP's.

You've got that right...

INFJ: "I wonder what will happen if... "
ENTP: "Let's try it! And while we're at it... "
INFJ: "No no no! That'll..."

It's usually what happens when I mumble something to myself under my breath and was overheard.

Your "no no no!" left me laughing, because it's been pointed out to me that it's a trademark expression of mine. However, I guess I generally use it when someone is apologizing for something. I feel bad that they are feeling bad and so fire off a quick series of no's in an assurance that I experienced nothing they would have to apologize for.

Hehe... It's a favourite of mine as well. I use it both for emphasis as in the case above as well as for reassuring people that it's alright. That I didn't mind.

It makes sense to me. I was mostly thinking of situations I've been in previously where I've felt a lot of pressure to adopt someone else's perspective. I also feel compelled to be open to things that I may have overlooked that could open my perspective. I want to understand more than anything and I recognize that I don't have within me all I need to understand. I need other's perspectives to get the most clear picture. I actually think it's because of this tendency that sometimes I have to just walk away.

*nods* Sometimes I find myself doing the same. Wanting to walk away but at the same time feeling obligated to stay so I don't further hurt the other person's feelings.

But the need to understand other people's perspective really strikes a cord with me. Even though some decisions are personal and wouldn't really affect people however I decided to go, I still feel better talking to people and asking for their takes on things. I feel better in that I haven't overlooked areas when it comes to making my decision.

 

[RDF]

I've never been called an "idiot" by an INFP. The feeling I always got was that they dismissed my views as "logic," which was what hurt. Being called an idiot wouldn't bother me as much, but being accused of having a perspective based only on logic makes me feel rather worthless. It was also confusing, because I usually believed I had taken people's emotions into account with my own perspective.

Again, it's just "bruised J" pushback. It's whatever will get the INFP some space. You can take it personally if you wish. But you needn't. The bad feelings are gone on the INFP's side as soon as the INFP's personal space/autonomy is restored.

Athenian,

I was thinking about this exchange, and it occurs to me that my response was dismissive. I was looking at your situation as a past event and considering how you should deal with that past insult in the present.

But in terms of encountering such situations in the future:

Assuming your INFP acquaintance knew in advance that the comment would hit you where it hurts, then I would say the comment was over the line. As a rule, I would say that it's okay to show emotion, but it's not okay to go for the other person's jugular vein. Going for the jugular vein just transfers the hurt elsewhere and keeps the conflict alive, albeit in a new "carrier."

So yes, if the wound was inflicted intentionally, I would say you have reason to be distressed and maybe even call your INFP acquaintance to account for what was said. (See below for more.)

But I tell my wife to feel free to get good and angry at me when she wants. That's better than bottling it up. I know she can really get fuming at times (like any good INFP). So the quicker she gets angry, the quicker she gets over it and we get back to the good times. Emotions aren't a problem for us. Get 'em out there in the open, and we'll work through them one way or the other.

In light of what I said to Athenian, and taking into consideration another somewhat contentious thread elsewhere where people discussed whether it's preferable to bottle emotions up or explode and let them out, let me clarify my statement in the quoted passage.

I encourage my wife to let her emotions out (even explosively), but on the other hand after 8 years together we take it for granted that we don't go for each other's jugular.

When we have gone for the jugular in the past, it has resulted in prolonged periods of tenseness and defensiveness. Shifting the hurt onto the other person by going for jugular only makes conflicts worse.

So I think it's important to qualify how we let our emotions out.

I encourage my wife to blow up and let things out because I do want to know when I'm repeatedly doing something that genuinely bugs her or trivializes her needs. If she only protests mildly, then often I don't take her protestations seriously--I assume it's just a passing irritation. For some things (especially things that I think are minor in the big scheme of things) I really do need her to blow a cork and get in my face so that I'll pay attention. Sometimes she even has to catch me in the act and blow up repeatedly before I can recognize the pervasiveness of the bad habit on my side. After all, Fi is inverted. I'm not necessarily all that Feeling-oriented toward the world around me.

But after 8 years together, we pretty much take it for granted that we stay away from each other's jugular. We fume, howl, growl, insult, glower, etc., but we also know enough to avoid those special places that really hurt. It's just common sense to us. But given the context above, I figured maybe I should spell that out in more detail here.

(Sorry for totally derailing the thread, by the way. Us INFPs like to dissect ourselves. My fault. )

 

[Nadir]

An acronym and a plea in a phrase I noticed somewhere, though I kind of relate to it -

"I'm not fucking joking!"

 

[prplchknz]

An acronym and a plea in a phrase I noticed somewhere, though I kind of relate to it -

"I'm not fucking joking!"

I can defienitly relate.

on what FineLine said about the jugular I don't go for the jugular unless all else has failed.

 

[TenebrousReflection]

Whether specifically intended as an insult or not, it seems INFPs are known for not providing "pushback" on arguments. Apparently it's a bit disconcerting to other types when INFPs hold a strong opinion on something but seem to feel no need to justify it or rationalize it to others, even in the face of strong contrary arguments.

Somewhere there's an old thread from last spring or summer where some NTs asked INFPs about the lack of "pushback," and I tried to explain that just because the other guy wants to argue a point it doesn't mean the INFP has to respond and argue back. But I'm not sure my explanation was a convincing one.

It may simply be that we INFPs get an opinion in our heads, and it has such an air of Fi inevitability to it that it just seems like too much effort to argue the point and try to explain it or justify it to others (or even to ourselves). Easier to just respond, "Whatever you say," and then go our own way and do what we intended to do all along.

I suppose it's basically just laziness. But in a way it reminds me of a INTP's Ti autonomy issue. We're so certain of our opinion that it's even kind of painful to hear other people second-guessing us on the point. On these core opinions, we experience contrary arguments almost as a violation of our personal space and our autonomy. Hence the phenomenon of feeling personally under attack when our opinions are attacked. And thus a certain amount of judicious conflict avoidance when it comes to certain subjects.

Basically, at such times you're probably seeing our internal Judging function rising to the surface and pushing you away from something connected with our core values.

If someone is being argumentive, then I don't see it as probable that they will be willing to listen to what I have to say with an open mind (based on personal experience of actually trying to be persuasive/defensive of my views in younger days). I may make an effort to get my point across if its someone I know, but with strangers, once it stops being a civil conversation, I'm "content to let them be wrong".

"One of us is right, the other isn't, lets let time show us the answer" - INxx ?

A more personal sentiment (often felt, but rarely spoken)...
"Aaaargh! why can't you see what I see, if you could, you would understand!"