[MBTI General] ISTJs/ESTJs Is there anyone who actually sees your true feelings?

[Fidelia]

Under what circumstances do people see your real feelings? Is there anyone who truly knows you? How do you differentiate between your inner circle and your aquaintances in what you would share? What makes it so uncomfortable to be explicit with how you feel?

Also, do you tend to discuss pros and cons with a person or just mentally make a (mostly unchangeable) decision of what route you plan to take? If it's the second one, on what do you base your choice and why do you feel discussion would be uncomfortable/unnecessary?

 

[Amira]

At this time my mom and my sister see the most of the "real me." I have an INTJ friend who lives across the country but when she and I get together we babble for hours on end and feel totally connected immediately. My best friend who lives nearby is not as much into books as I am and, as that is a huge part of me, I would say she knows me well but not as well as is possible. It takes a while for me to really let someone into my thoughts and plans but once they have been faithful to the friendship for a while then I will make an effort to share regularly even when it's hard to express, because I am trying to get better at expressing myself and letting people get close. One thing that's different for me from a lot of other types is I usually don't have a lot of dramatic emotion going on underneath the surface. I am very intense about my life but NOT in the up and down, depressed and ecstatic fashion. I should clarify that a LOT of my relatives are NTs so I have a lot of those characteristics too and the way to my emotions is in discussing facts and plans and ideas. While discussing those I will get excited and my thoughts start to flow and I open up a lot about my inner self.

There are some people who prefer less intense conversations and those people I have to make much more effort at befriending because that is not my natural way. In those situations it becomes hard for me to quickly figure out an answer to emotional questions because they feel weighty to me and not suitable for dropping into a light chat. If I meet someone for the first time and they ask me a question that takes some actual thought to answer and they really engage with me then it's not hard at all for them to be able to find out what makes me tick. Also, if someone strikes me as flaky and shallow then I will share VERY little of my emotions because why let someone in who doesn't care one way or another? Ditto if someone seems emotionally fragile - I would spend a lot more effort at casually helping bolster them a bit and soothe them some.

As far as pros and cons, I love researching things. It may seem like I make up my mind with very little input but that is because I already spent a lot of time thinking and researching about it. I might bounce ideas off someone but not usually because I need advice so much as to finish thinking through it. If someone wants to change my mind then I'll listen but if someone simply felt left out and tried to go over the whole process again just to be included, that would be rather frustrating. And I've had some people attack me for my choices who were arrogant and thought I was ignorant and needed to be informed so I could make the RIGHT choice, which is extremely insulting to any type, of course!

 

[Matthew_Z]

I've always considered myself independent. I'm a person of my own volition and don't need anyone else. Of course, since there are other people out there, I may as well make use of them.

I wouldn't imagine I share my real feelings with anyone. I'd doubt anyone truly knows me. However, unlike an INFP more "feely" type, I don't have a problem with that. I'm perfectly capable of managing things myself.

Generally, perhaps out of courtesy, I'll share as much as a person desires to know. If there is one exception to this rule, it is that I won't share information that I feel could jeopardize my security by your knowledge of it. The average person will get bored before they get much, of course.

 

[NewEra]

Under what circumstances do people see your real feelings? Is there anyone who truly knows you? How do you differentiate between your inner circle and your aquaintances in what you would share? What makes it so uncomfortable to be explicit with how you feel?

People very very rarely see my true feelings, but at the same time I don't express too much emotion to even myself. No one truly knows me, except myself, I will say that. In general, I don't like to share feelings or things of that nature at all. If I were to tell anyone, I would tell only a couple of people closest to me. As for what makes it uncomfortable... I myself don't know lol... I almost think of it as a weakness/waste of time.

Also, do you tend to discuss pros and cons with a person or just mentally make a (mostly unchangeable) decision of what route you plan to take? If it's the second one, on what do you base your choice and why do you feel discussion would be uncomfortable/unnecessary?

More of a pro-con list, I'm not really a planner at all.

 

[Fidelia]

the way to my emotions is in discussing facts and plans and ideas. While discussing those I will get excited and my thoughts start to flow and I open up a lot about my inner self.

I recognize this in the STJs that I know. It much the same way that for an NF talking about our experiences and the sense we make of them opens up our emotions.

As far as pros and cons, I love researching things. It may seem like I make up my mind with very little input but that is because I already spent a lot of time thinking and researching about it. I might bounce ideas off someone but not usually because I need advice so much as to finish thinking through it. If someone wants to change my mind then I'll listen but if someone simply felt left out and tried to go over the whole process again just to be included, that would be rather frustrating.

(Why is my quoting not working right???)

What if the decision affects the other person involved equally? (Eg two people who are married deciding about an investment, place to take a trip, what church to attend, how many kids to have, etc).

 

[Fidelia]

Matthew Z - What sorts of things do you feel would jeopardize your security? Would they be things that the other person could use as a weapon against you later?

Chosen One - Do you see sharing what you feel as a weakness/waste of time mostly because you use Thinking as your main function and so feel that the Feeling function is extraneous to the decisions you make?

Everyone - I want to understand this better. I cannot avoid feeling something and can't imagine how it would require thought to figure out what you feel. When something happens to you, what goes through your head first if it is not feelings??? I realize that some types are more independent than others. Are there really no moments when you wish that someone truly understood who you were all the way through? Or would that just feel like a big invasion of privacy?

Would you ever think over things that have happened in your life and assess what you liked and what should have been different? Most of the SJs I know would be more likely to just say "What is, is, so why worry about it?" So if that is indeed the case, what informs your future decisions and how do you go about gathering information?

 

[Matthew_Z]

Matthew Z - What sorts of things do you feel would jeopardize your security? Would they be things that the other person could use as a weapon against you later?

Everyone - I want to understand this better. I cannot avoid feeling something and can't imagine how it would require thought to figure out what you feel. When something happens to you, what goes through your head first if it is not feelings??? I realize that some types are more independent than others. Are there really no moments when you wish that someone truly understood who you were all the way through? Or would that just feel like a big invasion of privacy?

Would you ever think over things that have happened in your life and assess what you liked and what should have been different? Most of the SJs I know would be more likely to just say "What is, is, so why worry about it?" So if that is indeed the case, what informs your future decisions and how do you go about gathering information?

You hit the nail on the head for security. I wouldn't tell someone some information they could use as a weapon later if they ever decided to betray my trust.

You have to realize that for xSTJs, all situations have to go through our Te before it gets to our Fi. In my case, it has to go through my Ti as well. When faced with a situation, the first thing that comes to mind is "How do I deal with this?" From this point, I have one of two routes to take, both equally valid. (although I do take the second more often.) The first route is to figure out what I want to accomplish in the situation, and then figure out a way of how to get what I want. The second route is to analyze my situation, figure out my options, and then choose the one with the biggest net gain.

In my opinion, if someone has learned all of my secrets, my database has been compromised. The best way to keep a secret is to tell no one. If the best way for whatever reason is not applicable, the second best way to keep a secret is to tell one person, a confidant(e) and make sure they keep their mouth shut about it. The best way has a 100% success rate. The second way has a slightly lower chance of success. The important thing we would want from other people is to accept us, not understand us. Perhaps the extroverts are a little different, but that's how I feel.

Usually, before nodding off, I contemplate the day's actions and consider how what I learned today could be useful to note. It isn't as much a conscious effort of reflection as much as it is storing my previous experiences in the Si database.

 

[Fidelia]

Matthew Z, I like your way of explaining things. I understand analogies. What you wrote makes complete sense, although it's foreign to my way of processing. I guess that's why SJs also would place so much emphasis on what's been done in the past. It's a known outcome that becomes part of the database of what works or doesn't. Do you worry about people hacking into your database if you haven't chosen to compromise the information by sharing it? What is the penalty for hackers who attempt to access unauthorized information?

 

[Matthew_Z]

Matthew Z, I like your way of explaining things. I understand analogies. What you wrote makes complete sense, although it's foreign to my way of processing. I guess that's why SJs also would place so much emphasis on what's been done in the past. It's a known outcome that becomes part of the database of what works or doesn't. Do you worry about people hacking into your database if you haven't chosen to compromise the information by sharing it? What is the penalty for hackers who attempt to access unauthorized information?

Well, I'm glad to hear my communication skills have been effective.

I don't really worry about my database being hacked. I designed the security myself. You have to be me to access my database. Any outside evidence that could be used to reverse-engineer the database has been secured. (IE: I'm very sure my online security is up to par. Anything someone could find out in 30 minutes and the correct web tools is something I don't mind them finding.)

If someone's trying to get into my inner workings without asking, I usually respond by making them "earn it." They have to gain my trust, usually be exchanging their information first. Mutually Assured Destruction, if you will. They start spilling my secrets, I can spill theirs.

 

[EJCC]

Under what circumstances do people see your real feelings?

I'm a very expressive person, so a lot of people see my feelings. Just not ALL of my feelings. I try to keep my negative ones to myself. And sometimes I exaggerate my emotions for comedic purposes. So... I dunno.

Is there anyone who truly knows you?

I'll be honest - I don't like this question. Everyone I've talked to knows part of me. No one knows everything about me. I consider myself to be genuine (i.e. what you see is what you get), so I don't feel like there's a "real me", versus a "fake me". It's all me. There are just many different facets to it.

How do you differentiate between your inner circle and your aquaintances in what you would share?

I'm more open about my INNER feelings to my inner circle - the feelings that I don't want to think about, let alone talk about, but that I feel like might make me feel better to get out into the open. But for me, like what Amira said, it's a big event to do this. It's draining, and can make me sad and introspective for many hours afterwards. So I don't like to do that any more than I feel is necessary.

What makes it so uncomfortable to be explicit with how you feel?

The instinctual reaction of: "GAH EMOTIONS SCARY AWKWARD NO NO NO RUN AWAY!" Emphasis on the word "awkward".
Revealing my true, hidden, very personal feelings (when they're negative) makes me feel small, weak and vulnerable. I hate hate HATE feeling like that. I want to be the strong one, not the weak one! (And I don't mean to offend with that statement - I hold that standard PRIMARILY to myself, and if I hold it towards others, it's subconscious.)

Also, do you tend to discuss pros and cons with a person or just mentally make a (mostly unchangeable) decision of what route you plan to take? If it's the second one, on what do you base your choice and why do you feel discussion would be uncomfortable/unnecessary?

Depends on how much I trust the people I'm working with. If I feel like I'm "the only capable one", I'll work on my own. Otherwise, with capable people who have expertise (especially when their expertise is in areas that mine is not), back-and-forth is great. I like teamwork.

(Why is my quoting not working right???)

It's because you need to put a [/QUOTE] at the end of each quote you make.

Everyone - I want to understand this better. I cannot avoid feeling something and can't imagine how it would require thought to figure out what you feel. When something happens to you, what goes through your head first if it is not feelings??? I realize that some types are more independent than others. Are there really no moments when you wish that someone truly understood who you were all the way through? Or would that just feel like a big invasion of privacy?

I second everything that Matthew Z said on the point of what goes through our heads first. It's almost always "Now what?" Although sometimes there's emotion in there, but the change is minor; it just becomes "Oh god oh god now what do I do???" And it definitely feels like an invasion of privacy when people know me very well, even with close friends. Sometimes my ENTP friend will make a blunt comment about me - something that only one who knew me well would know - and my first thought will be "Oh, crap." It's back to the vulnerability thing, mostly. I would rather be seen as strong - it's easier for me. Although the database metaphor holds some water for me, too - but only some.

Would you ever think over things that have happened in your life and assess what you liked and what should have been different? Most of the SJs I know would be more likely to just say "What is, is, so why worry about it?" So if that is indeed the case, what informs your future decisions and how do you go about gathering information?

I agree with the SJs you know - what happened happened. I don't really see the point of wondering what WOULD have happened (except that if it weren't for that thought process, there would be no alternate-history sci-fi, and I love that stuff ), since it DIDN'T happen!
However, my past decisions DO inform my future decisions. The memories come up when they're needed. I just don't get hung up about them as much as others do.

 

[Fidelia]

Thanks for the quoting help!

EJCC - do you reveal your innermost feelings easily when they are positive?

And yes, I understand the different facets of you all being real. I think that happens with INFJs a lot. People think they are being inconsistent when they see a new side of the person, but they all are integrated parts. Some just don't come out right away. I think maybe with you though it is more sectioned off like a different character for whose company you are in. They are all you, but they are distinct. For me, I think it's more a flip in the amount of my transparency to let you see what you couldn't just a moment ago. Do you think that is accurate?

Matthew Z - Some types spill their secrets quite naturally with those they trust. In my experience, this rarely (if ever) results in potential Mutually Assured Destruction! Are there specific circumstances under which the MAD potential more likely occurs?

 

[EJCC]

No problem on the quoting help. It was mostly for my personal benefit - I would have gotten lost, and forgotten which questions I answered and which I didn't.

When my innermost feelings are positive, I reveal them! No problem! There's nothing to lose through being cheery. Happiness doesn't cause vulnerability, in my experience. But if that happiness was caused by a very personal thing, I'm not exactly going to tell that story to everyone I know. But I'm not going to hold my happiness in, e.g. at work, because based on my experience, it doesn't interfere with work quality.

I dunno if I'd use the transparency metaphor, but... maybe it's like an advent calendar. As days go by, more little doors are opened and you experience new, pleasant surprises (though it isn't usually candy ).

 

[Amira]

What if the decision affects the other person involved equally? (Eg two people who are married deciding about an investment, place to take a trip, what church to attend, how many kids to have, etc).

Well, I am about Recoleta's age and have never been married yet or in a very serious relationship, so there have been very few important decisions in my life that affect me and someone else equally. Who knows what I will do? Hopefully I'll be able to learn how to do it right and discuss and decide things well with my eventual husband.

 

[swordpath]

To those that are mere acquaintances and haven't earned my trust and friendship, I have no reason to confide in them anything that has to do with my feelings, or really anything that's substantial.

To those that are close to me and I care about, I tend not to let most in too deep. What they don't know can't hurt them. I don't want to burden anyone with my worries, insecurities, fears etc. and I also don't want them to think I'm weak. I want to be the one they can depend on to not collapse under the weight.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

EJCC: The instinctual reaction of: "GAH EMOTIONS SCARY AWKWARD NO NO NO RUN AWAY!" Emphasis on the word "awkward".
Revealing my true, hidden, very personal feelings (when they're negative) makes me feel small, weak and vulnerable. I hate hate HATE feeling like that. I want to be the strong one, not the weak one! (And I don't mean to offend with that statement - I hold that standard PRIMARILY to myself, and if I hold it towards others, it's subconscious.)

Is this only with your emotions or in dealing with other people's emotions as well?

 

[swordpath]

I want to be the strong one, not the weak one! (And I don't mean to offend with that statement - I hold that standard PRIMARILY to myself, and if I hold it towards others, it's subconscious.)

Same. I should have included that in my post. I just do a good job at internalizing the feelings I have and not putting them on display. I know this doesn't come as easy for everyone else and it's not something I'd look down on someone for.

 

[EJCC]

Is this only with your emotions or in dealing with other people's emotions as well?

Both. I tend to get awkward when others get emotional around me, too. With friends, I have a routine that I can go through (hand on shoulder and/or hugging, etc), but with people I don't know, I just freeze up. Yay for emotional intelligence.

 

[Amira]

Originally Posted by MDP2525
Is this only with your emotions or in dealing with other people's emotions as well?

Both. I tend to get awkward when others get emotional around me, too. With friends, I have a routine that I can go through (hand on shoulder and/or hugging, etc), but with people I don't know, I just freeze up. Yay for emotional intelligence.

LOL, I took one of those Emotional Intelligence tests online once where you look at series of eyes or mouths, etc., and scored in the... autism range. VERY disheartening for sure! Fortunately, in real life people tend to think I am a confident and friendly and slightly extroverted person so I must not be too bad, but I do have to think about what people would want when they are upset or super excited, because it does not come naturally to, say, go around hugging people like my ENFP sis does.

 

[NewEra]

Good thread so far. I like the questions, fidelia. Keep em coming.

 

[Fidelia]

Thanks Chosen One. You've been most accommodating and helpful!

Most of you have made reference to not wanting to feel vulnerable and wanting to be the strong one rather than the weak one. I have more questions then:

1. Have you considered that others don't like the feeling of being "the weak one" all the time. They want to feel that they have something worthwhile to offer you and that you might turn to them if you ever needed comfort.

2. Is it because you are worried that people will use your vulnerabilities against you that you do not share them?

3. Do you look down on those who do let their guard down to you? Do you wish they were more stoic or independent or less needy?

4. Is it more about how others will view you if you show weakness, or is it the panicky feeling you will induce in yourself by doing so?

5. Do you like the feeling of people relying on you when they are at a low point or need help with something, or do you find it an obligation?