[so] Out of the Closet - so/sx?

[HongDou]

I really apologize for taking so long to reply. I wanted to write something good for you and I felt anxious about it, so I procrastinated.

I appreciate the effort you put into this post. Thank you.

I absolutely, 110% am on board with you here. I do think your energy comes across as somewhat gentle, though still bright and assertive and playful. I don't relate to the aspect of being "loved or hated", either, or having a strong enough presentation to potentially quickly drive others away. My personal preference is to be at least neutral to everyone, to be liked by as many as possible, and to be hated by no one. To me, it is generally not worth alienating some people to have a better chance of obtaining the affections of others.

To be honest, the only time I alienate anyone is when I learn they did not like me beforehand. I've noticed that I tend not to mind anyone unless they either give off a vibe that they're not fond of me or when I'm told by someone else they said they don't like me. Not related, but I don't understand why people talk around each other's backs like that. I'd rather have things said directly to my face rather than finding out through indirect means. Going back to the Ariana Grande story I told earlier in response to Starry, I later saw on Twitter the guy tweeted "If you threaten to punch me in the face over Ariana Grande, I'm embarrassed for you." It was one of the most annoying things I've ever experienced in my life. That bastard didn't even have the backbone to say that to my face and instead passive aggressively tweeted about it. I tweeted him back about how he needs to learn the true meaning of "talent" and he eventually apologized and tried to make up with me. I just said I forgave him to end the stupid drama he started, but I am upset that he was being a little bitch going behind my back and saying things rather than directly to my face. I feel like this sort of relates to so-doms and being alienated themselves. I hate being out of the loop with my friends, it makes me feel like I'm not close enough to them for them to confide in. It may be true, but all I want to do is forage close relationships with people. It's just a reminder that I haven't gotten close enough yet.

My only exception would be in the case of a romantic interest; I have lost myself to that trade-off before. I regretted it. In retrospect, I should never have subverted my own value system to gain affection, because later on my romantic interest was offensive to someone very important to me, and then I was left with the realization that not only had I lost the affection of quite a few people who I very may well have had good relationships with, were it not for me kowtowing to this other person, but I also no longer cared to have the affection of that person after discovering that they weren't going to reciprocate for me the prioritization I gave them. It was a lose-lose situation, but I did learn a very valuable lesson.

I did this recently with someone I held a little affection for. He used a certain word that I absolutely HATE being said in any context: "faggot". He was gay too. I wouldn't consider myself spineless in regards to my values (once again, the Ariana story), but I feel like I always end up bending over backwards for the person I like and get screwed over either way - intentionally or unintentionally. I regret not standing up for myself and my beliefs, and I ABSOLUTELY regret using the word myself around him once to get the point across. I felt like such a two-faced bastard. I'm still ashamed about it right now. But what's done is done, I'm just going to let that experience guide me in the future. Before that instance, I also let my friends say it in a context that wasn't even referring to homosexual men. It was just a word to insult people. They even asked me if I cared, and I said I didn't mind to maintain harmony. If it ever happens again, I'll make sure to stick up for myself. This is another reason why college made me step out of my comfort zone and question my self-typing. Previously no one would have ever said that about me and I would be comfortable enough to say something. Now I realize I'm more concerned with group harmony than I thought as there's still no reassurance the relationship will be maintained if I break harmony.

I also feel that sadness with people that I thought would be close friends forever and haven't been. I thought it of my friends in elementary... then middle... then high school... then college. It's been interesting to see who's stayed and who's moved on. I'm not close to anyone from my elementary or middle schools anymore. I have a handful of lasting high school friends, most of whom I don't see often but I am so happy to have. And then I have the same with my college friends - again, not as many have stayed close as I hoped but I'm discovering the nature of long-term friendships as opposed to the short-term ones. They're not as consistently close as I would have chosen, for the most part, but they're good. It's like you just pick up where you left off.

I'm glad you still have lasting relationships with your high school friends. I love my friends and would not want to lose contact, but in the event that I did, there would still be my best BEST friend that I refuse to lose contact with. I don't know what the future holds, but I'm going to fight as hard as I can to preserve our relationship. She is everything to me. She's the sister I've never had. It sucks we only had high school to spend together, but with her around she made those four years some of the best years of my life. I want to keep her close to me for as long as possible - ideally the rest of our lives.

It's true. For me I don't know if it was even the rarity, but it just sounds so much better than the other instincts. It's exciting, thrilling, captivating, magnetic, risky, deep, raw, electric. As suits the instinct proper, it's an attractive notion to be a Sexual dominant. It seems that often Social is regarded as a superficial, cliquey instinct, and Self-Pres is stereotyped as boring.

It's too true. There are no real negative stereotypes involving the sx instinct, while so seems like a superficial, cliquey social butterfly and sp seems like a simple-minded, dull, and self-centered person. It's not true, but stereotypes are stereotypes.

Like I said, this REALLY hit home with me. It became SO clear that I am a "where does it fit" thinker before a "how well does it fit" thinker. It was always my impression that thinking about how well-matched my partner and I are was a very Sexual sort of thought process - ha. Turns out, at least in this interpretation, that's more of a Social thought. Sexual, on the other hand, would be checking in on how well we're interfacing at all times, and while I do that some, it's not anywhere near as much. I'm far more concerned with our overall, lasting fit, and I assume that for the most part, if I get our fit right, the quality of interfacing will work itself out - and that is totally Social first.

This is exactly how I work with relationships.

It also suddenly becomes clear to me, realizing this, why many Sexual dominants tend to have shorter, more intense romantic involvements: I assume that the bond is foundational to the chemistry. Sure, you have to start out with a certain degree of chemistry, but I also feel like I have chemistry with a lot of people and it takes a heck of a lot more than good chemistry to make a good relationship, and more chemistry is created through the existence of that bond. Whereas someone who is Sexual might see things more in the light of the chemistry being what allows you to make the bond in the first place, and if you don't have good chemistry, there's no real point in keeping the bond. I now understand, I think, the So/Sx and Sx/So prioritization difference, and why the16type.info mindset descriptions are, respectively:

Sx/Sp - "I can have merging/intensity without having to leave my orderly & pleasing lifestyle."
Sx/So - "If I can maintain position and inclusion in the group/world, I can keep up and escalate all this merging/intensity."
So/Sx - "If I can get close to people with merging/intensity, I can make sure of and keep improving my position and inclusion in the group/world."
So/Sp - "If I can establish an orderly and pleasing lifestyle, I can make sure of and keep improving my position and inclusion in the group/world."

The So/Sx one put me off at first; I don't value my "position" in the world more than I value my close relationships. But that was looking at it through the lens of not understanding that bonding is more Social than Sexual, and close relationships are not Sexual. Close relationships are human, really, just like sex is human, and none the instincts have a monopoly on either.

To put in wording I personally understand better:

Sx/Sp - If I take care of myself and my resources, I can obtain the maximum intensity and stimulation possible.
Sx/So - If I attend to my social connections, I can obtain the maximum intensity and stimulation possible.
So/Sx - If I create intense stimulation, I can retain and improve my bonds and connections.
So/Sp - If I take care of myself and my resources, I can retain and improve my bonds and connections.

To be honest, the so/sx description was also what put me off of the idea on being so-first. I'm glad you reworded those because it makes a lot more sense this way. I don't value my "position" in the group world and in no way a social climber. Like your description says, I'm more about experiencing intense moments with other people because I know that will strengthen our bonds. I think the descriptions on the website would make a lot more sense if they didn't put "position" and "inclusion" on such a global scale. Of course I'm willing to be friendly with anyone who seems nice and interesting, but I don't care how the entire world as a whole sees me. I just want to feel connected to other people out there, and intensity is a very easy means of doing so.

So I think for myself, the crux of understanding my true stacking was to see that my overall goals are way more Social than Sexual - much more to hang onto lasting bonds and connections than to retain stimulation. My main problem had been associating "close relationships" with Sexual, and also mistaking my emphasis on the "fit" in relationships for Sexual. In reading about the instincts, the single word I identified with most was "immersion" - getting absorbed in something - a hot shower, for example, or the experience of listening to a concert. The term "immerse" comes from the Latin "to dip in", and the key element is the overwhelming harmony of the experience. I thought this was Sexual because of the "energy" being right, but I was looking at it the wrong way again. Sexual wouldn't measure the harmony of the atmosphere, but the intensity of the energy. Again, not Sexual.

I'm the same. Ideally, I just want my life to work out. I want to be surrounded by good friends, have a loving husband, and have a precious child. The sexual 7 has been described as a "dreamer who needs more than ordinary reality" and I put too much weight into the "dreamer" aspect of the description. I love to envision my future the way I previously described. That's all I want out of life, regardless of my financial position so long as we're not struggling or other living conditions. It's the people in my life that make it feel complete and that itself sounds like a very so/sx thing to say. As long as I have my treasured people with me, I can go anywhere I want and still feel at peace and happy. I just want that in life and to be fair, it's not that out of the ordinary. I eventually realized sexual 7s need much more than what I need - almost something that is unattainable. And that's why the sx instinct can be associated with this "longing." I always felt feelings of longing as well, but it was only just for my husband/soul mate (the words are interchangeable in my eyes) and a happy life. And it doesn't take much to make me happy. sx-doms seem a lot more "pickier" if that makes sense when it comes to what they want out of life. I guess "picky" could eventually become a negative stereotype for the sx instinct?

Thinking of those people, I occasionally will peruse Facebook and check in on my peers, old friends, current friends, etc. I like to see what they're doing, especially where they're working and who they're in relationships with. I like to see how people "fall in place". It's really neat to see, for example, a girl from middle school who was sort of snobby and in the popular clique, who is now a fun-loving and very compassionate bartender covered in colorful tattoos. She totally came into her own and has found a role where she can self-express and enjoy herself and provide a (relatively, lol) constructive service to society, too. I think that's really neat. I don't have any desire to pigeonhole anyone, but I like to see how people fit in the grand scheme - and certainly there is room for change and growth in that.

This is one of the reasons why I got into typology. I like to see how people "fall into" the whole theory of MBTI/Enneagram/etc. I don't like to put labels on anyone, but looking at people through different lenses is so neat and interesting to do. I like to see where on the charts they fall in, what it means for their interactions with other people especially. I wonder if so-doms commonly get into things like typology because it can assist them and help them navigate through the social realm? I wouldn't be surprised. While the unconscious and hidden motivations/fears are fascinating for me as well to uncover about people (I am an ENFP after all ), I think one of the big parts for me is what that means for them socially.

With my romantic relationships, like I mentioned before, I concentrate very much on the "fit" of things. I want us to be well-matched, and I assume that the perfect connection will grow out of that plus us working to make it so. I do have a strong desire for face-to-face direct interaction in the relationship - for looking "at" one another - but I have a stronger desire for us to do things together. Being companions is really my first priority. I think for a while I was under the impression that I wanted to completely lose myself in the other because I thought that would make for the best relationship quality, and to affirm that I have "The One". As it turns out, I don't really like completely losing myself in the other, for the reasons I described in that lose-lose situation earlier. I still have to retain me. My desire, instead, is for him to fit perfectly with me... for us to be perfect companions. I want us to be able to choose a mutually appealing living space, for us to do activities together we both enjoy, for us to complement each other in our strengths and weaknesses, for us to balance one another, for us to get along with each others' families and create a happy, stable unit. There is lots of stability here, more than intensity. Some of that comes from my 6, I think, while some comes from not Sx.

I'm 100% on board with this as well. This is what I want in my partner. I don't want to become one with my partner or "lose myself" in them. I'd rather have it so that we're two independent people that happen to be madly in love with each other. I need that companionship. I want to be myself and I want my partner to be himself. I want us to have our own friends, our own interests while still having similarities, our own personalities and values. This way, we find some harmonic resolution between our differences and bring, not just ourselves, but also different views, people, and ideas in society together. Two independent people creating a relationship together to me seems like a colliding of so many different things and yet it still works out through the power of love (sounds corny to call it that, but who cares). I love how love can bring about so much harmony between so many things.

Relatedly, I think about when my life is over, what I really want is to have made happier and more fulfilling lives for the people I love - my parents, my brother, my future spouse, my future children, and to make the world better through whatever sort of work I do. I don't have major aspirations for becoming famous or leaving a lasting mark on the world because from a bird's eye view, we are all fairly insignificant in the passage of time. That doesn't bother me very much. It just says to me that the sphere of my window for spreading love is relatively small, and cozy, and right here right now. I feel like it will be more productive and lasting to do good in my small life and have that echo out in ripples affecting everyone I touch, rather than to aim for a big effect and go all-or-nothing, potentially wasting it all. I don't want to spend my life obsessed about one singular thing, though I have the tendency to do so sometimes. I want to be able to cherish everything.

Hmm, I think this is the one part where we differ. I also want to work in a field that helps people (my intended major is currently psychology so I can work to become a therapist). I think I explained all this in a few posts before, but I really want to brighten up the world with my presence and make it a better place. However, while the aspect of being famous isn't something I completely desire, I do want to make my mark in the world in some way. Although it could be for very so-ish reasons. I just want people to remember my smile, my blind optimism, my faith that things will work out for the better in the end, my desire to light up the world and take all of it with them. I very much am a believer that if you can inspire one person (ENFPs are called The Inspirers, aren't they? ) then a chain reaction can occur. I want my positive disposition to spread throughout the world, I want to give people hope for the new day, I want to tell people it's okay to be sad while still being strong. I have so much I want to give to the world but I'm only one person, so I'm hoping as a therapist I can bring that to people and instill it in the lives of people around them while still being able to live for my passions. If that doesn't sound so/sx I don't know what does.

Anyway, Chanaynay, I hope some of this can be helpful.

It's good to hear from another person who is on the same journey of reflecting and re-assessing priorities and definitions and it's flattering to be summoned.

Thank you for your response. So much. In fact, it caused me to do a little more reflecting and I even learned a bit more about myself from it. Or I always knew and I finally managed to articulate it to the world. Either way, I'm very appreciative.

 

[Starry]

The thing is, though, that to me it just seemed like he was trying to be everyone's best friend. But if I stepped outside of my own perspective and looked from another's (I actually talked to a few people about this guy), it seems he's very "all about me." He has that sx/so energy that either pushes people away (in my case) or draws people in (in other cases). He never really focused on maintaining lasting connections, rather he was jumping around from one person to the next just looking for that intensity or rush that comes from connecting or merging with others. I think someone here described the sx instinct as "flighty" in that regard.

After I hit submit on the post I created this morning...it occurred to me that despite what I had said regarding the two addictions I am now willing to admit to myself I have...I had not yet satisfied both of them and wondered if my message would even make sense prior to consuming 27 cups of coffee. I was quite certain at that point there would be many holes.

At the time I responded to this, did I believe this flamboyant guy was an sx/so? No. And with this additional information, I've become even more convinced of so/sx as opposed to less (((I'm not entirely sure what causes this or why this occurs but there's a breed of e7...either wing can be involved but I specified an 8 wing lust/control...merely because it seems to fit this individual's character a bit better...and are very specifically stacked so/sx... these individuals behave nearly identical to what you're describing. And when you encounter a male or female who's hatred for e7s appears to be 'not of this earth' but rather defies space and time and stretches out towards infinity...know with great certainty that their lives have been touched by someone a lot like 'flamboyant gay guy.' They are complete and total narcissists. Basically, so-dominance gives them an understanding of 'the game' and allows them to manipulate the fuck out of people. Nevertheless, all that is occurring here is the characteristics you are assigning to sx [sx is pretty solid & constant really...I'd probably assign 'flightyness' to so tbh]... I am assigning to e7.)))
[^^edit: I should probably include something here that acknowledges the volatility of sx...making it clear that I see volatility as being entirely different than 'flighty' <-this sort of hopping from person to person in what is experienced as a lighthearted manner. When I make the claim of sx constancy...I'm referring strictly to the internal adherence to something like the attachment to a person or value... not the emotions surrounding them which for sx can sometimes seem like an internal hurricane that will occasionally spill out into the world for all to see and freak out on ]

BUT...And this is a massively big BUT... I am totally aware of how 100% wrong I could be regarding 'flamboyant gay dude's' type and really...at the end of the day I would most definitely defer to your assessment of him having actually known the guy. You totally understood the point I was attempting to make anyway.

In fact, I did this myself when I told some idiot yesterday to "shut the fuck up before I punch you in the face"...

OMG haha! I totally started laughing when I read this. Awesome (i love it because it was entirely real, raw, authentic and free... not cautious and scripted for harmony's sake :eck: which I'm explaining merely to explain sx.) And you having said STFU and then threatening violence is why I still welcome you into my heart like family haha. You are right in that so-doms will occasionally stray from 'the path of total harmony' and/or 'win-win solutions for all'...but like I said earlier in this thread...I do believe you are closer to having balanced so (dom) and sx (aux). And this is what makes you so charming.

I still think so-doms would not disrupt social harmony as much as sx-doms.

Definitely. And I think this is interesting as well... From what I understand of sp-doms having heard it over and over again now... is that sp-doms will also behave in ways that do not disrupt harmony but not because they care about networks and feelings and working-well together, etc. They just don't want be bothered haha. I've seen quite a few sp-doms indicate they often think like sx and behave like so.

Another part of sx descriptions I never related to was living in excess. I do believe there is such a thing as "milking it." I feel some things are best appreciated when they're rare occurrences or short-lasting as that may be what makes them special and magical. I'm not hoping the thunder will roar louder or the stars will shine brighter as I believe those things can best be appreciated as the world presents them. Of course I do love to enjoy myself and surround myself with various pleasures of life, but I simply don't have the energy to keep it up and keep asking for more. Eventually I get drained, as I'm sure everyone - even sx-doms - does, but I never really tried to escalate or intensify anything.

Over time, I've gained an appreciation for 'sobriety' <-which is meant as in the e7 alternative to 'gluttony' (not like AA)...And what I'm referring to here is my painful and painfully slow integration to e5. iow all gluttony gets blamed on e7 as opposed to sx...and perhaps I'm wrong in that regard idk.

Louder thunder... which actually we had a massive thunderstorm here (where I live) last night and I was going to tell [MENTION=5418]Lady X[/MENTION] that it was amazing! and the thunder seemed especially loud. And yes, I sat on the porch for most of the night experiencing all of it. So beautiful.

Intense experiences (powerful, beautiful, spiritual...not like 'going down with the Titanic' intense ) do not drain me but rather breathe Life into my life. It's a reminder that there's more...which is the value of it for me...and to know that what's out there has meaning. I'm not sure if that truly qualifies as a desire for excess... I'd argue that 'intensity' does not equal 'excess' but perhaps I'm failing to understand something here. Still, I most definitely enjoy and appreciate experiences due to rarity as well. Perhaps sx merely makes you more anticipatory? More expectant? More dependent on having something to be anticipatory about to provide a sense of purpose, endurance and wellbeing? (..all of which could just as easily be attributed to e7.) I'm at a loss...and honestly no longer know where I was going with this ha.

Either way it is important to remain mindful of 'social-domcenticism.' I imagine there are things that would give you tons of energy that would exhaust me just to think of them...like going to church, making sure everyone feels good about what they've been asked to bring to the company potluck, holding hands in a big circle and then orchestrating a group hug (<-haha). It's all relative

For example, I spent my summer with Leah, an ESFJ 1w2 sx/so (I only figured out her type this summer, being an sx 1 always made me think of her as an 8), and Tal, an INFJ 4w3 sp/so (I considered him being so/sp at one point, but he concerns himself more with sp matters and the so-ness just comes with being a heart center core). I was living with the INFJ's family in their house as they've been my close family friends since I was 7. The ESFJ is their neighbor. But that's not really important. I just thought it'd be a good example given that Leah is sx-dom and Tal is sx-last while I am somewhere in the middle. Leah got mad at Tal because he slammed the door on her fingers by accident when he was upset with her. Being an athlete, Leah got pissed off at Tal for "being a baby" and let her anger keep escalating further and further. She kept talking to me about all her ideas to get her revenge, while I just wanted her to calm down. She just kept intensifying her anger and trying think of ways to get a reaction out of him. All I did was just keep encouraging her to calm down and try to make up with him. Tal, on the other hand, seemed very calm and tame throughout the whole thing. I kept encouraging him to try and make up with her but he just kept saying "I will eventually." It honestly annoyed me more than Leah being a bitch, as he seemed apathetic about making up with her. I knew he considered her his best friend; he said so a few days earlier. So I was honestly baffled how he could just force himself to not go with his natural inhibitions try and mend what had been broken. She may have check-punched him beforehand, but if it were me I would still go to her and try to repair things if I held her as close to me as he did (this is probably sp-dom vs sp-last).

tl;dr: Tal refused to talk to Leah because she punched him and slightly punctured his cheek (sp-dom reacting) and kept postponing making up with her every time I asked him (sx-last refusing to honor his passions and keeping intensity as low as possible). I didn't get how he could refuse to try to make things up with one of his closest friends and why he was so upset about being punched. Leah just kept increasing her anger and letting the fire burn brighter (sx-dom intensity and trying to get a reaction out of Tal). All I wanted her to do was calm down and try to make up with him instead of letting their relationship crumble from the fire.

sx or not... if you accidentally slam an ESFJ's fingers in a door when you were angry... the only thing that needs to be done at that point is for you to assume a new identity and leave the country.

 

[HongDou]

They are complete and total narcissists. Basically, so-dominance gives them an understanding of 'the game' and allows them to manipulate the fuck out of people. Nevertheless, all that is occurring here is the characteristics you are assigning to sx [sx is pretty solid & constant really...I'd probably assign 'flightyness' to so tbh]... I am assigning to e7.)))

Hmm, I don't relate to this though. I have no real desire to exploit people, I just have an understanding of how people in the world generally operate and how to get what I'm saying in across in a manner where the result would be something I would consider ideal for everyone. I do know how to finesse my way around people when I feel like it's best to do so or if I want to get something I want but I generally don't resort to manipulation unless A) I know the person will still like me even if they found out my motives or B) I just don't give a shit about that person. So it's either end of the spectrum but not in between.

Hmm, I can see how the so-dom vs sx-dom (I actually don't know what your variants are but sx-dom has been implied from your posts) perspectives influence our views. In my mind, the "flightiness" you are assigning to so-types are just my genuine desire to build upon my relationships with as many people as possible so they can become as meaningful as they can. I want to include everyone I know in my time in this world, so it's hard to stay with just one person without excluding someone else and then sacrificing potential for bonding. It can be stressful especially when so many people are coming to me at once. I want to do things with everyone but I can't do it at the same time and I hate having to choose between people.

BUT...And this is a massively big BUT... I am totally aware of how 100% wrong I could be regarding 'flamboyant gay dude's' type and really...at the end of the day I would most definitely defer to your assessment of him having actually known the guy. You totally understood the point I was attempting to make anyway.

I recognize very well I could be wrong about my typing as him. Also, you can just refer to him as Matt in the future if we continue talking about him as one of my points.

OMG haha! I totally started laughing when I read this. Awesome (i love it because it was entirely real, raw, authentic and free... not cautious and scripted for harmony's sake :eck: which I'm explaining merely to explain sx.) And you having said STFU and then threatening violence is why I still welcome you into my heart like family haha. You are right in that so-doms will occasionally stray from 'the path of total harmony' and/or 'win-win solutions for all'...but like I said earlier in this thread...I do believe you are closer to having balanced so (dom) and sx (aux). And this is what makes you so charming.

Yay! I'm glad I'm still welcomed partially into the sx family. Although I'm beginning to question whether my levels of sx are as high as people are making it out to be. Last night all of my friends got to shotgun a beer for the first time AND funnel beer and I was just like "no" to both. I hate beer. It's so icky! I prefer hard liquor but even then I think I would turn it down. It is part of the so/sx description that they're likely to neglect their desire for intensity when making connections, but I feel I still do like to keep things exciting and such. My story still proves such since you're attributing the whole energy of it to sx. Maybe I was just having a non-sx moment? Haha. Plus I hate beer so that could be another reason. Everyone has their preferences. I only drink socially anyway.

Definitely. And I think this is interesting as well... From what I understand of sp-doms having heard it over and over again now... is that sp-doms will also behave in ways that do not disrupt harmony but not because they care about networks and feelings and working-well together, etc. They just don't want be bothered haha. I've seen quite a few sp-doms indicate they often think like sx and behave like so.

I think sp-doms are less harmonic than so but more harmonic than sx. I feel like they will disrupt harmony or group antics if they feel like their needs aren't being met or they physically aren't up for the challenge, but they're more satisfied and calm in their demeanor than sx-doms.

Still, I most definitely enjoy and appreciate experiences due to rarity as well. Perhaps sx merely makes you more anticipatory? More expectant? More dependent on having something to be anticipatory about to provide a sense of purpose, endurance and wellbeing? (..all of which could just as easily be attributed to e7.) I'm at a loss...and honestly no longer know where I was going with this ha.

I think that's a good way to explain it, if it makes you feel alive then I would assume you'd be more anticipating and expectant than those who are not sx-doms. I'm sure secondary sx would be more along the lines of "oh, there's a rain storm outside? Let's go dancing in the rain!" as opposed to sx-doms who would be like "I hope there's a rain storm soon! I want to go out and become a part of the storm." That's just my take on it anyway.

Either way it is important to remain mindful of 'social-domcenticism.' I imagine there are things that would give you tons of energy that would exhaust me just to think of them...like going to church, making sure everyone feels good about what they've been asked to bring to the company potluck, holding hands in a big circle and then orchestrating a group hug (<-haha). It's all relative

Ehh, I'm not a church person. I am Christian, but I've never attended church and just use religion more of as a guiding path for my own morals and beliefs. But yes, checking in with people can actually feel energizing if all goes well. If it doesn't, it felt more like a chore and also like a homework assignment so I can go talk to them again and try to end things on a better note.

sx or not... if you accidentally slam an ESFJ's fingers in a door when you were angry... the only thing that needs to be done at that point is for you to assume a new identity and leave the country.

HAHAHA

 

[skylights]

It would also be incorrect to assume, if I'm understanding skylights' statement properly, that a sx-dom will purposely malign some individuals in an effort to impress others. <-Like the thought of someone doing that to another person actually makes my blood boil and I can't even tell you how many times I've spoken-out, lashed-out, acted-out against this very thing...which, since I'm not attempting to make sure everyone likes me, is probably an easier thing for me to do in the moment. I've also always associated that kind of behavior with the 'socially savvy' tbh (an unhealthy expression of things like Fe, social-variant, etc. but I could be wrong.) My point is...I would imagine (?) sx-doms as the individuals speaking-out against this behavior as opposed to the perpetrators of it.

Anyway, from a 'social-domcentric' position...(I guess) I can see how you guys could arrive at the conclusions you did but they do not reflect the reality of the sx-dom's experience. What you are witnessing and assigning intentions/social meaning to is far more simple I believe. I really do think the behavior and actions of a sx-dom merely reflect the natural flow of things when 'harmony' is not the primary goal/concern. We like harmony...but so much thought must go into it's ongoing maintenance and we are too busy insisting the stars shine brighter... Or demanding the thunder crash louder... We're just here trying to find our lost tribesmen is all and then I imagine we'll be on our way

Right, right, I don't see it as a conscious thing. When I wrote that particular statement I was thinking of my sx/so ESFP 7w8 coworker, who I LOVE, but who totally says things that completely throw people for a loop. For whatever reason I love people that are "raw" and I love hearing her talk straight - like sometimes she'll come over and tell select people in our department that her boyfriend just "nutted" in her. Or sometimes she'll sort of playfully announce it and see who's listening. I think it's hilarious, and I basically have zero sense of queasiness, so it doesn't bother me personally. But you should just see the look on some people's faces. It is work, after all. That all said, most people really love her. She's very magnetic and surprisingly endearing for as crass as she typically is. And it is partly the way she was (not) parented, not just her stacking.

I don't think an sx/so would purposefully malign others any more than any other type. But make them uncomfortable as a byproduct of the sx/so just going about their business, yes. It's just the nature of the energy to move to the next level - the "contraflow". So/sp and sp/sx can do it, too, just going about their normal business... something to their energy about fighting the current. Of course it is most dynamic with sx/so because that is arguably the most dynamic stacking of all. Like you said, just doing their thing and moving on, and not really attending to whatever disruption it may cause. It's not a bad thing; we need shaking up in the world. And like I said, I love my sx/so friend. It's just not something I would be comfortable with doing personally. I am hyperaware of my speech patterns and language utilized and there's no way I could let go of that self-consciousness and say something so stirring. I'd be kicking myself for the rest of the day.

Let me explain in better depth: I feel weird saying "I love you" to my boyfriend in front of my parents, for example, even though I do love him and they know I love him and I'm not shy to say that I love him. But it's the private exchange between us playing out in the public arena that feels uncomfortable to me. I feel very exposed and like I have stepped on something sacred that should be an insular exchange between us instead of a staged interaction. Like somehow opening it up to the public dilutes it, where once it was intense and heavy and energized. The same would go for telling someone else that he came in me. I mean, yeah, we have sex, but somehow to me sharing something that is a higher-order intimacy with a larger arena feels taboo, like a breaking of understood code.

So to loop back to what I said, it's not as if I purposefully enforce harmony or hate people who disrupt it. But personally, in my own day-to-day operation, I typically have the ultimate goal of everyone being at harmony, in addition to having close connections, and it's far easier to slowly and surely forge close connections than it is to just make those connections right away, while disregarding my impact on others, and then later trying to get everyone back into alignment. I just see it as far less of an energy expenditure to try to encourage harmony up front and then get down to business working on my close connections, instead of beelining to the connections and toppling whatever may be in my way only to have to return and right it later. The way I see it, the people I want to deeply connect with are going to continue to be around, and if they aren't, then I don't want to pour myself into forging a relationship with them anyway. I would ideally like to maintain warm, low-key interactions with everyone and then work more privately on strengthening my close connections.

As a sidenote, I do think that I have been coming into this more with age and am less swayed by individual people, in particular love interests. I have always been a pair-bonder but as I have grown I have become more independent of my partner and more interested in everyone getting along. Most notably in college I really let that one go to the wayside, having sacrificed some of my own identity for my love interest, and am still trying to forgive myself for all the good connections I neglected and am now hoping to reestablish.

 

[Starry]

Hmm, I don't relate to this though. I have no real desire to exploit people, I just have an understanding of how people in the world generally operate and how to get what I'm saying in across in a manner where the result would be something I would consider ideal for everyone. I do know how to finesse my way around people when I feel like it's best to do so or if I want to get something I want but I generally don't resort to manipulation unless A) I know the person will still like me even if they found out my motives or B) I just don't give a shit about that person. So it's either end of the spectrum but not in between.

Oh god...I wouldn't expect you to relate to any of it. I see nothing of the sort in you.

What I am/was describing is in no way an 'if -> then' type situation. As in if you are an ExxP e7 so/sx then you are undoubtedly a manipulative, Narcissist bastard. No, not at all. All this does is hand an individual the 'tools & materials' (Pe-dominance, e7 and social-dominance)...so that if the individual is especially unhealthy then 'manipulative, Narcissist bastard' seems to be a more likely end result (construction) based on that specific set of tools & materials.

^^You know, you mentioned my variants and I am sx/sp...which leaves me with only 2/3rds of the above formula. And yet I'll be very honest and say that I certainly have it in me to manipulate alongside the best of 'em (I refer to it as going 'full-rainbow.') So really what accounts for these things? (I should also probably state here that I do not feel all manipulation is bad.) All I know is despite what it may seem, people that manipulate on an ongoing basis as a 'life strategy' of sorts...to navigate their way through and get their needs met...they don't even know they are doing it - it's so second nature to them. If you are aware of when you are manipulating a situation...you are not a 'manipulator.'

In my mind, the "flightiness" you are assigning to so-types are just my genuine desire to build upon my relationships with as many people as possible so they can become as meaningful as they can. I want to include everyone I know in my time in this world, so it's hard to stay with just one person without excluding someone else and then sacrificing potential for bonding. It can be stressful especially when so many people are coming to me at once. I want to do things with everyone but I can't do it at the same time and I hate having to choose between people.

I totally understand this and sympathize I now understand that I have never had a so-dom lover/romantic partner... because I need to be able to go deep <-okay whoa that sounds... Umm if the intensity isn't there then I see no point in it and would a hundred times over prefer my freedom. I mean, I don't experience this in this way internally but maybe there is an arrogance and possessiveness inside of me? idk...but nothing will cause me to walk faster than being made to feel like 'one of many.' If the individual's attention is spread thin I won't be able to form a bond at the level I desire and will be left with the feeling of...what's the fuckin point? It feels dead to me. I definitely need the bond to be spiritual and significant. Am I scaring you yet? haha. Maybe I should say that most of the above comes into being without effort...it's a knowing. Like the lady from the movie 'When Harry Met Sally' describing how she knew she had met her true love (those were all real couples btw if you've seen it)...she said "you know like you know a good melon" ...Well I know another crazy when I see one

I can tolerate this quality in friends though...I am better able to allow 'what is' to prevail...letting go of 'what could be.' But I've felt the same sentiments from my so-dom friends. And not even directed towards me but outward towards everyone. Never verbalized like you did here...but I will feel this type of regret or apology coming off of them...and I have tried to relay back...'just be the best of who you were born to be ' Own it. Do what you came here to do.

…you can just refer to him as Matt in the future if we continue talking about him...

Why 'ello Governer... Matt you freaky dude.

Yay! I'm glad I'm still welcomed partially into the sx family. Although I'm beginning to question whether my levels of sx are as high as people are making it out to be. Last night all of my friends got to shotgun a beer for the first time AND funnel beer and I was just like "no" to both. I hate beer. It's so icky! I prefer hard liquor but even then I think I would turn it down. It is part of the so/sx description that they're likely to neglect their desire for intensity when making connections, but I feel I still do like to keep things exciting and such. My story still proves such since you're attributing the whole energy of it to sx. Maybe I was just having a non-sx moment? Haha. Plus I hate beer so that could be another reason. Everyone has their preferences. I only drink socially anyway.

Umm...some of the heaviest drinkers/partiers ever...presently and of all time throughout history haha are or have been so/sx. In my younger days I was quite close to two ENFP e7 so/sx's that I believe had booze as opposed to blood coursing through their veins. I am of the opinion that alcohol kills/deadens intensity which is why so many people drink it in order to gain access to intimacy... I'm not buying your theory mister!

I think that's a good way to explain it, if it makes you feel alive then I would assume you'd be more anticipating and expectant than those who are not sx-doms. I'm sure secondary sx would be more along the lines of "oh, there's a rain storm outside? Let's go dancing in the rain!" as opposed to sx-doms who would be like "I hope there's a rain storm soon! I want to go out and become a part of the storm." That's just my take on it anyway.

Secondary sx: "oh, there's a rain storm outside? Let's go dancing in the rain!"

Primary sx: "I hope there's a rain storm soon! I want to go out and become a part of the storm. And see what happens when one or both of us gets struck by lightening." (<-totally kidding)

Right, right, I don't see it as a conscious thing. When I wrote that particular statement I was thinking of my sx/so ESFP 7w8 coworker, who I LOVE, but who totally says things that completely throw people for a loop. For whatever reason I love people that are "raw" and I love hearing her talk straight - like sometimes she'll come over and tell select people in our department that her boyfriend just "nutted" in her. Or sometimes she'll sort of playfully announce it and see who's listening. I think it's hilarious, and I basically have zero sense of queasiness, so it doesn't bother me personally. But you should just see the look on some people's faces. It is work, after all. That all said, most people really love her. She's very magnetic and surprisingly endearing for as crass as she typically is. And it is partly the way she was (not) parented, not just her stacking.

I don't think an sx/so would purposefully malign others any more than any other type. But make them uncomfortable as a byproduct of the sx/so just going about their business, yes. It's just the nature of the energy to move to the next level - the "contraflow". So/sp and sp/sx can do it, too, just going about their normal business... something to their energy about fighting the current. Of course it is most dynamic with sx/so because that is arguably the most dynamic stacking of all. Like you said, just doing their thing and moving on, and not really attending to whatever disruption it may cause. It's not a bad thing; we need shaking up in the world. And like I said, I love my sx/so friend. It's just not something I would be comfortable with doing personally. I am hyperaware of my speech patterns and language utilized and there's no way I could let go of that self-consciousness and say something so stirring. I'd be kicking myself for the rest of the day.

I was almost prepared for you to reply by saying..."Umm...Starry you even said...?" because I've actually said a comment directly to you in a thread that I imagine could be taken in the same way as what I objected to here. I was joking...but of course there is/was a small fragment of truth there when I said: "the fastest way to identify an intimate is to be as offensive as you can and then see who's still standing there when the dust settles..." But really, if you can't talk about 'getting nutted' in a highly professional atmosphere where can you talk about it? <-okay I'm kidding.

I know sx-doms that do this kind of thing unawares... but most sx-doms know or at least possess some understanding of what they are doing in that regard...And yes, they do it to shake things up... I often say weird things to people for amusement purposes... And some do it like they are sending a message in a bottle (similar to what I presented above like...'a lost member of my tribe, someone meant for me will get this message.') Still, it's nearly impossible for me to qualify/judge the behavior on 'what it would mean if you did it' because it originates from a place so far removed from all social constructs. It's not intended to impress or malign (as I understand you know.) In the end its primary purpose is to say...'I'm alive. Who's alive here with me?'

I do not know anything really about this contra-flow thing.

Let me explain in better depth: I feel weird saying "I love you" to my boyfriend in front of my parents, for example, even though I do love him and they know I love him and I'm not shy to say that I love him. But it's the private exchange between us playing out in the public arena that feels uncomfortable to me. I feel very exposed and like I have stepped on something sacred that should be an insular exchange between us instead of a staged interaction. Like somehow opening it up to the public dilutes it, where once it was intense and heavy and energized. The same would go for telling someone else that he came in me. I mean, yeah, we have sex, but somehow to me sharing something that is a higher-order intimacy with a larger arena feels taboo, like a breaking of understood code.

So to loop back to what I said, it's not as if I purposefully enforce harmony or hate people who disrupt it. But personally, in my own day-to-day operation, I typically have the ultimate goal of everyone being at harmony, in addition to having close connections, and it's far easier to slowly and surely forge close connections than it is to just make those connections right away, while disregarding my impact on others, and then later trying to get everyone back into alignment. I just see it as far less of an energy expenditure to try to encourage harmony up front and then get down to business working on my close connections, instead of beelining to the connections and toppling whatever may be in my way only to have to return and right it later. The way I see it, the people I want to deeply connect with are going to continue to be around, and if they aren't, then I don't want to pour myself into forging a relationship with them anyway. I would ideally like to maintain warm, low-key interactions with everyone and then work more privately on strengthening my close connections.

As a sidenote, I do think that I have been coming into this more with age and am less swayed by individual people, in particular love interests. I have always been a pair-bonder but as I have grown I have become more independent of my partner and more interested in everyone getting along. Most notably in college I really let that one go to the wayside, having sacrificed some of my own identity for my love interest, and am still trying to forgive myself for all the good connections I neglected and am now hoping to reestablish.

I honestly think being an so-dom is just plain smart - I really do.

The whole talking about sex and intimacy thing...I do not and would not speak about that with anyone...even a close friend...which I've always attributed to NFness in general but perhaps I'm incorrect in that and am merely a different kind of sx-dom in that regard. It has nothing to do with offending others or not...just that I see it as highly sacred. But 'I love you, I love you, I love you...' will be said in a public arena quite often

 

[HongDou]

I've been meaning to respond to your post for AGES but I haven't gotten around to it just out of sheer laziness. I'm sorry! You know how us ENFPs can be.

I totally understand this and sympathize I now understand that I have never had a so-dom lover/romantic partner... because I need to be able to go deep <-okay whoa that sounds... Umm if the intensity isn't there then I see no point in it and would a hundred times over prefer my freedom. I mean, I don't experience this in this way internally but maybe there is an arrogance and possessiveness inside of me? idk...but nothing will cause me to walk faster than being made to feel like 'one of many.' If the individual's attention is spread thin I won't be able to form a bond at the level I desire and will be left with the feeling of...what's the fuckin point? It feels dead to me. I definitely need the bond to be spiritual and significant. Am I scaring you yet? haha. Maybe I should say that most of the above comes into being without effort...it's a knowing. Like the lady from the movie 'When Harry Met Sally' describing how she knew she had met her true love (those were all real couples btw if you've seen it)...she said "you know like you know a good melon" ...Well I know another crazy when I see one

Hmm, I don't think I purposely try to make my romantic interests feel like "one of the many." In fact, when I'm interested in someone I try to make it obvious they know. Problem is, though, that if they're so-last they probably won't understand the signals I'm waving around that seem plainly obvious to me that I'm - to put it in a way that my dysfunctional friends would say it - thirsty for that dick HAHA. I think being with an sx/sp was good for me in that sense; he taught me to be more direct about what I wanted and working around things with my little social weapons won't always work if I really want to get what I want. Perhaps this is why I'm more balanced so and sx? But at least I understand now why I'm not an sx-dom. [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] touched on it earlier - chemistry isn't as much of a priority to me as it is to actual sx-doms. Yes, chemistry is definitely important to me but for me feelings can develop and be built over time rather than an instinctual yes or no response.

Umm...some of the heaviest drinkers/partiers ever...presently and of all time throughout history haha are or have been so/sx. In my younger days I was quite close to two ENFP e7 so/sx's that I believe had booze as opposed to blood coursing through their veins. I am of the opinion that alcohol kills/deadens intensity which is why so many people drink it in order to gain access to intimacy... I'm not buying your theory mister!

Huh. I never thought about alcohol being deadening but it makes sense. I can't keep up with people who go that hard! I'm only there to talk to people when they're in a more friendly state honestly. I used to be a huge party animal but I stopped after two parties in a row that had me puking my guts out after. It made me realize I never really cared about that stuff in the first place, I just wanted to be around people when they were more open/willing to make new connections. When everyone's sober it's so hard to find people like that!

Secondary sx: "oh, there's a rain storm outside? Let's go dancing in the rain!"

Primary sx: "I hope there's a rain storm soon! I want to go out and become a part of the storm. And see what happens when one or both of us gets struck by lightening." (<-totally kidding)

HAHA

Socionics-wise, someone mentioned that I could be ESE rather than IEE. I want to play around with the idea but I always thought of myself as more of a Delta than Alpha. That and I relate more to IEE-Fi than I do to ESE-Fe/Si. But I'm interested in seeing what other people think. All these type changes coming at the same time...sx/so to so/sx, 7w6(sw8w7) to 7w6(sw6w5), 4w3 heart fix to 2w3, and now possibly IEE to ESE? Crazy times.

 

[Avocado]

I've been meaning to respond to your post for AGES but I haven't gotten around to it just out of sheer laziness. I'm sorry! You know how us ENFPs can be.



Hmm, I don't think I purposely try to make my romantic interests feel like "one of the many." In fact, when I'm interested in someone I try to make it obvious they know. Problem is, though, that if they're so-last they probably won't understand the signals I'm waving around that seem plainly obvious to me that I'm - to put it in a way that my dysfunctional friends would say it - thirsty for that dick HAHA. I think being with an sx/sp was good for me in that sense; he taught me to be more direct about what I wanted and working around things with my little social weapons won't always work if I really want to get what I want. Perhaps this is why I'm more balanced so and sx? But at least I understand now why I'm not an sx-dom. [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] touched on it earlier - chemistry isn't as much of a priority to me as it is to actual sx-doms. Yes, chemistry is definitely important to me but for me feelings can develop and be built over time rather than an instinctual yes or no response.



Huh. I never thought about alcohol being deadening but it makes sense. I can't keep up with people who go that hard! I'm only there to talk to people when they're in a more friendly state honestly. I used to be a huge party animal but I stopped after two parties in a row that had me puking my guts out after. It made me realize I never really cared about that stuff in the first place, I just wanted to be around people when they were more open/willing to make new connections. When everyone's sober it's so hard to find people like that!



HAHA

Socionics-wise, someone mentioned that I could be ESE rather than IEE. I want to play around with the idea but I always thought of myself as more of a Delta than Alpha. That and I relate more to IEE-Fi than I do to ESE-Fe/Si. But I'm interested in seeing what other people think. All these type changes coming at the same time...sx/so to so/sx, 7w6(sw8w7) to 7w6(sw6w5), 4w3 heart fix to 2w3, and now possibly IEE to ESE? Crazy times.

LOL...
Secondary Sx sounds totally like me...
"Imagine all the stories it could inspire!"