[NT] NT - most brutal

[Mondo]

morals? don't bring that dirty FJ word into this thread!

malfunctioned nt's get weird like that.... their talk of morals.

 

[Blackmail!]

I have read what you said Black and, my apologies, hubby is on the way home and I have to go but, would you mind considering that you may have worked so hard at that development that you've actually taken on the persona of one? I seriously do see much of what you have said on this thread as vry "F" and I don't mean to be disrespecting you. I said when I came on this group that I would never presume to type anyone and am not doing that. I just can't relate to how you're characterizing NTs and, if I recall correctly (?) INTPs, in particular. I understand they are the hardest types to determine and with good reason. Perhaps you err in thinking they actually are "narcissistic" and/or "autistic." But its statements like that that really make me wonder.

Sorry... be back later.

No offense taken.

I would rather think that you still have a lot to learn about the MBTI and how the functions work together.
Or that you are very, very self-centered, I don't know (everybody is, somehow). Again, the fact you don't understand what Fe means is normal, but do not make projections.

I have seen a professional, who has in return asked many friends how I behaved. We have also discussed a lot about my own childhood, my own teenage years, and so on. His studies were far more serious than just an very vague MBTI test you may have taken on the internet. And this professional said I was a typical ENTP.

Neither an INFP or an ENFP will usually develop a high Fe, even if they are Feelers. An ENTP can, but only as a full grow-up adult. This is what the MBTI theory says, I'm not inventing anything, I'm implementing the book to the letter. Again, read it and learn.

 

[Blackmail!]

malfunctioned nt's get weird like that.... their talk of morals.

Morals, morals???

"True morality makes fun of morality"
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

 

[Seanan]

No offense taken.

I would rather think that you still have a lot to learn about the MBTI and how the functions work together.
Or that you are very, very self-centered, I don't know (everybody is, somehow). Again, the fact you don't understand what Fe means is normal, but do not make projections.

I have seen a professional, who has in return asked many friends how I behaved. We have also discussed a lot about my own childhood, my own teenage years, and so on. His studies were far more serious than just an very vague MBTI test you may have taken on the internet. And this professional said I was a typical ENTP.

Neither an INFP or an ENFP will usually develop a high Fe, even if they are Feelers. An ENTP can, but only as a full grow-up adult. This is what the MBTI theory says, I'm not inventing anything, I'm implementing the book to the letter. Again, read it and learn.

First, you're the one projecting... not me... and I might add, you sir, are quite presumptuous.

Second, you have gone to the personal as "proof".. no comment.

Third, I've taken the professionally administered test 5 times.

Fourth, I do understand the functions and have, as you, experienced their development first-hand over my 64 years.... enough time to know the changes?

That leaves... "very, very, self-centered" but, presumptions aside, no, you can't know that.

Suffice to say, as previously stated, we're very different.

 

[miss fortune]

I know Seanan well enough to attest that she has quite excellent Fe!

and NEVER trust an NT who utters the dirty word "morals" they are probably using it to convince some poor SJ (an unintelligent one- not a sharp as a tack one like my grandfather ) to do something!

 

[cafe]

Hmm. I guess I think NTs can be brutal or not be brutal as they choose, just like everyone else. Like others have said, brutality indicates to me an intent to harm or no intent not to harm. No type has the malice market cornered.

NTs maybe are prone to be more neutral than, say, NFs. NFs can tend to be more benevolent as a default, but when they feel justified they can tend strongly towards malice. It is hot and cold, but might, if were balanced, be about the same as the neutral NT, I don't know.

An NT that isn't healthy can convince themselves that they are neutral when they are acting in malice or they can just feel like they want to be malicious and do so, just like anyone else. How they express that malice may differ from other types but every type will have their ways and proficiencies.

I think that you have to consider context when you make value judgments about interactions with others. If a person who is normally blunt says something blunt it probably isn't anything to be upset about. A person who is normal very tactful saying something blunt may mean an intent to harm or be an expression of anger. Being blunt does not equal being brutal, to me, if there is no intent to hurt.

 

[Blackmail!]

First, you're the one projecting... not me... and I might add, you sir, are quite presumptuous.

Second, you have gone to the personal as "proof".. no comment.

Third, I've taken the professionally administered test 5 times.

Fourth, I do understand the functions and have, as you, experienced their development first-hand over my 64 years.

That leaves... "very, very, self-centered" but, presumptions aside, no, you can't know that.

That does, btw, sound very "F."

It sounds like a very emotional response to me...

Again, I only made descriptions, precise descriptions, and for the second time, I'm just implementing the book to the letter.

It might be my own subjective impression, but sometimes, you sounded very vague... lot of unclear sentences, of words oddly used. Thus I infered you might not be very aware of the individuation process, or how a typical ENTP would use Fe. Was I wrong?

---

Anyway.

1) Do you consider that every NTs have an obligation to say all NTs are superior, or flawless?
2) Do you consider that an NT who would dare to criticize its peers is inevitably deemed to be an NF?
3) Do you tolerate or find normal that an NF would aspire to be an NT? -We often see that-

Why should it only work one-way?

4) Are your own presuppositions rational in every aspects?

"Nothing is so conformable to reason as to disavow reason."
(Blaise Pascal again...)

 

[Blackmail!]

I know Seanan well enough to attest that she has quite excellent Fe!

If this is true, then, I'd say it's a case of mutual incomprehension, then.

But seriously, I doubt it. INTPs are NOT supposed to develop Fe. According to theory, it's the function they use the least, they feel the most awkward with.

But anything is possible. After all, we're individuals and types are somewhat arbitrary.

---

Here, I'm a stuck between my Feeling and my Thinking.

I hear my Fe advising me "Perhaps this could be better to apologize to Seanan before she reacts too nervously. Furthermore, you genuinely like her, and making her angry would be an especially stupid outcome. INTPs often feels very insecure (especially if you question their rationality/inherent superiority), and you've already noticed they have a tendency to hold long term grudges."

But in the same time, my Ti is growling inside me, saying "she obviously knows nothing of Fe or the individuation process, or very few. The more I analyze her sentences, the more irrational I find them.
Why did she refer to an inductive reasoning, somehow? It seems to lack consistency, context."

Then my Fe corrects my Ti "If an INTP is behaving this way, she may be experiencing stress. Should I relieve her? How shall I proceed then?"

She said I'm presumptuous.

My weak Fi complains "Well, you often are presumptuous when you get stuck in debates."
My Fe helps this tiny voice: "And it's true, you know nothing of her..."
My Ti yells: "But no matter what she said, she's wrong and that's all that matters."
But suddenly, I have my dominant Ne which happens to go by (he's the king anyway) "My dear Ti, even if everything fits within logical parameters, the truth may always be elsewhere. Maybe there's a new idea to learn: We should try to ask her why she seems so convinced you're an NF?"

Fe gladly approves -it hopes to neutralize my own aggressiveness-. Ti reluctantly approves -it knows she's wrong, but it wants to know why-.

and NEVER trust an NT who utters the dirty word "morals" they are probably using it to convince some poor SJ (an unintelligent one- not a sharp as a tack one like my grandfather ) to do something!

Agreed!

 

[miss fortune]

Anyone can develop any function- this is just a theory we're talking about- for instance- I have high Se People are surprizing creatures and you're best off looking at them on a person to person basis functionwise

Sure, having some functions that don't fit be well developed doesn't fit well with the theory, but it can help you cope with real life a lot better- and there's no type that has the function set NeTiTeSe

 

[Kiddo]

Anyone can develop any function- this is just a theory we're talking about- for instance- I have high Se People are surprizing creatures and you're best off looking at them on a person to person basis functionwise

Sure, having some functions that don't fit be well developed doesn't fit well with the theory, but it can help you cope with real life a lot better- and there's no type that has the function set NeTiTeSe

Exactly. You would think someone who claims to have such an excellent understanding of MBTI theory would realize that it is just a theory and would approach it from a realistic perspective rather than using it to make presumptuous judgments about others that disregard individual differences. That kind of simplistic reasoning just makes me laugh because it is on par with racism and other forms of prejudiced thinking.

 

[mippus]

Saenan and Blackmail, is this really necessary?
This seems to become a personal, emotional, issue...

 

[alcea rosea]

That kind of simplistic reasoning just makes me laugh because it is on par with racism and other forms of prejudiced thinking.

Yes I agree. I hope MBTI wouldn't be for that (=racism and prejudiced thinking of types).

Saenan and Blackmail, is this really necessary?
This seems to become a personal, emotional, issue...

Emotional NT's......!
Peace.

 

[mippus]

"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell." —Harry S. Truman

 

[Blackmail!]

Exactly. You would think someone who claims to have such an excellent understanding of MBTI theory would realize that it is just a theory and would approach it from a realistic perspective rather than using it to make presumptuous judgments about others that disregard individual differences. That kind of simplistic reasoning just makes me laugh because it is on par with racism and other forms of prejudiced thinking.

Don't think I'm some kind of MBTI integrist who enjoys to put people in boxes.

However, I was trying to answer that:
"Amazing... now we have an NTP attempting to induce types boiling down to being the same ... oh, if they're "mature" or have worked hard enough... give me a break or just admit you don't think there is such a thing as MBtypes. "

So, if I don't fit perfectly into how some people perceive MBTI theory, I'm criticized, but if I prove I know the theory well, I'm criticized too... Grmmmbbbl... There's no way to escape, it's a trap!

I think there is a median way between integrism, and being a complete unbeliever. Am I wrong?

Anyway.
Yes I think types are somehow arbitrary, and judging people solely according to their MBTI types is quite dangerous. Besides, the MBTI was not created to discriminate people, but to improve the over-all quality of their interactions.

Nonetheless, following the theory to the letter can be interesting too because it can lead to absurd outcomes. And such outcomes always suggest new Ideas, new pathways when you have to interpret them. Basically, it's how advancements are made in modern Science.

 

[Cality]

Basically, it's how advancements are made in modern Science.

I guess, you mean in philosophy, not in science...

 

[Seanan]

Just letting all concerned know that Blackmail and I have taken it to PM. I did think some would be interested in the "maturing" of Fe in an INTP .. which began for me around 45/50.. especially as it pertains to the OP but we will discuss this privately. Sorry for any perceived derailing.

 

[Kiddo]

Nonetheless, following the theory to the letter can be interesting too because it can lead to absurd outcomes. And such outcomes always suggest new Ideas, new pathways when you have to interpret them. Basically, it's how advancements are made in modern Science.

Advancements in science are made through methodology and measurement. There is no method in making arbitrary judgments, and you certainly can't measure the outcomes. At best, you are making intuitive leaps, which is as Cality suggested, simply an exploration of a philosophy.

 

[Blackmail!]

Sorry for any perceived derailing.

I'll join Seanan on this: Sorry for any perceived derailing

(Yes, I may have been a little presumptuous)

 

[proteanmix]

If this is true, then, I'd say it's a case of mutual incomprehension, then.

But seriously, I doubt it. INTPs are NOT supposed to develop Fe. According to theory, it's the function they use the least, they feel the most awkward with.

But anything is possible. After all, we're individuals and types are somewhat arbitrary.

---

Here, I'm a stuck between my Feeling and my Thinking.

I hear my Fe advising me "Perhaps this could be better to apologize to Seanan before she reacts too nervously. Furthermore, you genuinely like her, and making her angry would be an especially stupid outcome. INTPs often feels very insecure (especially if you question their rationality/inherent superiority), and you've already noticed they have a tendency to hold long term grudges."

But in the same time, my Ti is growling inside me, saying "she obviously knows nothing of Fe or the individuation process, or very few. The more I analyze her sentences, the more irrational I find them.
Why did she refer to an inductive reasoning, somehow? It seems to lack consistency, context."

Then my Fe corrects my Ti "If an INTP is behaving this way, she may be experiencing stress. Should I relieve her? How shall I proceed then?"

She said I'm presumptuous.

My weak Fi complains "Well, you often are presumptuous when you get stuck in debates."
My Fe helps this tiny voice: "And it's true, you know nothing of her..."
My Ti yells: "But no matter what she said, she's wrong and that's all that matters."
But suddenly, I have my dominant Ne which happens to go by (he's the king anyway) "My dear Ti, even if everything fits within logical parameters, the truth may always be elsewhere. Maybe there's a new idea to learn: We should try to ask her why she seems so convinced you're an NF?"

Fe gladly approves -it hopes to neutralize my own aggressiveness-. Ti reluctantly approves -it knows she's wrong, but it wants to know why-.



Agreed!

That's a beautiful Fe conversation! And you've illustrated how wonderfully function pairs work together. My Fe-Se works together, not my Fe-Ni. Ni works with Ti. Your Ne-Fe cooperate, while Ti-Si double up. Individuation is something we all should work to attain as far as cognitive processes are concerned, but it's not talked about much. Thanks for bringing it up.

 

[Badlands]

I personally have no problem using Fe, but overall I use it in a logical way. I have an Idealist mother and sister, and sometimes being calm won't stop them, so I have to become emotional to make them understand that I'm not willing to compromise or cave in on something.