Karl Marx Hated Jews?

[Tater]

Karl Marx in "On The he Jewish Question", published in 1844.

What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.…. Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities…. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange…. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.

 

[Coriolis]

What is your purpose in posting this?

 

[Fidelia]

I had always thought Marx WAS jewish.

 

[highlander]

Why are you posting this question? What exactly are you asking?

 

[Tater]

What is your purpose in posting this?

I'm shining a light on something I don't think is tales about very often.

 

[Coriolis]

I'm shining a light on something I don't think is tales about very often.

Not sure what this means: "I don't think is tales about . . . "

Any particular reason why you decided to shine a light on this topic? Why does it merit our attention? What do you think about it? One thing we want to discourage is people starting threads with just a sensational, click-baitish, or even incendiary link, with no commentary or context. That often starts a thread off on the wrong foot. So, it would be good if you could offer some commentary here.

I wonder if Marx understood why there were so many Jews involved in finance/moneylending. There is a very good historical reason for it.

 

[Tater]

Not sure what this means: "I don't think is tales about . . . "

Any particular reason why you decided to shine a light on this topic? Why does it merit our attention? What do you think about it? One thing we want to discourage is people starting threads with just a sensational, click-baitish, or even incendiary link, with no commentary or context. That often starts a thread off on the wrong foot. So, it would be good if you could offer some commentary here.

I wonder if Marx understood why there were so many Jews involved in finance/moneylending. There is a very good historical reason for it.

Typo. I meant "I wanted to shine a light on something I don't think is talked about very often."

I think that some sections of the far left have gripes against Jews because Jewish people are over-represented in finance/moneylending (professions based on capitalistic premises). And this strain of antisemitism probably finds an origin on Marx's work, if it doesn't go back even further.

 

[Tater]

I had always thought Marx WAS jewish.

He was ethnically Jewish, but that doesn't mean he was religiously Jewish, nor did it prevent him from expressing caustic material about Jewish people, such as what he published in the New York Daily Tribune:

Thus we find every tyrant backed by a Jew, as is every pope by a Jesuit. In truth, the cravings of oppressors would be hopeless, and the practicability of war out of the question, if there were not an army of Jesuits to smother thought and a handful of Jews to ransack pockets.

… the real work is done by the Jews, and can only be done by them, as they monopolize the machinery of the loanmongering mysteries by concentrating their energies upon the barter trade in securities… Here and there and everywhere that a little capital courts investment, there is ever one of these little Jews ready to make a little suggestion or place a little bit of a loan. The smartest highwayman in the Abruzzi is not better posted up about the locale of the hard cash in a traveler’s valise or pocket than those Jews about any loose capital in the hands of a trader… The language spoken smells strongly of Babel, and the perfume which otherwise pervades the place is by no means of a choice kind.

… Thus do these loans, which are a curse to the people, a ruin to the holders, and a danger to the governments, become a blessing to the houses of the children of Judah. This Jew organization of loan-mongers is as dangerous to the people as the aristocratic organization of landowners… The fortunes amassed by these loan-mongers are immense, but the wrongs and sufferings thus entailed on the people and the encouragement thus afforded to their oppressors still remain to be told.

… The fact that 1855 years ago Christ drove the Jewish moneychangers out of the temple, and that the moneychangers of our age enlisted on the side of tyranny happen again chiefly to be Jews, is perhaps no more than a historical coincidence. The loan-mongering Jews of Europe do only on a larger and more obnoxious scale what many others do on one smaller and less significant. But it is only because the Jews are so strong that it is timely and expedient to expose and stigmatize their organization.

 

[Tater]

Why are you posting this question? What exactly are you asking?

I found it interesting that despite the fact that he was ethnically Jewish, he expressed disdain for Jewish people. I wanted to explore the apparent discrepancy, especially as it concerns his book "On the Jewish Question."

 

[Jaguar]

He meant to type: "I'm shining a light on something I don't think is talked about very often."

Karl Marx was born on May 5, 1818, in the German city of Trier. His family was Jewish but later converted to Protestantism in 1824 in order to avoid anti-semitic laws and persecution. For this reason among others, Marx rejected religion early on in his youth and made it absolutely clear that he was an atheist.

That explains a few things.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't think it's inherently provocative or trolling to start conversations about bigotry of any kind. While I understand why it might make people uncomfortable, I don't think it's helpful to sweep these sorts of discussions under the rug.

I'm actually aware of this about Marx. I do actually think there's such a thing as far-left antisemitism, although it's not necessarily the same thing as criticizing Israel (although some folks might want to portray those as the same thing). I think things enter into antisemitic territory when there's a willful ignorance of historical context, or an entire lack of concern for historical sensitivity. Someone who, when told that their attitude is problematic and provided with an explanation why, and doubles down on that while refusing to apologize, is probably bigoted. (Not to bring this into the territory of politics, but I don't think recent high profile incidents in the U.S. fully qualify.)

 

[Red Herring]

I thought it was a wellknown and often and openly discussed fact that
1. Marx had Jewish roots
2. Some of his anticapitalist views overlapped with antisemitic views
3. There is leftwing antisemitism, some of it based on these stereotypes and some based on the Palestine conflict

None of this is new or secret. It has been openly debated for as long as I can remember and should be known to anyone with at least a highschool degree.

 

[ceecee]

Typo. I meant "I wanted to shine a light on something I don't think is talked about very often."

I think that some sections of the far left have gripes against Jews because Jewish people are over-represented in finance/moneylending (professions based on capitalistic premises). And this strain of antisemitism probably finds an origin on Marx's work, if it doesn't go back even further.

Marx was born a Jew but was atheist the majority of his life, he was very adamant about that in everything I've read on his life.

I wonder if he would have found criticism of Israel antisemitic. I doubt it but it's possible.

 

[Coriolis]

I don't think it's inherently provocative or trolling to start conversations about bigotry of any kind. While I understand why it might make people uncomfortable, I don't think it's helpful to sweep these sorts of discussions under the rug.

It is not inherently provocative to start a discussion about bigotry. That all depends on how it is presented, which presumes it actually is presented - introduced with some commentary or context setting the focus and scope of the discussion. Absent that, a bare link is just as likely to bring out the worst as the best in responses. Of course anything that crosses the line, either in denigrating groups, making personal attacks,or discussing politics can be closed and removed, but it is better for a discussion to remain open and constructive.

 

[Tater]

I don't think it's inherently provocative or trolling to start conversations about bigotry of any kind. While I understand why it might make people uncomfortable, I don't think it's helpful to sweep these sorts of discussions under the rug.

I'm actually aware of this about Marx. I do actually think there's such a thing as far-left antisemitism, although it's not necessarily the same thing as criticizing Israel (although some folks might want to portray those as the same thing). I think things enter into antisemitic territory when there's a willful ignorance of historical context, or an entire lack of concern for historical sensitivity. Someone who, when told that their attitude is problematic and provided with an explanation why, and doubles down on that while refusing to apologize, is probably bigoted. (Not to bring this into the territory of politics, but I don't think recent high profile incidents in the U.S. fully qualify.)

Good post. Can you explain/elaborate on the bold?

 

[Coriolis]

The quote in the OP is unsubstantiated personal opinion. I wonder what experiences or observations led Marx to form such an opinion. Anyone have any ideas? As I asked before, I wonder also whether he was aware of the origins of Jewish ties to finance and money lending. Throughout the middle ages, in most places Jews were barred from the usual trades and professions, perhaps even from land owning so they could farm. This, then, was one of the few avenues open to them for earning a living, and one that could become more lucrative than the others. Someone (Jacques?) recently brought up Shakespeare's play, the Merchant of Venice. We see this legacy and the associated bigotry quite clearly there.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Good post. Can you explain/elaborate on the bold?

I'm actually thinking of two or three people I knew on another forum who made a point of being really leftist. Only one of them was American.

 

[Tater]

The quote in the OP is unsubstantiated personal opinion. I wonder what experiences or observations led Marx to form such an opinion. Anyone have any ideas? As I asked before, I wonder also whether he was aware of the origins of Jewish ties to finance and money lending. Throughout the middle ages, in most places Jews were barred from the usual trades and professions, perhaps even from land owning so they could farm. This, then, was one of the few avenues open to them for earning a living, and one that could become more lucrative than the others. Someone (Jacques?) recently brought up Shakespeare's play, the Merchant of Venice. We see this legacy and the associated bigotry quite clearly there.

Marx took issue with elements of bourgeoisie culture, and if those of his background were overrepresented among the bourgeoisie, then he probably took issue with some individuals of his background as well. Jews have a historical reputation for mercantile and finance in which they learned to integrate into various social contexts and economies by focusing on trade and banking, which I assume was largely motivated by the fact that they were often bottlenecked into those professions by being barred from others. And I wouldn't be surprised if his decision to distance himself from his background served as a precaution or defense mechanism, since Europe had a strong history of antisemitism, often culminating in expulsions of local Jewish populations. Austria, England, France, Hungary, Lithuania, Milan, Naples, Nuremberg, Portugal, Sicily and Spain have experienced Jewish expulsions - some countries more than once. So, in a way, despite being Jewish, Marx was also just a man of his time, resounding prejudices that already had a strong precedent by the time of his life. If his statements were unironic, and I think they were, then it stands to reason that he probably had some self-loathing.

 

[Norexan]

Karl Marx in "On The he Jewish Question", published in 1844.

Actually here, he criticized how Jews don't believe in their god and how they are hypocrites. Not hate speech about nations itself.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Actually here, he criticized how Jews don't believe in their god and how they are hypocrites. Not hate speech about nations itself.

Imagine a modern U.S. political figure said that. I don't really think his statements are defensible outside of perhaps historical context.