Other People's Kids

[Ivy]

As a childfree person, I feel no sympathy with parents who feel they cannot handle their children. They ought to have self-evaluated beforehand and abstained from reproducing.

If they cannot train their children not to grab at other people and such, they ought to keep them in the home at all times and not inflict them on society in general.

My son ran up to a woman in World Market the other day and grabbed at her leg. I was totally shocked because he has never done anything like that before. He's not a docile kid but he typically minds boundaries in public, at least. We ran after him and my husband grabbed him up and I apologized to her. My husband took him out right away, but we don't plan on keeping him home because he did that once. Part of training them is taking them out, but the corollary of that is watching them like hawks and preventing them from bothering others as much as possible.

Sometimes I do feel exasperated. It's not that I don't feel I can handle my children, but I do get overwhelmed at times. It's not the kind of thing you can predict before having children.

 

[Totenkindly]

I still don't see why I have to hear screeches, dodge running kids (really inconvenient when I had my leg in an imobilizer and was on crutches) and fear that some child will mistake me for a child lover and latch onto my leg

I'll be blunt: Get real.

The reality is that kids do stuff that is inconvenient.
Sometimes it's because the parents are not the greatest parents.
Sometimes it's because kids are just kids.

You were once a kid too.
You probably did some annoying stuff when you were a kid.
It didn't mean you sucked or should be kept at home, it was because you were a kid.

And even if you personally didn't ever annoy anyone, it doesn't change the fact that kids come in many shapes, sizes, tendencies, and behaviors. This is an MBTI site, for crying out loud; we should be used to the wide variation in behavior among human beings from even the same subculture. Lord knows it gets bitched about enough here, about accepting people where they're at and as who they are... and we're all supposed to be mature and thus controlling our behavior to some degree or another.

Now imagine KIDS, who can be mature for their age and STILL immature compared to grownups.

A lot of my illusions and rationalizations about kids changed when I became a parent and experienced the reality of it.

It's a real eye-opener, I think.

 

[Ivy]

But I'd like to point out one thing - children aren't small adults, but they are SMALL. It's possible that a kid mistook Whatever for his mother and grabbed her legs thinking they were his mom's. It's a long way from the floor to a toddler's mom's face and more than one kid has mistaken me for her mother.

This is what I think happened when my son ran up to the woman in the store the other day. She was a very small woman with long, dark hair, and she actually resembled my niece quite a bit who was in the store with us at the time. She had been playing alongside my kids with some toys on a shelf nearby, and she had walked away, so I think my son thought the woman he ran up to was his cousin. He actually seemed embarrassed when we swooped in and made a big deal about it.

I remember grabbing the nearest male hand in the grocery store when I was with my dad, and being absolutely mortified when my dad barked at me from the other side to let go of that man's hand.

 

[Jack Flak]

A lot of my illusions and rationalizations about kids changed when I became a parent and experienced the reality of it.

So you're saying you're biased then, and have no place to stand in a rational discussion about children. IT HURTS OH GOD IT HURTS BUT I LOVE IT

 

[miss fortune]

Why do parents throw a fit when you ask the child who's pestering you where thier parents (occasionally out of sight) are?

I wouldn't be half as annoyed if I wasn't considered rude by people for this

 

[SillyGoose]

Why do parents throw a fit when you ask the child who's pestering you where thier parents (occasionally out of sight) are?

I wouldn't be half as annoyed if I wasn't considered rude by people for this

I see what you are saying. These kids should be in their parents sight.

I'm a Mom too and I can't tell you how many times I've been struck dumb about what to do with my child when she did something in public. But the thing is, I'm RIGHT there.

We go to the playground pretty much everyday. She is only 4 so I keep her in sight the entire time. I can't tell you how many times I've seen kids her age and younger that have or come close to falling off swings, the playground set, hit other kids....the list can go on and on.

When they are asked where their parents are...half the time they are still sitting in their car

 

[Anja]

I think it's because of the natural insecurity that every parent has to face at some point when their hopes and aspirations of parenting well go askew, whatever.

As a mother I know of scarcely any insult that cuts as deep to the quick as it being implied that I didn't do a good enough job.

And the more unsure of one's self one is the more vehement of defensiveness you will raise. A hint of critical appraisal will raise most parent's hackles.

I suppose the more inept a parent actually is the louder they'll defend themselves?

_____________________________________________________________________

Once at a very large family gathering where all the men were in suits I went into the back yard where the men were, zeroed in on my "dad's" leg and grabbed it affectionately.

It was my drunken mysogynist uncle's leg! He grunted, raised it sideways and shook me off onto the grass like an animal who has shaken a flea! I was so embarrassed (and hurt.) Oopsie.

 

[miss fortune]

it seems the less ept the more angry! It's ok if the parents are there and they appologize and such for the behavior, but when they finally appear and then yell at me for giving thier child a cold look and asking "where are your parents?" after they've grasped or run into me that's just not cool- they should expect things like that when they let thier children run freely. The grociery store is NOT a park

 

[Anja]

So, what I'm sayin'? Your thoughts and attitudes toward children are acceptable. Not everyone likes the little buggers.

Perhaps it is the way you go about expressing your dislike which causes the reaction.

*Frood asks whatever to lay on his fainting couch, adjusts his glasses and then begins, "Und zo, my good vhatever. Zis business of disliking children is suspect. Ve know daht you vere vonce vone yourself, no? Ve tink dis is projection of ze most despicable sort. Haff you checked your self-imadge lately? Hmmmm. I thought zo. . ."*

Smiling here.

 

[CzeCze]

I like kids. Kids are kids. Some people find them annoying as is but I think my tolerance level is pretty high (and okay, I'm a pushover! I admit it! Blame it on my cognitive functions!), which is one reason why kids tends to like me -- I'm relatively relaxed around them and interested in what they're doing and understand they're chilrens. I do agree with Jennifer that going out in public, especially in 'family friendly' places like grocery stores and some restaurants brings you into friendly fire! LOL Goes with the territory, filed under 'loud talkers', 'pushy people', and 'people with horrible table manners'. Whatcha gonna do?

HOWEVER -- I definitely have seen really freaking annoying instances of parent/child behavior, like Heart has described. It really is more of a parent issue than child. The kids are just being kids and doing what they're taught/allowed to do.

Some parents think their children are the cutest things EVER and disrespectful and overall 'bad' behavior is considered adorable.

Sometimes I look at parents quizzically with a look that says, "Ummm...are you seeing what your kid is doing?" and they look at me with this smile like, "Yes, my child IS cute, aren't they? Thank you!" The parent seriously has NO CLUE.

Sometimes, especially in the case of young parents -- I think the behavior really IS acceptable to them. Their children are behaving just like their parents. Other times, I think parents have this bubble around them -- kinda like the 'cel. phone bubble' where they think nobody can touch them because having a child is this sacred thing.

Sure -- it's birth/creation is sacred, and yes, children ARE the future (LOL) but it doesn't mean social standards and obligations no longer apply to you.

When it comes to kids, I think a balanced approach is always best. Just like how kids need structure and discipline as well as compassion and love, kids in public shouldn't be expected to stop being kids, but parents should ALWAYS act like [responsible] parents.

 

[Tallulah]

it seems the less ept the more angry! It's ok if the parents are there and they appologize and such for the behavior, but when they finally appear and then yell at me for giving thier child a cold look and asking "where are your parents?" after they've grasped or run into me that's just not cool- they should expect things like that when they let thier children run freely. The grociery store is NOT a park

I think it's probably your manner of handling things. It's like, even as adults, we might know we screwed up, but if someone brings it to our attention in an accusatory way, we go into defensive mode. I find that if you act like you're actually concerned about the kid himself, the parent scurries up and apologizes for bothering you. A lot of times, the parent's just trying to get their shopping done, and they don't realize right away that the kid has wandered off.

What bothers me the most is when kids go RUNNING, chasing each other, through the aisles of a grocery store or the mall or even the halls at church, and parents don't say anything. There is no way that a parent can't know that that is annoying, not to mention dangerous, behavior.

 

[Anja]

Here's a perfect example of blaming the system, but then I hope you realize that as a child of the Sixties, that's the way I was wired.

Since we do live in a society which has become necessitated to dragging your children everywhere, (expensive/unreliable babysitters, time limits, consumer-oriented entertainment) if would be well for businesses to make their establishments as parent friendly as possible.

I think this could help some of the situations which come to mind.

People didn't used to take newborns into public. They rarely got babysitters and often just stayed home from adult functions to care for their children.

This is unfeasible in current culture for a number of reasons.

When I was a young mother there was no place to change a diaper except on the bathroom floor and many, many times I had to cut my shopping time short if a child had had more stimulation than he could handle.

I often wished for short-term child care in shopping malls and advocated for the same in the interests of the merchants who would benefit from a mother being able to shop at a more leisurely pace. But I think the potential for lawsuits was daunting.

I see our local mall now has a play area for children but no supervision and I've seen some pretty nasty fights among the little folks who are dumped their on their own.

I've also seen an occasional grandma-type shopper resting nearby to intercede when the pecking order stuff starts.

 

[Anja]

Tallulah, the absolute worst shoppers are the senior citizens on social security check day. They use the super markets as social outings and block the aisles chatting merrily away, happy for a little cash to spend for treats and see their friends.

Lord.

And as senile as we all get if we live long enough, I doubt that they even recognize that not everyone is in the grocery store for a brief holiday!

 

[Anja]

Damn. Face it. I just hate EVERBODY in my space!

My priorities come first allada time. Heh.

 

[Valiant]

I hate snotty, ill-mannered brats. How kids behave really says more about the parents than the kid itself. Kids can be very cute etc, but there should be a fu**ing license to get one. :steam: And it should be strict, a rough personal estimate would indicate that about 70% of all the people out there should never EVER be allowed to put something to the world. Not to be a damn fascist or anything. But it's really insane how badly suited some people are to raise the poor kids Get a bloody pet, since that is what you seem to want when you get a kid!

 

[Jeffster]

Yeah, I know. It's unreal. Of course my experiences haven't been in public places. Mine have been with friends children, in-laws and neighbors.

I am also curious why Jeffster would put up the rolf icon to the idea that people who cannot handle children shouldn't have them. It's already been established that Jeffster isn't the kind of parent being discussed. So why be defensive about the indefensible?

Shouldn't parents be expected to teach their offspring the most basic boundary respect? What's wrong with saying if they can't they need to keep those children at home until peer pressure at school alone finally forces the child into becoming more cognizant of normal human behavior?

I couldn't come up with a better response at the time, I was a bit...flummoxed? Maybe that's the word.

I don't think couples can predict the future and know exactly how their kids will be and that they will be able to "handle" everything their kids do. It's not as cut and dried as you're making it, that's mostly what I was saying.

And like Jennifer points out, there's different kinds of kids. I was re-reading some of "Please Understand Me II" and Keirsey, who has spent a career observing kids, makes some very valuable points when he discusses the difference between "cooperator" children and "utilitarian" children. The "cooperators" take less time to pick up manners, it doesn't mean they never misbehave but they respond to consequences more because either they don't want to be seen as bad (SJ) or they are emotionally hurt by punishments (NF.) Meanwhile, the "utilitarians" are slow to accept manners and rules of behavior unless they see a use for them. An NT can sometimes decide it's useful to go along with the rules in some cases, because it can benefit them to acquire results strategically. As an example, eat my vegetables because it results in getting dessert.

But the SPs, as discussed in Alicia's freedom topic, want to fight EVERYTHING. The Introverts will fight much more quietly, but still fight and rebel. And the extroverts are most likely the ones bothering whatever in the store, because they are the hardest to get to cooperate.

I'm not removing the responsibility from parents to teach rules and regulations, but the fact that you could make a statement about how your parents were able to control you (not sure if that's the word you used because I can't see that post while I'm typing this, but something like that) shows you're not considering the differences in children, and it's impossible to predict whether you're going to have a child who doesn't make battles, picks his battles, or battles EVERYTHING before you have kids.

Why do parents throw a fit when you ask the child who's pestering you where thier parents (occasionally out of sight) are?

I wouldn't be half as annoyed if I wasn't considered rude by people for this

Hey, here's one parent who doesn't consider you rude for doing that. If my son was messing with you and wouldn't quit, I'd have no problem with you kicking him in the nuts. I bet he wouldn't mess with you again.

So, yeah, to sum up, some parents just suck, but some kids aren't so easy to control and you still gotta take them out in public sometimes. Pretty much what Jennifer said, but I felt the need to blab about it anyway.

And heart, if kids are causing trouble in your home, I say you tell them to stop and if they don't, then remove them from your home. If the in-laws have a problem with it, tell them they can shove off too, because you don't have to put up with that mess. It's all well and good to say what parents should do, but sometimes they're not going to and you just have to act yourself.

Anyway, I'm not lecturing anybody, just putting my thoughts out there. Please don't take it as me trying to say people's problems with kids aren't legitimate, because I believe they are. Personally, I take steps to not allow those situations in the first place, but then it might be easier for me because I don't have in-laws and kids don't tend to approach me in stores because I probably scare them and I keep moving constantly except when I'm in the checkout line.

 

[Tallulah]

Excellent post, Jeffster.

(And I was one of those NT kids who was mostly compliant AFTER you explained to me why I was supposed to follow X rule.)

 

[Jae Rae]

It's true that people are defensive when they mess up, and it's one of saddest things when parents can't admit it.

I was at a cafe once when a woman at the counter let her 2-1/2 year old daughter walk into the patio, then head toward the street. When the kid started to leave the sidewalk, a MAN stopped the little girl from going into traffic. And what was the mother's response? "Please don't touch my daughter."

How about "thank you so much for probably saving her life." She actually stood there arguing with the guy when he tried to explain he was afraid her daughter might get hurt.

 

[heart]

Why do parents throw a fit when you ask the child who's pestering you where thier parents (occasionally out of sight) are?

I wouldn't be half as annoyed if I wasn't considered rude by people for this

Yes, that is an important part of the equation. That is wasn't so much that the children were stepping out of line, it was the parent's response to it being brought to their attention. Big difference there.

My own experience has been with parents staring right at the child while they are doing it and they are just saying nothing. And it isn't always practical to exclude people from one's life just because they let their children run wild, but at the same time yes I do very much resent being put in the position of having to nudge the parents about basic boundary type stuff and that's what I am sounding off about. I fully realize, Jeffster, that I have to speak up, that's what I am venting about. I didn't have children for a reason, I don't want to have to parent other people's children. :steam:

 

[Usehername]

Kids are kids.

You simply can't take one isolated incidence and say you know what goes on with some random kid, their parents' abilities, etc.. Too many variables.


Their brains are different and growing and forming new connections, their sleep drastically affects their behaviour (imagine getting the energy to get through the day PLUS grow your body... if they get one bad night, it shows the next day), environmental factors, stress levels of interpersonals of grown-ups they live with who don't tell them things because they're too young...

My sweetheart INFP brother, now 17 and the most perfect guy I could dream up as a brother, was a terror when he was 6 and on medication for an illness; the medication affected his behaviour. Literally, no joke, my dad had to teach me how to pin him down for my safety even though I was 5 years older.

There's nothing wrong with respectfully telling a kid what's cool/not cool, but seriously... they don't grow up in vacuums. They have to grow somewhere, just like we all did.