P or J?

[Pionart]

Is ESTJ not supposed to get along well with INFPs? (As in, the complete opposite type.) I'm starting to suspect I got a real problem with them lol... they can be really attractive first (mutually) but then it turns into a disaster........ now of course it might not even be due to type, but I'm starting to see it as a repeating pattern lol.

STJs and NFPs have a suppressive relation to each other, so that's a difficult one to get to work. The NFP pulls on the STJ to use their Fi and Ne, and likewise the STJ pulls on the NFP to use their Si and Te. Too much of that causes stress.

 

[kittenke]

[MENTION=38431]kittenke[/MENTION] no, I resonate more with the example. If I lose my sense of security, the very first thing I do is brainstorm what to do next - with a cost benefit analysis. I don’t launch immediately into a plan B unless time is extremely short.

I don’t buy into type compatibility theory all that much. Compatibility ime depends much more on shared interests, values, humor, etc.

Ah ok. Yeah I really lack the ability to brainstorm so that's not really what I do in such a situation... I can lose quite some time being disoriented without even truly noticing that (it's not entirely conscious) and then I just somehow find some nonconventional approach that claims stuff that makes me hope that it will help... it is funny because it actually tends to add something valuable to my knowledge base eventually, yeah, even though it does feel like a lot of waste of time trying to use such an approach. So yeah, I somehow eventually find my way out of such bad situations and get reoriented and back to normal, it just takes too much time...

And yeah I wasn't sure about the type compatibility stuff. But I'm finding that I get to have a problem with people who seem like they fit the NFP dichotomies at least: they seem scattered with getting ideas easily that they also easily get excited about enough but then they have zero follow-through sigh lol. And they of course seem pretty emotional in general too. I thought INFP more than ENFP because they seem less uh, happy-go-lucky like the ENFPs are described as. They kind of are but not entirely as optimistic. They are also really impractical...

STJs and NFPs have a suppressive relation to each other, so that's a difficult one to get to work. The NFP pulls on the STJ to use their Fi and Ne, and likewise the STJ pulls on the NFP to use their Si and Te. Too much of that causes stress.

Hmm, yeah, I find I can get either overly sensitive or overemotional if I get too close to these people and some conflict comes up with them. (Until the conflicts come up, it's actually okay.) I'm more resistant to their weird or impractical ideas compared to the touchy-feely stuff. Whatever that means for type.

 

[Pionart]

Hmm, yeah, I find I can get either overly sensitive or overemotional if I get too close to these people and some conflict comes up with them. (Until the conflicts come up, it's actually okay.) I'm more resistant to the weird ideas compared to the touchy-feely stuff. Whatever that means for type.

If you're more resistant to the ideas than the touchy-feely stuff then that would suggest that Intuition is lower down in your stack than Feeling is.

Personally, I see you as an ISTJ.

 

[kittenke]

If you're more resistant to the ideas than the touchy-feely stuff then that would suggest that Intuition is lower down in your stack than Feeling is.

Personally, I see you as an ISTJ.

Thanks for the input on type (too)! Would the stuff about lacking brainstorming ability and getting disoriented getting stuck in difficult situations while finding a nonconventional approach to find my way back to normal also fit that?

 

[Pionart]

Thanks for the input on type (too)! Would the stuff about lacking brainstorming ability and getting disoriented while finding a nonconventional approach to find my way back to normal also fit that?

Well, brainstorming is associated with Ne, so if brainstorming is something you can consciously do, but have trouble with, then that definitely fits with Ne as the 4th function.

I associate conventional approaches with Si, so if you get disoriented when needing to find a non-conventional approach, then that would fit with having Si as the 1st function. It would be like being in an unfamiliar place without a map, and needing to get back to a road you already know.

 

[kittenke]

Well, brainstorming is associated with Ne, so if brainstorming is something you can consciously do, but have trouble with, then that definitely fits with Ne as the 4th function.

I associate conventional approaches with Si, so if you get disoriented when needing to find a non-conventional approach, then that would fit with having Si as the 1st function. It would be like being in an unfamiliar place without a map, and needing to get back to a road you already know.

I'm not quite sure I'd claim I can do brainstorming lol, I really dislike it too much. But yeah the (really very) little ability I got for it, you can call it conscious. I did notice this one thing - if this is type related at all - if I focus on really *wanting* something, I'm decently able to brainstorm some concrete options for it then, though it's still not many options. They tend to be really practical, realistic options, too. When I'm really disoriented, I lose trust in trying more of those options though, and that's when I end up with the nonvoncentional stuff.

So yeah your Si stuff seems fitting here, when I can no longer use the conventional approaches I got, is when I will get disoriented like that and do need some new approach for sure... and then what I find (with stress/difficulty) can be really nonconventional, for my taste, lol. But I somehow become open to trying it then. Somehow I want to believe it will work or something. I like the map analogy, I'd say, what I want to get back to is the nice clear and concrete course for my goals. So you can call that the road I know. Where I'm oriented well.

 

[Pionart]

I'm not quite sure I'd claim I can do brainstorming lol, I really dislike it too much. But yeah the (really very) little ability I got for it, you can call it conscious. I did notice this one thing - if this is type related at all - if I focus on really *wanting* something, I'm decently able to brainstorm some concrete options for it then, though it's still not many options. They tend to be really practical, realistic options, too. When I'm really disoriented, I lose trust in trying more of those options though, and that's when I end up with the nonvoncentional stuff.

So yeah your Si stuff seems fitting here, when I can no longer use the conventional approaches I got, is when I will get disoriented like that and do need some new approach for sure... and then what I find (with stress/difficulty) can be really nonconventional, for my taste, lol. But I somehow become open to trying it then. I like the map analogy, I'd say, what I want to get back to is the nice clear and concrete course for my goals. So you can call that the road I know. Where I'm oriented well.

Well, for an ISTJ, the brainstorming i.e. Ne will work best when it has been filtered through Si, Te, and then Fi, so if something meets the requirements for all of those functions then it will be something that may be easy to do. However, brainstorming for the sake of brainstorming will likely cause high levels of discomfort.

For me, brainstorming isn't something I can do, but if I do try to do it it actually tends to help my creativity. When I try to brainstorm my mind just goes blank, but then I come up with a more creative approach, but it's singular/convergent, rather than branching out in multiple directions. For me, Ne is unconscious but energising. For an SJ it is conscious and de-energising, and for an SP it is unconscious and de-energising, so SPs would have the hardest time with it.

(actually, this response seems off, because I don't believe we're purely one type or another... so really, I can do conscious brainstorming... hmm)

 

[kittenke]

I'll add, where I called myself adaptable enough, that's for situations where I'm not disoriented like that ofc... then I can easily find some way to get around, and it doesn't really feel like much brainstorming either. Just using the available concrete options I can see well. It's usually pretty practical stuff and it's situations where I'm used to finding my way around. Nothing totally out of the ordinary for me at least. So I apparently don't need to prepare so much in some situations where others do... like traveling to a new country, I don't overdo preparations, though I definitely take care of what I know I will definitely have to do. But I have confidence that I'll be able to navigate the rest when I am there. Staying with the travel example, infrastructure to me is usually pretty logical so that's why I have confidence in finding my way around. That applies in other situations too... I just rely on practical logic really beside keeping my two eyes open lol. I consciously make myself not care about what could possibly go wrong, I just focus on the task instead.
[MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] would you say that makes sense for ISTJ?

 

[Pionart]

I'll add, where I called myself adaptable enough, that's for situations where I'm not disoriented like that ofc... then I can easily find some way to get around, and it doesn't really feel like much brainstorming either. Just using the available concrete options I can see well. It's usually pretty practical stuff and it's situations where I'm used to finding my way around. Nothing totally out of the ordinary for me at least. So I apparently don't need to prepare so much in some situations where others do... like traveling to a new country, I don't overdo preparations, though I definitely take care of what I know I will definitely have to do. But I have confidence that I'll be able to navigate the rest when I am there. Staying with the travel example, infrastructure to me is usually pretty logical so that's why I have confidence in finding my way around. That applies in other situations too... I just rely on practical logic really beside keeping my two eyes open lol. I consciously make myself not care about what could possibly go wrong, I just focus on the task instead.

[MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] would you say that makes sense for ISTJ?

Yeah, I could definitely see it coming from an ISTJ perspective.

One word that describes ISTJ is "prepared", so maybe when you say you don't have to do preparations, it's because you're naturally prepared for things? Like I might not need to study for a theory-based exam because I just easily pick up the concepts involved.

Knowing the layout of infrastructure, especially calling it logical, could very well indicate Te.

 

[kittenke]

Yeah, I could definitely see it coming from an ISTJ perspective.

One word that describes ISTJ is "prepared", so maybe when you say you don't have to do preparations, it's because you're naturally prepared for things? Like I might not need to study for a theory-based exam because I just easily pick up the concepts involved.

Knowing the layout of infrastructure, especially calling it logical, could very well indicate Te.

Yeah it's like you said with your example. Instead of "prepared" though, I'd prefer the word "oriented", in terms of being confident and able to keep my direction for whatever task/goal. I prepare in detail too for certain situations of course, it's just not all situations for sure.

 

[Norexan]

Hmm, yeah, I find I can get either overly sensitive or overemotional if I get too close to these people and some conflict comes up with them. (Until the conflicts come up, it's actually okay.) I'm more resistant to their weird or impractical ideas compared to the touchy-feely stuff. Whatever that means for type.

ESTP can literally destroy INFP. Change them to the point of severe unhealthiness. They are the enemies.

1st: one is romantic one is not at all
2nd one is sensitive and deep one is cold and shallow
3rd: one is practical and fast one is opposition of any practicality and slow
4th: one is always about action one is all about daydreaming.

Enemies formula:

XYZJ or XYZP
WHERE X , Y , Z is opposition of your type.

For example:

If you are ISTJ your enemy type will be ENFJ etc.

 

[kittenke]

ESTP can literally destroy INFP. Change them to the point of severe unhealthiness. They are the enemies.

1st: one is romantic one is not at all
2nd one is sensitive and deep one is cold and shallow
3rd: one is practical and fast one is opposition of any practicality and slow
4th: one is always about action one is all about daydreaming.

Hmm besides me getting oversensitive, the issues would arise either from them feeling like I'm too controlling, too crudely pushy, too distant or cold emotionally, and/or from me finding them too irresponsible, lacking in commitment, either in the ability or willingness to commit or in the ability to do follow-through.

The daydreaming itself bothers me a lot less. As long as it's not like done 24/7. The lack of practicality on its own also doesn't bother me as much, I don't mind making up for the lack of it in that area. Slowness sometimes is annoying, sometimes not. I've got a decent amount of patience for their irrationality (lack of logic) usually, sometimes that would be annoying too but I don't really criticise about that even when it's to the point of being exasperating and interfering with other things. I have too much patience for that part really...

And when I talk of lack of commitment and follow-through and of irresponsibility, I really mean IMO extreme stuff, I don't expect people or myself to be always consistent in every little thing (not even possible), but when to the best of my knowledge we are committed to a course of action, this would always become a problem sooner or later, either from their end or from my end first. Them protesting or wanting to give up, or me getting upset over them breaking promises, etc.

So I think I don't mind the stuff you listed, just these things would really get on my nerves.

You know this now makes me sound like a real strong J but I still think I'm only mid-strong on that dichotomy at best, I sound strongly J just compared to these people... I've always been fine with doing some adapting and stuff, for their changeability, just I do reach a point where it just gets to be too much in some cases. I'm still not entirely sure it's due to type differences in all these cases, but sometimes I'm sure it was that. Just the approach being too different along with communication breakdowns.

 

[kittenke]

I can see how it does sound like what [MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] said, too much Fi influence from them (me feeling too oversensitive, overemotional), and too much Te influence from me (them feeling I'm "too controlling, too crudely pushy, too distant or cold emotionally"). Along with a J/P conflict or in other words too much lack of Te from them and too much lack of Ne from me?

What would be different for a Fe/Te conflict?

 

[Norexan]

Hmm besides me getting oversensitive, the issues would arise either from them feeling like I'm too controlling, too crudely pushy, too distant or cold emotionally, and/or from me finding them too irresponsible, lacking in commitment, either in the ability or willingness to commit or in the ability to do follow-through.

The daydreaming itself bothers me a lot less. As long as it's not like done 24/7. The lack of practicality on its own also doesn't bother me as much, I don't mind making up for the lack of it in that area. Slowness sometimes is annoying, sometimes not. I've got a decent amount of patience for their irrationality (lack of logic) usually, sometimes that would be annoying too but I don't really criticise about that even when it's to the point of being exasperating and interfering with other things. I have too much patience for that part really...

And when I talk of lack of commitment and follow-through and of irresponsibility, I really mean IMO extreme stuff, I don't expect people or myself to be always consistent in every little thing (not even possible), but when to the best of my knowledge we are committed to a course of action, this would always become a problem sooner or later, either from their end or from my end first. Them protesting or wanting to give up, or me getting upset over them breaking promises, etc.

So I think I don't mind the stuff you listed, just these things would really get on my nerves.

You know this now makes me sound like a real strong J but I still think I'm only mid-strong on that dichotomy at best, I sound strongly J just compared to these people... I've always been fine with doing some adapting and stuff, for their changeability, just I do reach a point where it just gets to be too much in some cases. I'm still not entirely sure it's due to type differences in all these cases, but sometimes I'm sure it was that. Just the approach being too different along with communication breakdowns.

INFP are not irrational. They are rational (Feeling type). They do things to you what you do to them.
Or in another words they will never do things to you if they don't feel hurt by you.
They will never do things only because they feel that would be so interesting idea to do it like ENFP.
If they feel hurt they will over-intellectualize things. And inf Te can be really sharp when comes to words slashing your soul into pieces.

INFP usually see ISTJ as stable and secure ground.
So I don't think you are ISTJ but ESTP type 8 or ESTJ type 3.


What would be different for a Fe/Te conflict?


Etiquette people (Idealization of people) vs Objective view on world.
Fe will think that Te is selfish (this is actually good indicator of Fe) while Te for Fe that he is fake because all of that altruism and wanted to be nice to everyone.

From personal experience I will never called selfish by Fi person. If they are my friends they understand importance of my emotions and my values. The Fe don't! They look first on emotions of others and how to please everybody needs.
See every person in life equally. I cannot stand their flattery and fake sometimes no matter how I try to be reasonable.

 

[kittenke]

INFP are not irrational. They are rational (Feeling type). They do things to you what you do to them.
Or in another words they will never do things to you if they don't feel hurt by you.
They will never do things only because they feel that would be so interesting idea to do it like ENFP.
If they feel hurt they will over-intellectualize things. And inf Te can be really sharp when comes to words slashing your soul into pieces.

Yeah that description is about right lol. By irrationality I meant lack of practicality/logic.

INFP usually see ISTJ as stable and secure ground.
So I don't think you are ISTJ but ESTP type 8 or ESTJ type 3.

Well compared to their NFP-ness I'm definitely stable and grounded lol... I think for Enneagram I'm either 1 or 3.

What would be different for a Fe/Te conflict?

Etiquette people (Idealization of people) vs Objective view on world.
Fe will think that Te is selfish (this is actually good indicator of Fe) while Te for Fe that he is fake because all of that altruism and wanted to be nice to everyone.

From personal experience I will never called selfish by Fi person. If they are my friends they understand importance of my emotions and my values. The Fe don't! They look first on emotions of others and how to please everybody needs.
See every person in life equally. I cannot stand their flattery and fake sometimes no matter how I try to be reasonable.

Thanks, I see. Have you got an example of Fi emotion/value that in your experience Fe people don't get?

 

[Norexan]

Thanks, I see. Have you got an example of Fi emotion/value that in your experience Fe people don't get?

Fe people always blame you, always is your fault, always you are the enemy which irritate me.
They don't understand mechanism of emotions as I am.
For example for Fi user emotions is:

"I like, I hate, I love..." etc
and for Fe is like
"They like, They hate, They love" etc

They even called my love selfish because they think love works in both way.
But it is one way road. When somebody of your love ones dies you still love them even they are not able to do so. (as Те/Si you are able to understand this better then me)
I can love somebody and not be with that person. Basic it is same thing as she is dead.

Well compared to their NFP-ness

Compere to NP everybody else looks like stable and grounded i.e. sensor

I mean you cannot miss NP. They are so mad and outside of reality.

 

[kittenke]

Fe people always blame you, always is your fault, always you are the enemy which irritate me.
They don't understand mechanism of emotions as I am.

I don't like emotional blame without factual basis either...

For example for Fi user emotions is:

"I like, I hate, I love..." etc
and for Fe is like
"They like, They hate, They love" etc

They even called my love selfish because they think love works in both way.
But it is one way road. When somebody of your love ones dies you still love them even they are not able to do so. (as Те/Si you are able to understand this better then me)
I can love somebody and not be with that person. Basic it is same thing as she is dead.

Hm I see. Of course if someone I loved dies, I still love them... but if they are alive and choose to not reciprocate my interest, I'll be unable to keep up the emotional investment, and I don't want to either, I actually have a rule for this. Are you saying that's Fe then?

Anyway, I do know some people will invest love in others even when it's not reciprocated, I don't think of calling it selfish, it's just simply not something I can and will do.

Compere to NP everybody else looks like stable and grounded i.e. sensor

I mean you cannot miss NP. They are so mad and outside of reality.

 

[kittenke]

Thought a bit more on the Fe stuff you talked about above [MENTION=34350]Norexan[/MENTION],

I think I do take issue, especially lately, with certain people who try to be really nice to me without them considering me as an actually special person, even if they claim so in words. Their actions show that I'm just one of quite a lot of other people they like... they supposedly like me a lot, but I try to keep my distance from such people as I don't like how I'd feel I'm being manipulated into caring more than I should, considering that I'm not all that special to them after all, compared to other people liked by them. I don't know if the manipulation is conscious or unconscious by them. But either way, it's definitely manipulation even if not for dark purposes, just for the purpose of being liked, to have other people act nice towards them, do more things for them, spend more time with them than they would by default, I suppose.

Also, like I said earlier, I find if I try to comply with their or other people's expectations for "nice", i.e. considerate, affirmative, warm behaviour (unspoken expectations until they get really triggered), that gets to feel fake. I'm ok with being socially conscientious but not in a directly warm or personally affirmative way. My approach includes rules for superficial social niceties/politeness but nothing that'd be clearly personal. Also I can be quite altruistic too, helpful without any expectation of specific repayment for it, but that's not really in any personal way either. I think it is obvious to the people I'm being helpful to that I am not doing it in a personal way, so they cannot mistake it for personal care that doesn't actually mean more than what it would appear to be in a fake-ish way. Obvious because I don't add the personal touch in my style. None of all that affirmation/validation and expression of like and whatnot.

Then, I am okay with treating people equally well, I do actually have rules of behaviour for that, I'm very socially oriented in this way, but again I can't include personal needs/personal preferences into the treatment of people. Only if I deem the person close to me. It'd take way too much effort for me to try and do it for everyone, and not just effort but it'd be disturbing to myself, as I'd not be able to keep my comfortable distance to people. Instead, I'm able to be helpful and socially conscientious/attentive in a task-oriented way, interfacing with people through the impersonal approach, that way I'm very comfortable with keeping personal distance.

With this approach, I'm not paying special attention to emotions of others, if the emotions and the needs indicated by them don't comply with the rules I'm acting by, I ignore them. I can pay special attention only for those I deem close to me. But I won't be close with someone who just tries to be very nice to everyone in that warm personal seeming way. They would have to prove that they care more about me beyond that, but I wouldn't know how such a person would prove that. I've yet to see that.

But then yeah, like I said above, I won't be emotionally invested with someone who does not show/reciprocate emotional interest too. I do actually have difficulty to even get my own emotional interest going if they don't show it themselves. I'd have difficulty with it even if I didn't have the rule for requiring reciprocation.

Sound Fe or Fi?

 

[Norexan]

I don't like emotional blame without factual basis either...

Depends on perception...

Also, like I said earlier, I find if I try to comply with their or other people's expectations for "nice", i.e. considerate, affirmative, warm behaviour

OK, this is just Thinking > Feeling .

I won't be emotionally invested with someone who does not show/reciprocate emotional interest too.

Fe. You have to see emotions on others (Fe+Se values) ETP find EXTREME difficult to deal with IFP. Why?
dom Fi can be really cold to others, without showing any emotions and they will feel anger if you cannot read them. Scratch beneath the surface.
They need someone who can read them, understand them etc.

I think you are ESTP 3

 

[kittenke]

Depends on perception...

I prefer to get all the relevant facts really to know where to correctly place the emotions, but yeah it can be hard to be fully objective obviously especially when you're already upset, it's going to take a while then. For me anyway.

OK, this is just Thinking > Feeling .

Ah, ok, another poster did say the same basically.

Fe. You have to see emotions on others (Fe+Se values) ETP find EXTREME difficult to deal with IFP. Why?
dom Fi can be really cold to others, without showing any emotions and they will feel anger if you cannot read them.
They need someone who can read them, understand them etc.

I think you are ESTP 3

Thanks for the input on type!

I would think though that everyone has to see the feelings of the other person in a relationship, and as far as I've understood, Fi is still readable feelings, just less uh, directly. It's true though that I do want to see some obvious enough emotions too. Subtlety escapes me in the moment heh. I can sometimes realise in retrospect... but I'm better at analysis of behaviour to assess e.g. how much someone cares about me.

I'll add one more thing about the above mentioned overly indiscriminating kind nice Feelers (that seem Fe...?), my realisation recently was really shocking after observing them more about how indiscriminating they really are. I've seen them declare how much they reaaaaaaally sooo much feel extra care/compassion/closeness for some people, and then their behaviour didn't indicate so over time. Some care, sure, but not THAT much.

Or they would do quite a big helpful thing for someone, that I would never think of doing for 99.99999...% of people, but again, their behaviour later didn't indicate there was all that much care beyond a point. Not that deep or exclusive or anything special like that. Some serious lack of boundaries overall lol.

Is this a Fe/Fi mismatch here? Or a T/F thing more? It's REALLY jarring to me tho'. I'd like to figure out how/why exactly, too.


Anyway. My main problem with the INFP-ish people is the scattered unreliable stuff, I don't really experience them as too unemotional... they definitely show more feelings than I do (though I do show some too without even noticing it sometimes).

Have you got any concrete examples of ESTP-INFP interactions over this issue of ESTP not reading their Fi right?