[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Jung's "ninth" personality type

[sculpting]

Jung mentioned descriptions of eight defined types but then also said that a group of individuals defy classification into one of these types. He called them "creative" or "artistic" as they were seen to switch back and forth between types as they combined functions typically unconscious with dominant conscious functions. They may come close to the "transcendent" function described by Jung.

The behavioral hallmark is a rapid switching from what appear to be diametrically opposed functions (ie Ne and Si or Te and Fi) without the extreme negative consequences often seen by shadow/stress induced use of the tert or inf function.....ie the end result appears to be stable, productive and healthy use of tertiary and inferior functions as a natural part of the individuals psyche with near the strength and competence of a dominent or aux user of that function.

Empirically they seem to represent 9% of the population on a sample size of 2 million tests.

Have you guys heard of this before?
[MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION] you appear to have been brilliantly correct all this time, apologies.

 

[Evee]

Strong avi to thread topic correlation.

 

[reckful]

Jung mentioned descriptions of eight defined types but then also said that a group of individuals defy classification into one of these types. He called them "creative" or "artistic" as they were seen to switch back and forth between types as they combined functions typically unconscious with dominant conscious functions. They may come close to the "transcendent" function described by Jung.

The behavioral hallmark is a rapid switching from what appear to be diametrically opposed functions (ie Ne and Si or Te and Fi) without the extreme negative consequences often seen by shadow/stress induced use of the tert or inf function.....ie the end result appears to be stable, productive and healthy use of tertiary and inferior functions as a natural part of the individuals psyche with near the strength and competence of a dominent or aux user of that function.

Empirically they seem to represent 9% of the population on a sample size of 2 million tests.

Have you guys heard of this before?

[MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION] you appear to have been brilliantly correct all this time, apologies.

Do you have a credible source for any of this? Which of Jung's works are you referring to? And who conducted that two-million-subject study, using what test?

 

[Mustafa]

I heard INFPs although they are feelers, some of them do develop logical (thinking) abilities. I believe generals and their peers, have developed all 8 functions fully. And we decend in a hirearchy. But the bigger the skill, the bigger your responsibility is the bigger the danger. So ignorance is blizz. You are between generals and crazy people.

Thank you

 

[Forever_Jung]

I can imagine Dan Brown writing a novel around Jung's lost 9th type.

 

[Ghost]

The behavioral hallmark is a rapid switching from what appear to be diametrically opposed functions (ie Ne and Si or Te and Fi) without the extreme negative consequences often seen by shadow/stress induced use of the tert or inf function.....ie the end result appears to be stable, productive and healthy use of tertiary and inferior functions as a natural part of the individuals psyche with near the strength and competence of a dominent or aux user of that function.

I hadn't heard of this before, but it makes complete sense to me. One of the things that bothered me about the descriptions of inferior functions is that I don't think it works that way all the time or for everybody. Some people seem to have a decent handle on their inferior.

Terrible analogy time. Imagine being right-handed and, due to the circumstances, having to adapt to using your left hand. With practice and by necessity, you can become relatively adept at using your non-dominant hand. That doesn't mean you're left-handed, and you'd likely still prefer your right hand. When the situation calls for left-handedness, you won't be as clumsy as someone who never felt the need or desire to develop the aptitude for wielding something they're not naturally skilled at. Ya know?

I think you can grow into your opposing function (like Ni for Se-doms or Fe for Ti-doms) and be able to alternate between the two—or incorporate the lower functions in support of the dominant. I don't even think it's very unusual. I doubt most people spend much time in that mode, though some individuals might gain greater proficiency for it, to the point that their functions are difficult to distinguish from one another. I get why creative people would be more prone to this sort of transcendent state, but I'm not sure how to explain why that makes sense to me.

Obviously, I need to read Jung because I had no idea he described this.

Empirically they seem to represent 9% of the population on a sample size of 2 million tests.

Where does this come from?

 

[INTP]

Jung mentioned descriptions of eight defined types but then also said that a group of individuals defy classification into one of these types. He called them "creative" or "artistic" as they were seen to switch back and forth between types as they combined functions typically unconscious with dominant conscious functions. They may come close to the "transcendent" function described by Jung.

The behavioral hallmark is a rapid switching from what appear to be diametrically opposed functions (ie Ne and Si or Te and Fi) without the extreme negative consequences often seen by shadow/stress induced use of the tert or inf function.....ie the end result appears to be stable, productive and healthy use of tertiary and inferior functions as a natural part of the individuals psyche with near the strength and competence of a dominent or aux user of that function.

Empirically they seem to represent 9% of the population on a sample size of 2 million tests.

Have you guys heard of this before?

[MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION] you appear to have been brilliantly correct all this time, apologies.

I call bullshit/some weird jaguar trolling

[MENTION=18763]Ghost[/MENTION] just so you wouldnt blindly believe this

 

[cascadeco]

If this were true, to me it seems strange that there's only a '9th' type where tert and inf functions are used well. Why not a 10th type where demon functions are flipped to nicely? Or an 11th type where nothing is preferred? And so on.

Anyway, in developing his system, Jung was observing less balanced individuals, no? Thus ones who were more neurotic/ pronounced/extreme in preference. There's tons of stuff in between, health levels, and so on.

 

[1487610420]

If this were true, to me it seems strange that there's only a '9th' type where tert and inf functions are used well. Why not a 10th type where demon functions are flipped to nicely? Or an 11th type where nothing is preferred? And so on.

Anyway, in developing his system, Jung was observing less balanced individuals, no? Thus ones who were more neurotic/ pronounced/extreme in preference. There's tons of stuff in between, health levels, and so on.

Right, as per discussion with [MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION], MBTI is but a stereotyping tool humans use for efficiency purposes, because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_load, thus in fact, super granularity is actually detrimental to this process.

 

[Jaguar]

Terrible analogy time. Imagine being right-handed and, due to the circumstances, having to adapt to using your left hand. With practice and by necessity, you can become relatively adept at using your non-dominant hand. That doesn't mean you're left-handed, and you'd likely still prefer your right hand. When the situation calls for left-handedness, you won't be as clumsy as someone who never felt the need or desire to develop the aptitude for wielding something they're not naturally skilled at. Ya know?

I think you can grow into your opposing function (like Ni for Se-doms or Fe for Ti-doms) and be able to alternate between the two—or incorporate the lower functions in support of the dominant. I don't even think it's very unusual. I doubt most people spend much time in that mode, though some individuals might gain greater proficiency for it, to the point that their functions are difficult to distinguish from one another. I get why creative people would be more prone to this sort of transcendent state, but I'm not sure how to explain why that makes sense to me.

Obviously, I need to read Jung because I had no idea he described this.

Actually, it's not a terrible analogy.

I'm right-handed. But when I need pinpoint accuracy in hitting a target, I use my left hand. What's the catch? I don't think about it when using my left hand. If someone said, "hit that target" using my right hand, I'd stand there. Thinking. Aiming. Then I miss the target. To me, what is unconscious has immense power and it's not negative. It's why my double-fisted backhand when playing team tennis was so accurate. I could "make" the ball hit a spot on the court that was nearly impossible. But then I wasn't actually thinking when using my backhand. My right forehand stroke sucked by comparison; I was actually thinking. It's slower. Conscious thought can be slower and more methodical. The same is true if I crunch up a ball of paper and throw it across the room into the trash can. Which hand did I use? The left. It sails right in every time, and I never even stopped to think. Using my right hand, I miss every time. The power of the unconscious can work at lightning speed. Think of it as a supercomputer that is always working. On its own.

My comments smack of what many have written on the topic of conscious and unconscious thought. At some point, people need to get out of the past and evolve with an eye pointing toward the future. Stop thinking about "order" and "stacking." Listen to the entire symphony which is comprised of both conscious and unconscious elements. It's not as if one is listening to the symphony, thinking, "Okay, first I'm going to listen to the string section, now I'm going to listen to the horn section, now I'm going to listen to the woodwind section, etc." People listen to all the sections playing together and the whole is other than the mere sum of its parts. That's right, other. People frequently say "greater" but really, it's other. If I add my dad's brain and my mom's brain, you don't get my brain. You get, other. The whole is other than the sum of its parts. It could be greater, sure, but the main point is, it is other. It's different.

[MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION], I have to prepare for a meeting with my attorney this afternoon, so my contribution to this thread will be on the light side. I don't think I was brilliantly correct, but thanks. I just throw my thoughts out there.

That aside, some of the comments and "likes" in this thread are what is wrong with this forum. Now. Years ago, threads like this were the norm. Theoretical discussion. Exploring possibilities. It's why this forum was once great. Even Eric B's posts meet with either crickets chirping, or mind-numbing retorts. Fwiw, I applaud you for trying to bring back quality discussion.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

If this were true, to me it seems strange that there's only a '9th' type where tert and inf functions are used well. Why not a 10th type where demon functions are flipped to nicely? Or an 11th type where nothing is preferred? And so on.

Anyway, in developing his system, Jung was observing less balanced individuals, no? Thus ones who were more neurotic/ pronounced/extreme in preference. There's tons of stuff in between, health levels, and so on.

I've also noticed that there is a way the dominant function, when especially strong in an individual, can switch between its introverted and extroverted versions. A person like Noam Chompsky is a clear T-dom, and his ideas are very internal and go against the norms, so I suspect you can make a strong argument for him being a Ti-dom, and his demeanor and presence is *very* Ti - quiet, focused, internal, but he also references every idea externally so exhaustively that he has to be strong with Te as well.

I've also seen people with a strong dominant function that combines with the inferior function, so that there can be a Ti-dom whose Feeling realm is undeniably and strongly Fi instead of inferior-Fe. I've also noticed some people I can't pin as a Ni or Si dom, or even as a Ne or Se dom with some of my artist friends.

I suspect the individual functions move about within us much like the patterns in a kaleidoscope. If you place the eight functions as eight different shapes/colors, and have their relative presence represented in the number of shapes present, you place them into a kaleidoscope, then turn the chamber and view all the interlocking patterns that emerge, then you are seeing something more closely akin to how the dynamics of personality actually work within an individual. The eight functions don't line up like little soldiers inside us always obeying their order of strength to determine our thoughts and behaviors. It is much more dynamic I suspect.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Actually, it's not a terrible analogy.

I'm right-handed. But when I need pinpoint accuracy in hitting a target, I use my left hand. What's the catch? I don't think about it when using my left hand. If someone said, "hit that target" using my right hand, I'd stand there. Thinking. Aiming. Then I miss the target. To me, what is unconscious has immense power and it's not negative. It's why my double-fisted backhand when playing team tennis was so accurate. I could "make" the ball hit a spot on the court that was nearly impossible. But then I wasn't actually thinking when using my backhand. My right forehand stroke sucked by comparison; I was actually thinking. It's slower. Conscious thought can be slower and more methodical. The same is true if I crunch up a ball of paper and throw it across the room into the trash can. Which hand did I use? The left. It sails right in every time, and I never even stopped to think. Using my right hand, I miss every time. The power of the unconscious can work at lightning speed. Think of it as a supercomputer that is always working. On its own.

Like you, I am right handed. I don't think much about what I am doing using it.

I do a lot of things with either hand. With both hands engaged, I can be really efficient.

But if I shoot guns or use bows, I use my left hand. I am horrible aiming with my right eye and right hand. I can not hit anything. This frustrated me greatly as a boy scout, as I could never qualify for those merit badges.

Three years ago, I took my boys to scout camp. They had adult shooting time. One of the instructors suggested I try left handed shooting. With guns or bows, I get a bulls-eye every time.

There is something about turning off the conscious and just doing by using opposite hands that works.

Now, I am a INFJ with kick ass Ne. As good as a Ne Dom? No, but pretty damn good. It is left hand quick reaction tool, like a boxer's jab. Ni is my right hook knock out blow, but Ne is there at the ready. I am constantly getting ideas that X could happen or Y.

I do have decent usage of all 8 functions. On post 849 on my blog a few weeks ago, I went through my relationship with all 8, after reading one of Eric B's posts. No need to copy that here, but it really hit me how much I use all 8. Even Te, as I talk with my children regularly about efficiency and planning and organizing. My wife is 100 times better than me at that, but I use that thinking a bunch. And my demon Si does me wrong at times. I have a pretty good memory and I get trapped overanalyzing old events, even from childhood.

My comments smack of what many have written on the topic of conscious and unconscious thought. At some point, people need to get out of the past and evolve with an eye pointing toward the future. Stop thinking about "order" and "stacking." Listen to the entire symphony which is comprised of both conscious and unconscious elements. It's not as if one is listening to the symphony, thinking, "Okay, first I'm going to listen to the string section, now I'm going to listen to the horn section, now I'm going to listen to the woodwind section, etc." People listen to all the sections playing together and the whole is other than the mere sum of its parts. That's right, other. People frequently say "greater" but really, it's other. If I add my dad's brain and my mom's brain, you don't get my brain. You get, other. The whole is other than the sum of its parts. It could be greater, sure, but the main point is, it is other. It's different.

[MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION], I have to prepare for a meeting with my attorney this afternoon, so my contribution to this thread will be on the light side. I don't think I was brilliantly correct, but thanks. I just throw my thoughts out there.

That aside, some of the comments and "likes" in this thread are what is wrong with this forum. Now. Years ago, threads like this were the norm. Theoretical discussion. Exploring possibilities. It's why this forum was once great. Even Eric B's posts meet with either crickets chirping, or mind-numbing retorts. Fwiw, I applaud you for trying to bring back quality discussion.

I have read so many great threads from the last.....And I am shocked about the absence of similar threads today.....

Thanks for your contribution here.

 

[reckful]

That aside, some of the comments and "likes" in this thread are what is wrong with this forum. Now. Years ago, threads like this were the norm. Theoretical discussion. Exploring possibilities. It's why this forum was once great. Even Eric B's posts meet with either crickets chirping, or mind-numbing retorts. Fwiw, I applaud you for trying to bring back quality discussion.

There's nothing wrong with you or Orobas or anybody else doing all the theoretical speculation you like.

But if you make a post that says that the "possibility" you're describing is something Jung described, and it wasn't, or if you claim that your "possibility" has been supported by a test involving two million subjects, and it hasn't, then your post belongs in a different category, and I wouldn't say "quality discussion" is the appropriate label for that category.

 

[cascadeco]

I've also seen people with a strong dominant function that combines with the inferior function, so that there can be a Ti-dom whose Feeling realm is undeniably and strongly Fi instead of inferior-Fe. I've also noticed some people I can't pin as a Ni or Si dom, or even as a Ne or Se dom with some of my artist friends.

I suspect the individual functions move about within us much like the patterns in a kaleidoscope. If you place the eight functions as eight different shapes/colors, and have their relative presence represented in the number of shapes present, you place them into a kaleidoscope, then turn the chamber and view all the interlocking patterns that emerge, then you are seeing something more closely akin to how the dynamics of personality actually work within an individual. The eight functions don't line up like little soldiers inside us always obeying their order of strength to determine our thoughts and behaviors. It is much more dynamic I suspect.

I tend to agree. I also have this notion that people who remain more open throughout life, or even who are forced through a particular event, or adversity, to adapt, and who aren't as tied down by their own way of doing things /their ego, perhaps have more ability to access different areas -- the whole brain plasticity concept, that over time, nerve connections can become very set, patterns can become very rigid in the brain, but it's possible for those patterns to change -- if the person puts forth the effort.

fwiw I'm not arguing this as a positive or a negative thing, just as a neutral thing -- I think it's quite possible though. Just as people who are very set in their own processes, will have those processes cemented.

But that sub-topic aside, re mbti specifically, I agree that while there are people I observe/know who seem to be pretty solidly one type or another, there's another set of people who are not nearly as black and white. I think that's ok, really, mbti is an easy archetypal framework but I think there are several spectrums.

 

[Jaguar]

I have read so many great threads from the last.....And I am shocked about the absence of similar threads today.....
Thanks for your contribution here.

Y/W. I'm glad to see someone else noticed that about them. When I'm bored, I go read the old threads. A lot of conflict back then, but out of conflict and chaos a new way of seeing something can emerge, not previously considered.

Cheers.

 

[sculpting]

If this were true, to me it seems strange that there's only a '9th' type where tert and inf functions are used well. Why not a 10th type where demon functions are flipped to nicely? Or an 11th type where nothing is preferred? And so on.

Anyway, in developing his system, Jung was observing less balanced individuals, no? Thus ones who were more neurotic/ pronounced/extreme in preference. There's tons of stuff in between, health levels, and so on.

Hello Mrs Beautiful cascadeco, I have much missed your thoughts!

What Jung was describing was individuals who were "artistic" one moment extroverted, one moment introverted and didnt fit cleanly into the eight type model. Ill find quotes and return.

It is beautiful as, as a friend noted, the eight functions are much like a musical harmony, constantly adapting as an emergent persona to meet the needs of the external world.

I admit being simply delighted

 

[RobinSkye]

Hello Mrs Beautiful cascadeco, I have much missed your thoughts!

What Jung was describing was individuals who were "artistic" one moment extroverted, one moment introverted and didnt fit cleanly into the eight type model. Ill find quotes and return.

It is beautiful as, as a friend noted, the eight functions are much like a musical harmony, constantly adapting as an emergent persona to meet the needs of the external world.

I admit being simply delighted

Pretty much sounds like you're describing me.

My guess would be that those types start as INFP. As a child, I was able to be really extroverted in order to experience many things. Now I spend a lot of time just contemplating... studying whatever interests me. I became much more of a "logical" being but still am very moralistic/idealistic.

 

[sculpting]

There's nothing wrong with you or Orobas or anybody else doing all the theoretical speculation you like.

But if you make a post that says that the "possibility" you're describing is something Jung described, and it wasn't, or if you claim that your "possibility" has been supported by a test involving two million subjects, and it hasn't, then your post belongs in a different category, and I wouldn't say "quality discussion" is the appropriate label for that category.

Apologies-I am uncertain if that stats I quoted are considered IP or not, as I saw them in a you tube video given by a lecturer, so did not want to elaborate more. Let me poke a bit and get back to you....

The suggestion is mentioned in Jung's psychological types and in work by Jacobi as well, where she summarizes his ideas. Upon further study of those texts, it seems to be a description of a person, as [MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] mentioned, who developed a bit differently, and learned to use the dominant and inferior functions in concert-thus honestly neglecting the two middle functions somewhat. It seems to be more obvious in perceivesr and not as notable in dominant judgers.

Thus you would see NeSi, SeNi, NiSe, and SiNe as the most used functions (although as we note, the other functions emerge as in a complex symphony that resembles the jungian "complex", constantly shifting and changing-@jaguars musical description is quite apt.).

In these individuals you would expect to see a ping-pong of sorts and as it occurs, abrupt transition in communication styles and thought patterns. The reason this matters is that others will misread this shift and assume inauthenticity or fake behavior, when in reality, the person is simply shifting gears and perceiving the problem differently. People who fall into this bucket can be extremely hard to read by others.

Lol, for me, over the years I have been called a boring enfp, a stupid entp, an overly emotional estj and people say "you arent like any other enfp I have met". It is very helpful for me as an individual to understand Im something else, especially the communication aspects. It also helps me understand what my mid-life crisis looks like, lol. I had a simply wonderful dinner with a jungian expert and he explained that I am "blessed by the dual gifts of sensing and intuition and that my team would love me, even as my peers are afraid of me" because what I see, I accomplish. Id suggest I primarily function in an NeSiTeFi mode but that isnt defining as Ni can appear and the emphasis of any of the buckets can shift some.

We are simply beautiful songs I suspect in constant evolution and adaptation.

PS Jacombi's work on the unconscious is simply brilliant.

 

[Poki]

Jung mentioned descriptions of eight defined types but then also said that a group of individuals defy classification into one of these types. He called them "creative" or "artistic" as they were seen to switch back and forth between types as they combined functions typically unconscious with dominant conscious functions. They may come close to the "transcendent" function described by Jung.

The behavioral hallmark is a rapid switching from what appear to be diametrically opposed functions (ie Ne and Si or Te and Fi) without the extreme negative consequences often seen by shadow/stress induced use of the tert or inf function.....ie the end result appears to be stable, productive and healthy use of tertiary and inferior functions as a natural part of the individuals psyche with near the strength and competence of a dominent or aux user of that function.

Empirically they seem to represent 9% of the population on a sample size of 2 million tests.

Have you guys heard of this before?

[MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION] you appear to have been brilliantly correct all this time, apologies.

We are the divergent

 

[andresimon]

Jung mentioned descriptions of eight defined types but then also said that a group of individuals defy classification into one of these types. He called them "creative" or "artistic" as they were seen to switch back and forth between types as they combined functions typically unconscious with dominant conscious functions. They may come close to the "transcendent" function described by Jung.

The behavioral hallmark is a rapid switching from what appear to be diametrically opposed functions (ie Ne and Si or Te and Fi) without the extreme negative consequences often seen by shadow/stress induced use of the tert or inf function.....ie the end result appears to be stable, productive and healthy use of tertiary and inferior functions as a natural part of the individuals psyche with near the strength and competence of a dominent or aux user of that function.

Empirically they seem to represent 9% of the population on a sample size of 2 million tests.

Have you guys heard of this before?

[MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION] you appear to have been brilliantly correct all this time, apologies.

Yes ENFP's about 9% of the population. LMAO! Ne + Fi (ENFP's) or Fi + Ne (INFP's) can produce some interesting outcomes.