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Morals and Ethics

Morality is

  • Controlling behavior

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • Having good goals, independent of behavior

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • Something else

    Votes: 10 76.9%

  • Total voters
    13

SearchingforPeace

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Some would say a person trying controlling their baser instincts to lie, cheat, steal, hurt or kill others is following a moral code.

Others would say a person with good goals is moral and ethical, no matter their lack of desire to control their baser instincts.

What do you say?

If you see a different basis for morality and ethics, please share.
 

Poki

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To me ethics is a set standard of rules designed for the greater good of people that we follow. Like guidlines.

Morals are more of a long term internal beliefs followed on a more black and white nature.

I personally tie good/bad to ethical...morals is not quite as much tied to good/bad as ethics is as much as the persons values and actions.
 

Lord Lavender

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To me morality is more self based (Basically Fi). Everyone has a code of morality but it may or may not fit the ethical code outside. Ethics is more Fe to me (Externalized morals). While the two can often overlap quite often they do differ slightly. Thinking about it ethics is not about good or bad but more of a "philosophy" if you wish. Communist ethics, racist ethics and so on are things most people would consider "evil" but the are still codes of ethics although not nice ones.
 

erg

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To me morality is more self based (Basically Fi). Everyone has a code of morality but it may or may not fit the ethical code outside. Ethics is more Fe to me (Externalized morals). While the two can often overlap quite often they do differ slightly. Thinking about it ethics is not about good or bad but more of a "philosophy" if you wish. Communist ethics, racist ethics and so on are things most people would consider "evil" but the are still codes of ethics although not nice ones.

I actually understand them the other way around. Morality has a social aspect to it, while ethics are more inmanent (usually deriving from the golden rule).
 

Kas

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Morality are the norms about what is right and what is wrong- internal and external (not always same). Ethics is a study of from where the morality comes , studying and creating the systems which may be basis for morality.

Adjective moral is in my language more used to describe person who acts correctly due to social moral standards and ethical more a person who is acting to do the right thing; so more due to personal code. (but not sure how much language matters there)


I was thinking recently about what you ask about. A painter I like once said that he always dreamt of raping a woman. Of course he never done it, because he found violence repulsive, but it was always his desire. He said that everyone has a dark side and it's nothing wrong as long as the person doesn't follow it.
Now the tricky part is that moral social code sometimes finds ideas themselves wrong. It doesn't seem okay to most of us if someone feels like hurting the others.
In my opinion the choice is the most important part, what we choose defines us. Still I had mixed feelings about what he said because he never said that he found it wrong, he found it repulsive. I think there is a difference. It's too much of 'I can't stab him with knife, because I'm grossed with blood'. It seems to me different (better?) if person is tempted to do the wrong thing, but finds it morally wrong and controls their behaviour.

In second case, it depends. I don't thing that good intentions completely justify doing wrong thing. How many times people were hurting others believing they acting for a good cause. But we can act only according to our best knowledge and judgement in the moment, sometimes we don't completely understand the situation then.

In the end I don't think that I can find it possible to analyze out of particular situations (according to my personal moral values)
 

ChocolateMoose123

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Some would say a person trying controlling their baser instincts to lie, cheat, steal, hurt or kill others is following a moral code.

Others would say a person with good goals is moral and ethical, no matter their lack of desire to control their baser instincts.

What do you say?

If you see a different basis for morality and ethics, please share.

Morality is behavior or a choice that is deemed right or wrong. It's values and principles.

Ethics are rules that guide correct behavior.

(The consequences of said ethics may be morally wrong or right depending upon individual morality)

They overlap and work together but they are not the same.

A lawyer represents a rapist knowing they are guilty. This can be morally objectionable to some but to others be morally unobjectionable.

Still, regardless, that representation of the rapist is ethical whether the guilt or innocence is known.

If the lawyer quits that representation because of the knowledge of guilt? That is a decision based on morality. It is not an ethical decision but a moral one.

If the lawyer is disgusted but still represents the rapist. The lawyer can believe the action to be wrong (morality) but lawyer would still be acting ethically in the representation.

Same with the soldier (Martland?) who physically assaulted Afgan leader for raping boys. He made a morality based choice when he decided to confront the leader.

This caused him to be disciplined by the military. Where the correct behavior of a soldier (ethics) is to prioritize or not jeopardize their main mission. To follow orders. He did not act ethically.
 

geedoenfj

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I don't believe a basic instinct of any human being contains cheating and stealing and hurting and all of that, I believe the basic instinct of people is protecting their interests, they might do these things when they think they will be benefited in some way or another.
I believe each person has a basic sense of morality, even though doing the right thing might seem illogical at times and goes against our basic instincts of protecting ourselves, but I believe deep down, under all of excuses that some people would give themselves for not acting upon this sense of morality, they do know what is wrong and what is right to do.
I'm not sure I got the "Good goals" part, and how reaching a "Good goal" is done by acting upon our basic instincts which according to your post is lie and cheat etc. a true moral person would not do awful things to reach good goals, unless you are referring to wars and battles, even those have certain ethnics and that should be followed..
Morals are set of principles that guide someone's ethics, ethics are personal behavior guided by those morals, just as simple as that
 

SearchingforPeace

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Morality is behavior or a choice that is deemed right or wrong. It's values and principles.

Ethics are rules that guide correct behavior.

(The consequences of said ethical choice may be morally wrong or right depending upon individual morality)

They overlap and work together but they are not the same.

A lawyer represents a rapist knowing they are guilty. This can be morally objectionable to some but to others be morally unobjectionable.

Still, regardless, that representation of the rapist is ethical whether the guilt or innocence is known.

If the lawyer quits that representation because of the knowledge of guilt? That is a decision based on morality. It is not an ethical decision but a moral one.

If the lawyer is disgusted but still represents the rapist. The lawyer can believe the action to be wrong (morality) but lawyer would still be acting ethically in the representation.

Same with the soldier (Martland?) who physically assaulted Afgan leader for raping boys. He made a moral choice when he decided to confront the leader.

This caused him to be disciplined by the military. Where the correct behavior (ethics) of a soldier is to prioritize or not jeopardize their main mission. To follow orders. He did not act ethically.

I would argue the soldier acted morally and ethically. In no world where I live is raping little children acceptable.

If so-called allies are engaging in such, then the moral and ethical thing is to stop it, even if it takes a bullet. Somethings are just wrong.

And it was symbolic of who messed up our nation-building efforts are in Afghanistan. If accepting pedasatry is the price of working with these people, I want nothing to do with them.

It is a great example of why the ends do not justify the means. Having a "good" goal of a democratic Afghanistan (and I don't agree with that mission) does not justify accepting child rape.

Again the soldier was moral and ethical in that situation. The officers who knowingly allowed that barbarism to continue should be locked up in the stockade. And any civilian officials who knowingly let it continue should be locked up as well.

Morality and ethics go hand in hand.

As to the morality and ethics of criminal defense attorneys, it is their responsibilty to ensure the rules of justice are maintained, to protect the rights of everyone. They defend the process by vigorously representing their clients. To almost every one of them I know, the actual guilt or innocence of their clients is immaterial, as it is the job of the prosecution to establish such. They see themselves as defenders of the rights of the country by perserving due process.
 

ceecee

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Morals are internal and define right and wrong. Fairness and what is right is important and people who realize that their morals only govern themselves usually get this easily. My morals aren't influenced heavily by anyone, although, I know that's not the case for others so I keep it in mind. I don't take a moral position just because. It has to make sense.

Ethics are external and define the conduct of the culture. This is where problems almost always arise because of variables. This is also where I am more willing to look at intent. A person can be ethical and be the most amoral human ever. It all comes down to what their bubble of society, whatever that is, deems acceptable and people work within that. Not that they have nefarious purposes, necessarily but ethics and society differ from place to place so it can't be a blanket thing that doesn't change, like morals.

The good goals thing - no I don't buy that. How many people have we seen involved in a church or working with kids and end up being a predator? They had a good goal - they wanted to serve God or help kids, right? No, they wanted access to a buffet of sexual possibilities.

If a person killed someone in defense of their child or family, is that a bad goal? Is it immoral? I don't think so. Is it unethical? Probably and that's why there are laws to help make this distinction. Or we'd be right back to burning at the stake or beheading or purification by pain.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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I would argue the soldier acted morally and ethically. In no world where I live is raping little children acceptable.

You are conflating morals and ethics. They aren't the same thing.

If so-called allies are engaging in such, then the moral and ethical thing is to stop it, even if it takes a bullet. Somethings are just wrong.

That would be the moral thing to do. It's not necessarily in line with the ethical thing.

I'm not sure you can separate right/wrong with ethics in your mind.

Let me give another hypothetical using the same soldier situation with one (major) difference.

Soldier was given directive from higher up to kill this Afgan leader because he is raping boys. Solider kills Afgan leader. Soldier acted ethically. Soldier also happens to think killing anyone who rapes boys is "right". In this situation morals and ethics align.

If the soldier became a pacifist he would not kill out of a moral choice (right/wrong) even though killing within the bounds of war is ethically sound. (to make matters more complex military has "rules of engagement" where killing is or is not ethically sound). Tricky. No doubt.

There are differences here, even though there is overlap.


This is why ethics AND morality are needed.


Morality and ethics go hand in hand.

Yes but they aren't the same thing.
 
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"Morality" implies good/bad as an intrinsic property and is a primitive version of "you did this and hurt me so you're a 'bad' person". I don't think much about morality in general because IMHO it's overly simplistic in its description of people and not particularly useful.

I don't really consider universal ethics either. It can't be discussed independent of cultural context. For e.g. it's perfectly ethical in traditional Chinese culture to hit your kids to within an inch of their lives, and it's not in modern Western cultures. For female genital mutilation, the cultures that practice it also believe that it's necessary and keeps the girl "pure". Same with religions that practice circumcision. Our ideas of "morals" and "ethics" are simply what we have been exposed to as being "acceptable" and an amalgamation of every type of idea that we've integrated as being "normal" behaviour.

Ethics are also frequently defined as a set of rules that govern behaviour and actions. If it's external rules it's called the law and has punitive consequences. If it's internal rules, personal values are ranked in a certain order set up the boundaries of what we will/will not do. Which value is more important to us determines which ethical rule we are less likely to break.

People make different ethical decisions based on the circumstances surrounding them. We are also socialised to subconsciously obey authority structures or to conform and can easily be primed into making one judgment or another. I don't believe that anyone acts consistently even with the same type of decision in different scenarios, there are too many other factors that we consider at the same time. When in a real dilemma, such situations always feel to be "the exception" where you choose the "least of the 2 evils" and then add on some post hoc justification, lying to yourself to preserve a self-concept of personal morality. i.e. "I'm not a 'bad' person, it's because of x y z considerations etc."

Very few of us are consistent, even if we state that behaviour is most important, or intentions, or whether something is socially or personally acceptable. These factors are weighed together internally and subconsciously, and then we either act or we don't. Most don't even think about their actions in depth. There's a link here that describes 3 main frameworks that are often used in making ethical decisions: https://www.brown.edu/academics/science-and-technology-studies/framework-making-ethical-decisions It's kind of described in isolation though. Integrating it with what we know about human psychology (above), the most use that we can get out of it is by trying to be more aware of our considerations/tendencies and by being very deliberate with our choices. Another consideration is the myth of perfect knowledge. No matter our intentions, often, there are other factors that we can't see which dictates outcome.

There are also situations where something can be morally wrong but which I'd judge to be ethically correct, e.g. supporting a stable, oppressive dictatorship that kills off thousands of proponents of democracy, because the alternative is years of civil war and even more death/destruction. We've seen both sides of this dilemma.
 

SearchingforPeace

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You are conflating morals and ethics. They aren't the same thing.



That would be the moral thing to do. It's not necessarily in line with the ethical thing.

I'm not sure you can separate right/wrong with ethics in your mind.

Let me give another hypothetical using the same soldier situation with one (major) difference.

Soldier was given directive from higher up to kill this Afgan leader because he is raping boys. Solider kills Afgan leader. Soldier acted ethically. Soldier also happens to think killing anyone who rapes boys is "right". In this situation morals and ethics align.

If the soldier became a pacifist he would not kill out of a moral choice (right/wrong) even though killing within the bounds of war is ethically sound. (to make matters more complex military has "rules of engagement" where killing is or is not ethically sound). Tricky. No doubt.

There are differences here, even though there is overlap.


This is why ethics AND morality are needed.




Yes but they aren't the same thing.

Again, I disagree. Ethics is not just obeying orders. It is acting in accordance to one's personal morality.

eth·ics
ˈeTHiks
noun

1. moral principles that govern a person's or group's behavior.
"Judeo-Christian ethics"
synonyms: moral code, morals, morality, values, rights and wrongs, principles, ideals, standards (of behavior), value system, virtues, dictates of conscience
"your so-called newspaper is clearly not burdened by a sense of ethics"

2. the branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles.

There is no separation. Instead, it appears from reading this thread, it seems as though some people are afraid of morals and morality and instead want to only deal with "ethics", when in fact they are the same.

When it seems as though one's ethics are different from one's morals, then the person should take a long hard look at themself.
 

Obfuscate

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ethics concerns what we can agree is right and wrong... morality is what an individual knows to be right or wrong... an ethical person acts upon ethical convictions and a moral person acts upon moral convictions... sometimes these two things conflict, and one must make a choice between being moral and ethical (or perhaps ignoring both)... there is a quote from little britches regarding morality that i would like to share (and another concerning dishonesty that is only loosely related i will put in spoilers)... both are times when ralph moody's father was speaking to him...

“A man's character is like his house. If he tears boards off his house and burns them to keep himself warm and comfortable, his house soon becomes a ruin. If he tells lies to be able to do the things he shouldn't do but wants to, his character will soon become a ruin. A man with a ruined character is a shame on the face of the earth.”



while a person can have a good understanding of morals/ethics, that understanding means very little if it isn't acted upon...
 

ceecee

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Again, I disagree. Ethics is not just obeying orders. It is acting in accordance to one's personal morality.

No it's not. I'm betting there are plenty of government employees who have to figure out a way to align their morality with the ethics of the president elect, which they have to work under. Don't want to, wish they didn't have to but need their jobs, hence the quandary. If morals and ethics were the same thing - they'd be quitting that job like yesterday and figuring out what to do later.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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Again, I disagree. Ethics is not just obeying orders. It is acting in accordance to one's personal morality.



There is no separation. Instead, it appears from reading this thread, it seems as though some people are afraid of morals and morality and instead want to only deal with "ethics", when in fact they are the same.

When it seems as though one's ethics are different from one's morals, then the person should take a long hard look at themself.

Gotta love ENFJ sanctimony. ;)

You're incorrect. It isn't the same.

But I see what you're getting at but you're still incorrect.

You are saying when something is moral it's default ethical (or vice versa) and that is not accurate.

When morality and ethics align there are consequences of intent and action (to use your preferred worldview). The consequences that arise from moral and ethical stances taken, even if both are aligned in a decision (more importantly even if they aren't) does not mean the action resulting cannot be judged on a basis of morality alone. It can. Nor does it mean it cannot be judged on a basis of ethics alone. It can. It's why they are different but related.

The consequences that arise, often shape our individual moral choices and then we adjust and scrutinize ethics and in turn, morality gets put under scrutiny and adjusted.

The goal posts are moving here. (And not always directly in synch or parallel to each other). Always on both sides. They play off each other.
 

Polaris

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For myself and others, being moral means following the dictates of my conscience. The dictates of my conscience are, of course, somewhat dynamic and situational. Ethical, on the other hand, means having to do with moral principles, and is a far less interesting thing to talk about.
 

SearchingforPeace

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No it's not. I'm betting there are plenty of government employees who have to figure out a way to align their morality with the ethics of the president elect, which they have to work under. Don't want to, wish they didn't have to but need their jobs, hence the quandary. If morals and ethics were the same thing - they'd be quitting that job like yesterday and figuring out what to do later.

Again, I disagree. If one views employment situation as either immoral or unethical, then that person should quit. It is the moral and ethical thing to do.

I quit a job for that very reason, as it was so beyond the bounds of my acceptable morals and ethics to continue working there, no matter the pay and no matter that I personally could stay away from the immoral and unethical behavior.

If anyone in the federal government feels that working for the United States of America during the Donald Trump administration is an unethical thing to do, then they really need to resign effective January 20th, 2017. I suspect there were many people who left the employment of federal government during the Obama administration for similar reasons.

Others might realize that they are employees of the United States government, not Donald Trump, and want to continue on working on behalf of their country, no matter the president.
 

ceecee

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Again, I disagree. If one views employment situation as either immoral or unethical, then that person should quit. It is the moral and ethical thing to do.

I quit a job for that very reason, as it was so beyond the bounds of my acceptable morals and ethics to continue working there, no matter the pay and no matter that I personally could stay away from the immoral and unethical behavior.

If anyone in the federal government feels that working for the United States of America during the Donald Trump administration is an unethical thing to do, then they really need to resign effective January 20th, 2017. I suspect there were many people who left the employment of federal government during the Obama administration for similar reasons.

Others might realize that they are employees of the United States government, not Donald Trump, and want to continue on working on behalf of their country, no matter the president.

That's YOU. Not them. Because morals are abstract, subjective, personal. Ethics are practical, shared principals of fairness. They're not interchangeable, they never have been, except for you.
 

Poki

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That's YOU. Not them. Because morals are abstract, subjective, personal. Ethics are practical, shared principals of fairness. They're not interchangeable, they never have been, except for you.

Wouldnt dom Fe be more likely to assign ethical to their morals and just due to that nature be unable to seperate them much?
 

ceecee

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Wouldnt dom Fe be more likely to assign ethical to their morals and just due to that nature be unable to seperate them much?


Yes (although that's not the case for all of them) and that's not the issue. The issue is that they can't or won't acknowledge that it's not the same for others and those people get the lack of a moral compass projection from the Fe doms (some, not all).
 
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