Ne and Ni

[skylights]

Yes, great stuff Skylights. Far better clearing things.

only built upon your clarity, so thank you

 

[Lady_X]

love it sky...beautiful translation

 

[INTP]

Barely anyone who enters the thread will read it. Be slightly more tactful and summarise to allow those who do not understand to understand things in a more 'for dummies' way.

its their problem if they wont read it. if they read it, but are not interested of understanding it, then they dont want to understand it hard enough.

 

[Anew Leaf]

its their problem if they wont read it. if they read it, but are not interested of understanding it, then they dont want to understand it hard enough.

I simply don't have time or patience for a giant wall of text that can be better explained in 20 words or less. Distilled down versions give me a better snapshot than a bunch of self important words being tossed in the air.

I thank Oaky and Sky for giving me the "Ne-Ni for Dummies" lesson I sorely needed.

 

[INTPness]

Maybe something like this?

 

[onemoretime]

Barely anyone who enters the thread will read it. Be slightly more tactful and summarise to allow those who do not understand to understand things in a more 'for dummies' way.


Most have Ne down correctly.
But as for Ni...
Ni is not: "poof" an idea, which appears out of nowhere.

It is the analysis of the object within different dimensions to be able to see what the object may or may not be.

Let us take an object:

Humans:

- Homosapiens
- Molecules
- Moving objects
- Assembly of organs
- Tools of war

All such thoughts are what humans could be. Note: Every thought is connected to the object.

Cartoon:

- Lines and colours
- Light
- Pleasing sensory perceptions
- Distorted beings
- Many pictures
- Surrealism

All the such thoughts are what cartoons are, in different perceptions. Again, every thought is connected to the object. Not move on tangents as Ne tends to do.

Interesting. This makes Ni much more comprehensible, and indeed, much more like Ne as I experience it, compared to other descriptions.

Ne takes an object and explores all the possibilities available within a static category. Ni explores meaningfulness of relation within the interaction of static points of data.

Ne wants to take an object and fulfill its potential within specific, appropriate categories. This is why, even though it seems random to others, the person engaging Ne generally can explain how topic A reached tangent Z. Ni, on the other hand, wants to take that object and understand something about it that isn't immediately apparent, not to satisfy any purpose, but for its own sake.

it seems like Ne and Ni move opposite. i've heard all the functions + attitudes described as "conveyor belts" which can be switched clockwise/counterclockwise before, and i can see this on an "N" belt.

Ne, clearly, moves outward. you start at one point and look out into all the things it could be.

Ni, as oaky has demonstrated, moves inward. it takes all the points and finds the least common denominator.

Not sure I'm 100% with you on this one. Both Ne and Ni are concerned with an object's essential nature. Ne, though, seeks to grasp everything that the object's essential nature says about the object itself, i.e. its "possibilities." Ni, on the other hand, seeks to grasp everything that the object itself says about its essential nature.

they both share the philosophy that all things are, in essence, one thing. for Ne, one thing can become many things. for Ni, many things are, when distilled, one thing.

I wouldn't necessarily say that it's "all things are, in essence, one thing." I'd say that the unifying principle is that an object's essential nature transcends what is immediately perceptible. For Ne, that essential nature means that one thing doesn't so much become many things, as it already is many other things. For Ni, the slightest details can radically alter what an object's essential nature is, and thus fundamentally shift its relationship with other things in the world.

what is also significant is how they rest on their partner functions - Se and Si - as i believe orobas has already touched upon. Ne needs the concrete detail of Si to anchor it in space, so that it can look around it and consider all of the possibilities that exist at that singular moment. it negates time as a factor, essentially. Ni needs the concrete detail of Se to anchor it in time, so that it can look around it at that singular location. it negates space as a factor. Ne is a coronal section while Ni is a sagittal section.

Si anchors Ne by providing categories. Without those categories, there is no way of knowing what data point A already needs. Se anchors Ni by paying attention to detail. Without that detail, there is no way to understand the essential distinction between things, and thus no way to determine the true essence.

Ne appears more "random" to us in the present moment because of the negation of time. all those possibilities can exist, but they are not necessarily pertinent when we consider practicality and probability, and change over time. whereas Ni can seem "out of nowhere", because of the negation of what i'm calling "space"... i don't really know how to describe it, but i essentially mean "headspace" - room for expansion. room for differentiation. while Ni may well be correct in its distillations, they might not be pertinent to the present moment - yet. in other words, it may still be more useful to see the particle as a particle instead of a wave-particle, because it's still behaving like a particle in this particular situation.

Ne only seems random because other people can't see the categories in play. The category may be valid, but it may also be of little relevance to the immediate reality.
Ni only seems spacey because other people can't see the importance of the essential understanding. The understanding may be true, but of little practical use.

 

[cascadeco]

Well, yeah, Ni is about focusing/honing in on something. Sticking to an idea, building upon it, taking other seemingly unrelated (but related) things to build upon that same idea. Not branching out into multiple ideas. It's always honing inwards and focusing on something, and sticking to that - aiming to grasp that 'one thing'/'truth' relevant to the situation at hand. Wanting that closure/resolution/finality/'answer' to that thing.

Anyway, I think this is my all-time favorite Ni thread on the forums... http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-tm-other-personality-matrices/36241-ni-what-hell.html

 

[skylights]

Maybe something like this?

perfect!!

and thank you saturned... admittedly half my "explanations" are me trying to explain things to myself

but INTPness' diagram - makes it easy to see why Ne doms are Ps and Ni doms are Js, no? Ne doms inherently move away from closure, whereas Ni doms move towards it.

 

[Lady_X]

Maybe something like this?

omg that's perfect. see...no words necessary explanation...love it.

 

[INTPness]

perfect!!

and thank you saturned... admittedly half my "explanations" are me trying to explain things to myself

but INTPness' diagram - makes it easy to see why Ne doms are Ps and Ni doms are Js, no? Ne doms inherently move away from closure, whereas Ni doms move towards it.

Yeah, helps me understand why INTJ's are so driven and focused and don't tolerate much goofing around outside of the things they are focused on. Whereas, Ne users want to goof around and explore all the time - always new things, new things, new things.

 

[skylights]

Ne, though, seeks to grasp everything that the object's essential nature says about the object itself, i.e. its "possibilities." Ni, on the other hand, seeks to grasp everything that the object itself says about its essential nature.

i'm not sure i understand how what you are saying is different from what i am saying?

what is the difference between the object and its essential nature? is its essential nature not the object itself?

it would seem that the object and the essential nature are always the same. just like you can't ever not "be yourself", even though people like to say "be yourself". you are always being yourself.

Si anchors Ne by providing categories. Without those categories, there is no way of knowing what data point A already needs. Se anchors Ni by paying attention to detail. Without that detail, there is no way to understand the essential distinction between things, and thus no way to determine the true essence.

what data point A needs? i am not sure what you mean. as in what is needed to make it "whole"?

it seems to me that Se data points indicate endings and beginnings for Ni to work with. time spans. processes. becomings. is this what you mean?

i think mostly i am confused by the differentiation of an object and its "essence".

 

[Anew Leaf]

perfect!!

and thank you saturned... admittedly half my "explanations" are me trying to explain things to myself

but INTPness' diagram - makes it easy to see why Ne doms are Ps and Ni doms are Js, no? Ne doms inherently move away from closure, whereas Ni doms move towards it.

skylights.

Visual Aids = so much win!

And it does explain why the Ne dom/aux people are P's and why Ni dom/aux is J.

*passes out ribbons to all participants* Everyone did extremely well in this thread, but some did more well than others. *pins shiny pink glitter bow onto Skylights*

 

[skylights]

Well, yeah, Ni is about focusing/honing in on something. Sticking to an idea, building upon it, taking other seemingly unrelated (but related) things to build upon that same idea. Not branching out into multiple ideas. It's always honing inwards and focusing on something, and sticking to that - aiming to grasp that 'one thing'/'truth' relevant to the situation at hand. Wanting that closure/resolution/finality/'answer' to that thing.

Anyway, I think this is my all-time favorite Ni thread on the forums... http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-tm-other-personality-matrices/36241-ni-what-hell.html

any chance you could pull a few really good posts out of that? 35 pages... so... much... information o_____o

 

[cascadeco]

Yeah, helps me understand why INTJ's are so driven and focused and don't tolerate much goofing around outside of the things they are focused on. Whereas, Ne users want to goof around and explore all the time - always new things, new things, new things.

Well, yeah... I think NJ's in general want there to a 'point'/end-goal/focus to discussion, since we're naturally more driven to closure and wanting to hone in on one topic and discuss/explore in depth. Reaching clarity/understanding on that one theme.

 

[cascadeco]

any chance you could pull a few really good posts out of that? 35 pages... so... much... information o_____o

hehe... the problem is that I find TONS of posts in that thread brilliant - it's a thread full of Ni-doms discussing all of the nuances/facets of Ni in depth; I'm not sure which facet would be most helpful to anyone here! The thread in its entirety is epic and the posts add meaning and understanding atop each other; isolate one and you don't grasp the entirety. (Perhaps that's indicative too of Ni. It's why Ni-er's might seem voodoo/'poof' -- it's much simpler to state one or two vague summary sentences than 35+ pages that explains all of the nuances of it). :Focus:

 

[INTPness]

Well, yeah, Ni is about focusing/honing in on something. Sticking to an idea, building upon it, taking other seemingly unrelated (but related) things to build upon that same idea. Not branching out into multiple ideas. It's always honing inwards and focusing on something, and sticking to that - aiming to grasp that 'one thing'/'truth' relevant to the situation at hand. Wanting that closure/resolution/finality/'answer' to that thing.

Anyway, I think this is my all-time favorite Ni thread on the forums... http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-tm-other-personality-matrices/36241-ni-what-hell.html

Very interesting. So, what do you do once you find 'the answer' - once the problem at hand is resolved. Like, I work with INTJ scientists. They spend their whole lives working towards cures, answers, discoveries to very specific problems. What happens if they find the answer or finally solve the problem. Is it "mission accomplished - time to retire"? Or is it just simply, "move on to another problem"? Cuz, for instance, one of them truly believes that understanding one small bodily protein will unlock huge mysteries of the human body and health. He dedicates his entire existence to understanding this one object because he *knows* how important it is to overall human health. If he does make *the big discovery*, what would he do next? Just bask in his glory as a well-respected scientist? Or would he then "take up a new agenda"?

 

[skylights]

^ maybe it's just me but i have a lingering belief that there is one underlying truth that explains everything in existence. it's just, as Ne dom, i seek it by trying to find everything. the more i find, the more i know. the more i know, the closer i am to understanding the One. perhaps that is essentially what he seeks also.

and of course, if the One was discovered, the rules of everything would be changed. all would be illuminated.

It's why Ni-er's might seem voodoo/'poof' -- it's much simpler to state one or two vague summary sentences than 35+ pages that explains all of the nuances of it

yeah, that's kind of my problem with the Ni threads. i don't get what anyone's saying half the time. it took me until reading orobas' explanation of Ni - maybe a few months after first reading about Ni? - to finally start grasping it.

*will try to focus for once*

 

[cascadeco]

Very interesting. So, what do you do once you find 'the answer' - once the problem at hand is resolved. Like, I work with INTJ scientists. They spend their whole lives working towards cures, answers, discoveries to very specific problems. What happens if they find the answer or finally solve the problem. Is it "mission accomplished - time to retire"? Or is it just simply, "move on to another problem"? Cuz, for instance, one of them truly believes that understanding one small bodily protein will unlock huge mysteries of the human body and health. He dedicates his entire existence to understanding this one object because he *knows* how important it is to overall human health. If he does make *the big discovery*, what would he do next? Just bask in his glory as a well-respected scientist? Or would he then "take up a new agenda"?

I don't really know what he'd do. The nature of some problems are such that it could/would take a lifetime to learn, or else it might never be possible to reach full resolution.

He'd probably move onto another project after basking for a bit? lol. Or maybe by that point could bask in his inferior-Se-ness for good since he accomplished his life work. I doubt though he'd bask... I think NJ's need things to move towards & accomplish; not good at kicking back.

Anyway, in that thread it was discussed also that the whole 'Discovery' process is both exhilarating -- keeps you going, and keeps mental juices flowing and alive and excited because things are still a bit of a mystery and unesolved -- but also depending on the problem at hand, anxiety-provoking simply because we DO want that answer/closure. Once closure is reached, yeah, there might be a momentary lull where it's like, 'Now what?', but typically in life there are soon other things brewing and situations to figure out.

 

[INTPness]

I don't really know what he'd do. The nature of some problems are such that it could/would take a lifetime to learn, or else it might never be possible to reach full resolution.

He'd probably move onto another project after basking for a bit? lol. Or maybe by that point could bask in his inferior-Se-ness for good since he accomplished his life work.

Anyway, in that thread it was discussed also that the whole 'Discovery' process is both exhilarating -- keeps you going, and keeps mental juices flowing and alive and excited because things are still a bit of a mystery and unesolved -- but also depending on the problem at hand, anxiety-provoking simply because we DO want that answer/closure. Once closure is reached, yeah, there might be a momentary lull where it's like, 'Now what?', but typically in life there are soon other things brewing and situations to figure out.

Ah, i see. This might also explain where I've seen INFJ's say, "I loved getting to know my husband. He was so intriguing and mysterious. And he's great guy and I'm really lucky to have him, but now that I know everything about him, I sometimes get bored and feel unsatisfied." Ahaaa!!!! I'm on to you guys now!!

 

[cascadeco]

Ah, i see. This might also explain where I've seen INFJ's say, "I loved getting to know my husband. He was so intriguing and mysterious. And he's great guy and I'm really lucky to have him, but now that I know everything about him, I sometimes get bored and feel unsatisfied." Ahaaa!!!! I'm on to you guys now!!

I have always been kind of worried about really longterm relationships for this very reason. I like to think/hope/believe that I would be ok and satisfied and the relationship would just keep evolving/growing, but sometimes I do worry.