MBTI functions in action, within politics.

[Vendrah]

You mean what do I see as lots of Ti? I am trying to understand what you are asking me.

Ti to me, tends to lean more towards subjective "common sense" arguments, where data is drawn from both Ne (expansive) and Si (precedence) type observations. For example, a Ti dom is more likely to compare and contrast what has happened before, and all similar uses of action in question. While a Te type just draw conclusions based on what is happening in front of everyone, that is objective (at face value). Ti is more big picture, than Te. Te is more objective than Ti. I feel they can balance each other well, if done correctly.

In terms of Te ignoring facts/data, they are more likely to ignore competing data. Lets say there are two sets of data, one with lots of support. One will little. Te will 100% of the time support the one with lots of support, even if it turns out to be wrong. Since data sometimes requires subjective interpretation and self-understanding to make sense as a whole. Te fails to understand the entire big picture, to save time.

You answered what I had asked (you should remember that Ti is also about internal consistency); your answer of Te ignoring facts/data was okish but a little bit limited. Although you did overcome my question "when Te ignores data and facts?" with "when the data is contradictory with lots of others data and facts", which was a good answer, it is not the wide answer I was expecting. So, I might even re-phrase as "When Te ignores all or most datas and facts?" just so perhaps someone can show me with the general answer. I will wait to see if somebody else got the straight answer. If they don't, tomorrow or the other day I will state the answer and my answer to the thread.

EDIT: "Lets say there are two sets of data, one with lots of support. One will little. Te will 100% of the time support the one with lots of support, even if it turns out to be wrong." - that statement is actually wrong in conceptual 'core' Te terms, I will bring why later - or perhaps somebody will answer my question and indirectly answer why.

 

[Virtual ghost]

You answered what I had asked (you should remember that Ti is also about internal consistency); your answer of Te ignoring facts/data was okish but a little bit limited. Although you did overcome my question "when Te ignores data and facts?" with "when the data is contradictory with lots of others data and facts", which was a good answer, it is not the wide answer I was expecting. So, I might even re-phrase as "When Te ignores all or most datas and facts?" just so perhaps someone can show me with the general answer. I will wait to see if somebody else got the straight answer. If they don't, tomorrow or the other day I will state the answer and my answer to the thread.

EDIT: "Lets say there are two sets of data, one with lots of support. One will little. Te will 100% of the time support the one with lots of support, even if it turns out to be wrong." - that statement is actually wrong in conceptual 'core' Te terms, I will bring why later - or perhaps somebody will answer my question and indirectly answer why.

As very heavy Te user I think that this whole thing "Te ignores facts" is false. Just if you don't jump at every line or conspiracy theory that doesn't mean that you are ignoring facts. Especially since ignoring data and ignoring facts isn't really the same thing, because data aren't necessarily facts. Therefore if you have really studied the issue you can often easily recognize data that is fundamentally flawed and doesn't represent the facts.


But this entire Te vs. Ti talk is kinda nonsense, since the real divide is actual competency level between people. Which runs much deeper than Te vs Ti , which are in the end just simplistic Ti constructs. They are data but they aren't facts. The same goes for all the junk that is most of the internet at this point.

 

[tinker683]

ISFJ, proud Democrat, consider myself a Centrist in Obama/Clinton variety on the vast majority of topics.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

More than mbti functions in action in politics, we need astrological functions in action in politics. Why, the wife of President Ronald Reagan advised the President based on astrological functions. And indeed, the wife of Julius Caesar advised Caesar to beware the Ides of March, and she was right.

For, "Rinse the Blood Off My Toga", click Rinse the Blood Off My Toga - YouTube.

There is no hard data or evidence to back astrology as a valid typological or predictive system.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I'm a democratic socialist and an INTP 5w6. I actually care a lot about individual liberties, though, despite what some people might think. Part of what put me on this path is an observation that centrist liberalism doesn't actually care that much about such things.

Take Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders. Which one of them has the tendency to vote in favor of more government surveillance and things like the Patriot Act, and which against? In fact, I had known about Bernie Sanders long before 2008 because I had seen him make some principled stances that were not part of the popular zeitgeist of the times.

Plus Bernie was one of the few people in Congress to oppose DOMA, when Biden supported it and Bill Clinton touted it as a triumph of his administration.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

You answered what I had asked (you should remember that Ti is also about internal consistency); your answer of Te ignoring facts/data was okish but a little bit limited. Although you did overcome my question "when Te ignores data and facts?" with "when the data is contradictory with lots of others data and facts", which was a good answer, it is not the wide answer I was expecting. So, I might even re-phrase as "When Te ignores all or most datas and facts?" just so perhaps someone can show me with the general answer. I will wait to see if somebody else got the straight answer. If they don't, tomorrow or the other day I will state the answer and my answer to the thread.

EDIT: "Lets say there are two sets of data, one with lots of support. One will little. Te will 100% of the time support the one with lots of support, even if it turns out to be wrong." - that statement is actually wrong in conceptual 'core' Te terms, I will bring why later - or perhaps somebody will answer my question and indirectly answer why.

I’ve seen Te doms (assuming they were correctly typed) choose to ignore data sets completely when backed into a corner. It seems like ESTJs actually tend to be slightly more receptive to data that contradicts their arguments or beliefs, although on the flip, they seem more likely than ENTJs to demand any data come from experts or authorities on subjects.

Every type has their blind spots and biases that will sometimes prevent them from accepting or considering opposing data sets.

 

[Mole]

There is no hard data or evidence to back astrology as a valid typological or predictive system.

The same with somatic typology, and psychological typology. Why, Carl Jung himself wrote that his book, "Psychological Types", is based on no empirical evidence. Faith is all that is required.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

The same with somatic typology, and psychological typology. Why, Carl Jung himself wrote that his book, "Psychological Types", is based on no empirical evidence. Faith is all that is required.

I disagree. Jungian typology was largely based on his observations of others. While the type systems derived from his studies are not perfect, they are at least based in some form of observation. People are not total blank slates. It is easy to observe that different people have different temperaments and cognitive styles. Jungian typology is merely an attempt to define and catalog people’s different temperaments, styles of thinking. The conclusion, however flawed, is at least derived from real observations.

Astrology, on the other hand, starts with a conclusion, from which people then try to form observations or confirmations to fit the conclusion. It relies purely on assumptions that one’s birthdate determines their personality. So it’s no surprise the astrology forecasts one will find in their newspaper will tend to be vague and highly open to interpretation. Plus, tell someone they’re going to meet an important stranger today, and they are going to be more likely to be consciously looking for that person. Confirmation bias will rear its head and the person will interpret some meeting with a stranger more meaningfully, looking for symbolism, when otherwise they might not have given much thought to their meeting with a random stranger.

It’s magical thinking. Like I said, Jungian typology isn’t perfect, and confirmation bias is still a possibility, but at least there’s some basis in observations and attempts to order said observations.

even if the season in which we’re born does have some effect on our personality, Astrology and its followers fail to account for a number of other potential external environmental factors that could affect personality without necessarily having anything to do with alignment of stars and planets in our field of vision on a given birth date. What was the ph level in the water when the person was in their mother’s womb? Was the mother under a great deal of stress, affecting chemical levels in her brain? What was the level of air pollution in the mother’s town or city? Etc

 

[Virtual ghost]

How to quickly recognize that your president is an 8. Translations from the today's press conference of my socialist president:


Yes, the banks were truly ripping people off people, it was quite nasty so we had to do something about it.
I am glad that we managed to stop the immigrant wave, especially since most of these people aren't life threatened. You have to respect the borders.
On the fails of certain public prosecutors: In the case that Hitler invaded Russia with this level of organization he wouldn't pass Kiev.
Leader of conservatives was never in real danger during his life, he is just not that kind of a guy. However since I am big I always protected weaker ones on the playground.
For a while I was personally saying that we need to put heavily armed guards there, that building must not look inviting.
Rules are meant to be changed with time, just take a look at the electoral college across the pond.
It is not my job that people like me, it is nice bonus at the end of the saga but that is not the point.



Western PC left would freeze in the case that they see this kind of a left winger.

 

[Mole]

I disagree. Jungian typology was largely based on his observations of others. While the type systems derived from his studies are not perfect, they are at least based in some form of observation. People are not total blank slates. It is easy to observe that different people have different temperaments and cognitive styles. Jungian typology is merely an attempt to define and catalog people's different temperaments, styles of thinking. The conclusion, however flawed, is at least derived from real observations. Astrology, on the other hand, starts with a conclusion, from which people then try to form observations or confirmations to fit the conclusion. It relies purely on assumptions that one's birthdate determines their personality. So it's no surprise the astrology forecasts one will find in their newspaper will tend to be vague and highly open to interpretation. Plus, tell someone they're going to meet an important stranger today, and they are going to be more likely to be consciously looking for that person. Confirmation bias will rear its head and the person will interpret some meeting with a stranger more meaningfully, looking for symbolism, when otherwise they might not have given much thought to their meeting with a random stranger. It's magical thinking. Like I said, Jungian typology isn't perfect, and confirmation bias is still a possibility, but at least there's some basis in observations and attempts to order said observations. even if the season in which we're born does have some effect on our personality, Astrology and its followers fail to account for a number of other potential external environmental factors that could affect personality without necessarily having anything to do with alignment of stars and planets in our field of vision on a given birth date. What was the ph level in the water when the person was in their mother's womb? Was the mother under a great deal of stress, affecting chemical levels in her brain? What was the level of air pollution in the mother's town or city? Etc

Science shows us we all observe and we all deceive ourselves, for example, for 300,000 years we observed the Sun going round the Earth, and deceixed ourselves until we discovered the scientific method. Neither astrology, mbti, nor racial typing, uses the scientific method. In fact Mbti uses the.same techniques of emotional manipulation as astrology.

 

[Mole]

When we suspend our disbelief we are entering a trance where the critical mind goes to sleep and we are ruled by our emotions.

Confidence men rely upon this to manipulate and control us.

 

[anticlimatic]

I thought about this a lot halfway through Obama's second term:

The Toxic Te/Fi Epidemic in Contemporary America

 

[Virtual ghost]

I thought about this a lot halfway through Obama's second term:

The Toxic Te/Fi Epidemic in Contemporary America

I really don't agree with this on typological level. In the case that there is so much Te/Fi around your country would run as pretty well oiled machine and it wouldn't hit pretty much every street light along the road. For me your problem is better defined as a surge of Fe/Si and childish Se. Since most professionals are way too image focused and do everything by the book for the sake of doing it by the book, while the good chunk of the other groups is way too hedonistic and ADHD-ish. In other words you have destroyed both Te and Ti for the sake of social standardization and quick extra profit. Since with the destruction and decline of manufacturing both of those function kinda lost their main point of use and the economy became kinda subjective and feeling based (branding, sales, marketing, endless people oriented professions and services, lawyers, online shenanigans, professional moralists ... etc). What altogether is pure image/emotion focus without any clear vision or strategy that you would expect out of genuine Te, which is fundamentally objective strategic function by definition. In other words just because there is an image of Te all around that doesn't mean that it is really there.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I really don't agree with this on typological level. In the case that there is so much Te/Fi around your country would run as pretty well oiled machine and it wouldn't hit pretty much every street light along the road. For me your problem is better defined as a surge of Fe/Si and childish Se. Since most professionals are way too image focused and do everything by the book for the sake of doing it by the book, while the good chunk of the other groups is way too hedonistic and ADHD-ish. In other words you have destroyed both Te and Ti for the sake of social standardization and quick extra profit. Since with the destruction and decline of manufacturing both of those function kinda lost their main point of use and the economy became kinda subjective and feeling based (branding, sales, marketing, endless people oriented professions and services, lawyers, online shenanigans, professional moralists ... etc). What altogether is pure image/emotion focus without any clear vision or strategy that you would expect out of genuine Te, which is fundamentally objective strategic function by definition. In other words just because there is an image of Te all around that doesn't mean that it is really there.

That's interesting. I think there's also a lot of childish Si and yearning for a better time that isn't coming back, on both sides of the aisle. People refuse to acknowledge the fact that the world isn't the same and it's not the 1990s or or the 1980s anymore. People are obsessed with "getting back to normalcy" and making things "great again" without bothering to look at what actually is in the present moment. It's like people that play poker thinking that they have the same cards in their hands that one time that won, rather than actually looking at the cards they have now.

They want to stick with what's comforting at the expense of ignoring the present reality and what's coming down the pipeline. I'm more sympathetic than that than I might sound because there is a part of me like that as well. The problem is that this has become the dominant way of thinking in our culture.. it's eclipsed acknowledging the present, envisioning what might be, or preparing for what is to come.

 

[anticlimatic]

I really don't agree with this on typological level. In the case that there is so much Te/Fi around your country would run as pretty well oiled machine and it wouldn't hit pretty much every street light along the road. For me your problem is better defined as a surge of Fe/Si and childish Se. Since most professionals are way too image focused and do everything by the book for the sake of doing it by the book, while the good chunk of the other groups is way too hedonistic and ADHD-ish. In other words you have destroyed both Te and Ti for the sake of social standardization and quick extra profit. Since with the destruction and decline of manufacturing both of those function kinda lost their main point of use and the economy became kinda subjective and feeling based (branding, sales, marketing, endless people oriented professions and services, lawyers, online shenanigans, professional moralists ... etc). What altogether is pure image/emotion focus without any clear vision or strategy that you would expect out of genuine Te, which is fundamentally objective strategic function by definition. In other words just because there is an image of Te all around that doesn't mean that it is really there.

Well, much has changed since I wrote that some six or seven years ago. I mostly brought it up as a point of contrast with the present. When I wrote this Obama had just swung the country extremely far to the left- which is best represented by Te/Fi- and both he, the establishment, and the American media were all in boot-marching lock-step, plowing forward over any dissenters, declaring that "the right side of history" was moving forward and probably no alternative political perspective would ever hold power in the USA again.


Some countries might be OK and thrive under top-down rule from establishment oligarchs like that, but Americans tend to value freedom and independence in their bones, and have a good system in place to represent the will of the people. Years after I wrote this, in 2016, Americans voted to rebuke this Te/Fi vision of the future and kicked the left wing establishment completely out of power. Rather than reconcile and acknowledge their overreach, they have since doubled down on their rabbid pursuit of power and control and have directed their lock-step boot-marching ideological army at the sitting president and his voters in a stunning 4 year long assault, stripped completely of the thin veneer of civility they were only able to maintain when they felt they were in complete control.

If this ideological civil war assault succeeds in duping enough people into voting the radical left establishment back into power, they will probably break the mechanisms that could allow them to be ousted again- like the electoral collage, a non-activist Supreme Court, minority rights in the senate, etc. After that it will take years of abysmal living conditions to inspire a more traditional rebuke of government- likely in the form of armed revolution, without any other recourse.

 

[Virtual ghost]

That's interesting. I think there's also a lot of childish Si and yearning for a better time that isn't coming back, on both sides of the aisle. People refuse to acknowledge the fact that the world isn't the same and it's not the 1990s or or the 1980s anymore. People are obsessed with "getting back to normalcy" and making things "great again" without bothering to look at what actually is in the present moment. It's like people that play poker thinking that they have the same cards in their hands that one time that won, rather than actually looking at the cards they have now.

They want to stick with what's comforting at the expense of ignoring the present reality and what's coming down the pipeline. I'm more sympathetic than that than I might sound because there is a part of me like that as well. The problem is that this has become the dominant way of thinking in our culture.. it's eclipsed acknowledging the present, envisioning what might be, or preparing for what is to come.

I am probably the first one here that started with this argument that the world has changed over the last few decades. Currently you have what you have by pretty good margin exactly because "normal" isn't doing the job done anymore. What altogether basically falls under the collective Fe/Si loop I am talking about. I mean US is evidently very Si heavy nation and in complex world that quickly changes too much Si can evidently be counter-productive.


As I said a while ago: Ironically US now suffers because it never had a modern war on it's soil. Which simply forces you to think in the direction that status quo isn't forever and that greater changes can come at your door regardless of whatever you are ready or not. My grandfather lived through 3 wars and 5 different political systems, while he didn't leave the piece of land on which was born. That is kinda drastic example but it proves a point that not everything can be maintained forever. Because eventually big change will come one way or another, because that is how the world works since forever. You can perhaps save some of the things you really like (or even need) but on the long run things change and adaptation is needed.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

If this ideological civil war assault succeeds in duping enough people into voting the radical left establishment back into power, they will probably break the mechanisms that could allow them to be ousted again- like the electoral collage, a non-activist Supreme Court, minority rights in the senate, etc. After that it will take years of abysmal living conditions to inspire a more traditional rebuke of government- likely in the form of armed revolution, without any other recourse.

Interesting that you support violently overturning the results of an election. Sounds like BDS.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Well, much has changed since I wrote that some six or seven years ago. I mostly brought it up as a point of contrast with the present. When I wrote this Obama had just swung the country extremely far to the left- which is best represented by Te/Fi- and both he, the establishment, and the American media were all in boot-marching lock-step, plowing forward over any dissenters, declaring that "the right side of history" was moving forward and probably no alternative political perspective would ever hold power in the USA again.


Some countries might be OK and thrive under top-down rule from establishment oligarchs like that, but Americans tend to value freedom and independence in their bones, and have a good system in place to represent the will of the people. Years after I wrote this, in 2016, Americans voted to rebuke this Te/Fi vision of the future and kicked the left wing establishment completely out of power. Rather than reconcile and acknowledge their overreach, they have since doubled down on their rabbid pursuit of power and control and have directed their lock-step boot-marching ideological army at the sitting president and his voters in a stunning 4 year long assault, stripped completely of the thin veneer of civility they were only able to maintain when they felt they were in complete control.

If this ideological civil war assault succeeds in duping enough people into voting the radical left establishment back into power, they will probably break the mechanisms that could allow them to be ousted again- like the electoral collage, a non-activist Supreme Court, minority rights in the senate, etc. After that it will take years of abysmal living conditions to inspire a more traditional rebuke of government- likely in the form of armed revolution, without any other recourse.

Obama is pretty surely Fe-Ti user, that is the source of his "charisma", Fe.
Probably your last president that was clear Te user was Regan and that is the source of decline. Since everything else since then are salesmen, diplomats, loyalists, moralists ... etc.



Plus you can talk like this with your drinking buddies at home but calling current Democratic leadership "far left" is simply ignorant in the presence of someone like me (person that was actually born in Communism). Once the pandemic is over I really think that you should come on this side of the Atlantic just that you see center left politics/environment from close. Since even here far left is hard to find these days. What altogether would serve the purpose that you realize how much to the right DNC is (as well as your whole country). Therefore if Democrats are far left then what are all those people on this side of the Atlantic ? Far far left !? Here putting in places policies that Biden want's would almost surely cause mayor unrest(s), since in economy he is market extremist. You wouldn't believe me how dumb I feel every time I make a pro Biden post since he is still a type of extremist. Because here even Bernie would be center or mild right.


Plus you evidently don't have a good system, if anything because you don't have possibility of snap elections. Which are real check on the politics and that is what allows you to give power to politics, so that they can actually get something done. Just if impact is large that doesn't mean that there is are no checks and balances.

 

[anticlimatic]

Interesting that you support violently overturning the results of an election. Sounds like BDS.

If you think I'm going to keep giving you attention based on your ridiculous straw men, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

If you think I'm going to keep giving you attention based on your ridiculous straw men, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed.

Aww. Sorry if I offended you.

By the way, quoting someone isn't using a straw man. You should look up what that actually means but you probably think dictionaries and the like are "far-left propaganda".