[ISFJ] ISFJ Personality Traits - What does an unhealthy ISFJ look like?

[chatoyer]

Are they particularly skilled at guilt trips? Underhanded manipulation?

What are their defenses and tactics of choice when they want attention, control, etc.?

thanks!

 

[Totenkindly]

Are they particularly skilled at guilt trips? Underhanded manipulation?

What are their defenses and tactics of choice when they want attention, control, etc.? thanks!

• Subtle guilt trips through self-victimization
• Actively being a paragon of virtue, to use as leverage later ("If I'm perfect, then you have no excuse to be upset with me.")
• Generally passive-aggressive (occasionally downright aggressive if they feel justified or people they love are threatened)
• Self-pity/withdrawal/self-castigation
• Mentally able to block out things they don't want to address (denial and repression)
• Can keep record of wrongs easily
• Prone to wild speculation when things are forced outside the box (i.e., weak N abilities)

Those are the things I generally have experienced.

 

[chatoyer]

Example of a subtle guilt trip? Is it verbal? Or are they more busy, showing how industrious they are despite their fatigue, like a nonverbal complaint? Do they seem negative and overwhelmed?

Are they more prone to codependency?

 

[Totenkindly]

Example of a subtle guilt trip? Is it verbal? Or are they more busy, showing how industrious they are despite their fatigue, like a nonverbal complaint? Do they seem negative and overwhelmed?

Are they more prone to codependency?

Well, remember everyone is different, even within a particular MBTI type. Different strategies sometimes are favored based on past experience(s).

Well, for example, they tend to go for comments or actions that insinuate the other person isn't doing their share or is irresponsible (while the ISFJ is responsible). Sometimes it's even a little more direct: "It would be nice sometimes if I didn't have to always do everything around here."

I think one thing to keep in mind is that usually the ISFJ is trying to be perfect and trying NOT to have relational needs (they like to give, give, give, without directly asking, because they don't want to be a burden or impose); but inside they will feel a lot of resentment if they feel like the other person is taking advantage of them and they are doing. There is a lot of guilt if they are not able to perfectly carry out their self-assigned responsibilities.

So usually it's not that they are trying to be cruel or manipulative (although anyone can be), often it seems to be the "I'm trying so hard to do everything right and be responsible, but it's not working and I'm really upset inside... yet the perfect person does not complain about their responsibilities so i can't say anything.")

There does tend to be some codependency things, depending on the relational expectations they were brought up with. And the more introverted the ISFJ is, the more their world tends to revolve around just a few people... which often isn't fair to those people, since the ISFJ might get clingy or want a lot of their time and energy, more than they have to give. If it's someone like a spouse or a child or some other relationship with predefined expectations, it's very easy to judge the other partner as deficient if they are not following the "rules" as the ISFJ has learned them: "You are my spouse, therefore you should be making me feel loved or <whatever else>."

I'd say that the tendency to give based on the ISFJ's scrupulous need to be responsible (rather than what the partner deserves/reciprocates), plus the ISFJ's tendency to have just a few really really close relationships, can lead them to be codependent more than some other types. They want the closeness, and they can easily be taken advantage of.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

 

[Usehername]

*overwhelmed by emotions they refuse to admit even exist (Fe does not help out Si in self-preservation mode, meaning Si gets all distorted)

*the world is against them (it's not that they don't trust you, it's that they don't trust the world, so the world is going to pwn you no matter what you do). xSxJ doomsday beliefs at their worst.

*works self day in and day out with no breaks for incredibly unreasonable amounts of time, until their bodies give out and they get sick. Then, the unhealthy ISFJ puts on guilt trips that everyone else didn't kick in to try to fight the world as hard as they did while the ISFJ was out of commission.

*never asks for help, and takes it very personally that you didn't rescue them and join in their crusade against the world

 

[The Ü™]

You and I actually share a similar sense of humor.

 

[chatoyer]

@ photo

I forget I'm talking to a bunch of NTs, precision in my question!!!

(How does an unhealthy ISFJ behave??!!)

 

[quietgirl]

• Subtle guilt trips through self-victimization
• Actively being a paragon of virtue, to use as leverage later ("If I'm perfect, then you have no excuse to be upset with me.")
• Generally passive-aggressive (occasionally downright aggressive if they feel justified or people they love are threatened)
• Self-pity/withdrawal/self-castigation
• Mentally able to block out things they don't want to address (denial and repression)
• Can keep record of wrongs easily
• Prone to wild speculation when things are forced outside the box (i.e., weak N abilities)

Those are the things I generally have experienced.

Very true. They also can get VERY stubborn and generally uncooperative. Also, they can get very critical of others when the criticism should be pointed inwards. I can tell my boyfriend's starting to do this when I bring up a problem I have with something he did or said and he immediately starts reciting a list of every single thing I've ever done to hurt him. He's also quick to point out anything he can think of that would shift the blame to me. When it gets to that point, I just leave the room or the apartment until he calms down - and when I get back, he always apologizes and feels terrible about his behavior.

I've found the best way to deal with these behaviors is simply by giving the ISFJ some space to calm the heck down. There are issues in my relationship with an ISFJ that have had to be settled weeks after the fact because my boyfriend's stress/depression level was so high that he started exhibiting these behaviors.

My boyfriend responds positively when I distance myself because he's acting out of line. It's how I demand respect and works a lot better than going on an emotional rant about how I deserve respect. Simply talking to him when he's depressed or stressed doesn't get much accomplished. He needs to see consequences of his actions when he's all caught up in his "stubborn martyr mode". Usually once the consequences are laid out in front of him, he will not cross the line again. Since both of us stopped putting up with destructive behavior from each other (I have my own set of unhealthy behaviors), our relationship's gotten a million times better.

 

[quietgirl]

I think one thing to keep in mind is that usually the ISFJ is trying to be perfect and trying NOT to have relational needs (they like to give, give, give, without directly asking, because they don't want to be a burden or impose); but inside they will feel a lot of resentment if they feel like the other person is taking advantage of them and they are doing. There is a lot of guilt if they are not able to perfectly carry out their self-assigned responsibilities.

So usually it's not that they are trying to be cruel or manipulative (although anyone can be), often it seems to be the "I'm trying so hard to do everything right and be responsible, but it's not working and I'm really upset inside... yet the perfect person does not complain about their responsibilities so i can't say anything.")

Jennifer's commented reminded me of an example...

There was a situation in my relationship where my ISFJ boyfriend had an ex girlfriend who tried to interfere with our relationship. He dealt with the situation in his own way, but in my eyes, that way was not very effective as she still continued to call us often. He ended up getting very upset with ME because he was not responding to her whatsoever and felt as though the way he handled the situation was the right way. He very much resented my opinion that more needed to be done because he honestly felt he had done everything he can and that he had done it with the utmost respect for me & the relationship. He kept a lot of this inside and it ultimately surfaced in unhealthy ISFJ behaviors directed towards me because in his mind, I didn't see that he had done everything he possibly could do and that made him feel unappreciated.

 

[Sling]

• Subtle guilt trips through self-victimization
• Actively being a paragon of virtue, to use as leverage later ("If I'm perfect, then you have no excuse to be upset with me.")
• Generally passive-aggressive (occasionally downright aggressive if they feel justified or people they love are threatened)
• Self-pity/withdrawal/self-castigation
• Mentally able to block out things they don't want to address (denial and repression)
• Can keep record of wrongs easily
• Prone to wild speculation when things are forced outside the box (i.e., weak N abilities)

Those are the things I generally have experienced.

I agree with this.

Sometimes it seems they are more like problem-relishers rather than problem-solvers, dwelling on every aspect of misery, inconvenience, and strife of the situation("We're all going to die..and it's your fault!!", rather than "How did this happen, and what can we do to fix it").

It's very hard to make them happy when they are in this mood. I think arguments for them isn't so much about figuring out a problem or making a point as it is about them indirectly asking for some kind of emotional support(no idea what that would be, probably differs from person to person). This paragraph is purely speculative, and I might be wrong.

If you deal with them calmly and logically address the problem like a T would, they won't accept they are wrong. Instead, they will go outside and try to undo the lugnuts on their tire with their teeth to keep themselves in a frustrated and determined despair while they contemplate their next campaign. Their ability to dodge reasoning like Neo dodges bullets, and to re-introduce even the most overinflated of insignificant events that happened years ago, allows them to have epic arguments. Much like a D&D game. As I said before, their arguing isn't always means to an end as it is with T's, but rather a request for emotional fulfillment of some sort.

Thus arguing will get you nowhere with them. Attack the root of the flame, rather than the flames themselves. In fire theory, a fire needs 3 things to burn. Fuel, oxygen, and heat. So, consider fuel as an idea or object that they can obsess over. You can't really cut these off with reasoning, as they will fabricate more. Heat could represent the emotions that react with the fuel. That is where you need to address them. You could cut off their oxygen supply, but that could cause brain damage, and will cause the fire to explode into an even more violent inferno when the oxygen is reintroduced to the heat and fuel. Trust me here. My dad tried it. It only got him arrested, and then the argument continued over the police telephone.

Unhealthy ISFJ=self defeating to the max.

I think you can add general neurosis to the list as well.

No need to thank me here. Just be appreciative of the misfortune of my having an intimate knowledge of unhealthy ISFJ's.

 

[INA]

I think arguments for them isn't so much about figuring out a problem or making a point as it is about them indirectly asking for some kind of emotional support(no idea what that would be, probably differs from person to person). This paragraph is purely speculative, and I might be wrong.

If you deal with them calmly and logically address the problem like a T would, they won't accept they are wrong. Instead, they will go outside and try to undo the lugnuts on their tire with their teeth to keep themselves in a frustrated and determined despair while they contemplate their next campaign.

Maybe they are most frustrated that you start with the proposition that they are wrong and will be brought over to see why they are wrong if you apply your trusty logic and calm. Then the problem isn't what irked them in the first place, but your cool, implacable assuredness that they are the one with the problem.

 

[Sling]

Maybe they are most frustrated that you start with the proposition that they are wrong and will be brought over to see why they are wrong if you apply your trusty logic and calm. Then the problem isn't what irked them in the first place, but your cool, implacable assuredness that they are the one with the problem.

Nah, I don't think that is how they operate. I don't think mental input has any effect on them when they are in this state, rational or otherwise.

In other words, what you are saying and what they want to hear might affect totally different mental circuits.

If you use rationality, part of their brain will filter it out and discard it long before you decide to process it. If you throw back heated irrationality, it is like dumping some kernels into a bowl of already cooking popcorn.

 

[INA]

I can see what your ISFJ has to contend with

 

[Sling]

I can see what your ISFJ has to contend with

Haha. Contention is the wrong concept. Rather than try to hit back, you have to deflect her arm with one hand, and inject her in her then exposed neck with the other. I mean metaphorically speaking...Or do I.

 

[INA]

::

 

[quietgirl]

Sling's right about the self defeating nature and worthless arguing. Honestly? There's no use arguing when an ISFJ is at an unhealthy state because it not only will be fruitless, but it will also come off as attacking - especially if you appear "cold". As an NF, I'd feel the same way if someone came at me trying to solve my emotional problem with cold hard logic.

I find figuring out the root of the problem and supporting them through it works best. A lot of what is emotionally spilling out at the time an ISFJ explodes is build up from not expressing the problem in the first place. I know my boyfriend will rant & rave about everything related or unrelated to the problem and be generally inconsolable. ISFJ's are fairly dependent beings and I have learned that letting them be dependent on you for support actually helps them build their own confidence and become more independently confident.

The best solution I've found to the problem is to weed through the complaining to figure out the actual problem and then figure out a workable solution. For example, my boyfriend has a huge lack of self confidence. It affects EVERYTHING he does and when he's really down on himself or in a position where he needs to have confidence, he starts to turn into an unhealthy ISFJ. When he starts the unhealthy behavior, I don't even bother arguing and I don't let him blame me. Instead, I start helping him build his confidence. When he had a lot of job interviews, I would drive him and give him tons of verbal support. After the interview, I'd let him tell me all about it & let him know that he did a great job. I helped him get back into school so he could continue to do a career that he enjoyed & I am always there to help him study the subjects where he struggles. I let him know when I'm proud of him and I let him know his good qualities when he's beating himself up over the bad. It really does help deter the unhealthy behaviors and helps him to push forward & do more things independently.

 

[Giggly]

Sling, maybe you should try dating NT's to relieve yourself of this problem.

 

[Fuent]

My mom is an ISFJ and let me tell you... She's such a nice lady but for some reason she annoys me sooooooooooooooooo much. Wants to know so many details. I feel like she's trying to trap me but she says that it's because she's just worried. Either way it's really annoying.

 

[Pavilion]

My mom is an ISFJ and let me tell you... She's such a nice lady but for some reason she annoys me sooooooooooooooooo much. Wants to know so many details. I feel like she's trying to trap me but she says that it's because she's just worried. Either way it's really annoying.

Heh, I'm in the same boat. Every time a new friend of mine meets my mom they always tell me "Your mom is so nice/awesome/cool/etc.". My typical response is one of heavily reluctant agreement and in the cases when the heavy reluctance doesn't go unnoticed I have to explain that while don't necessarily disagree with them, I have to put annoying at the top of my list of adjectives that describe her.

She always has to finish her thoughts even when it's been made perfectly clear that she need not go on, when I'm having conversations with her she always spouts off the same redundant things over and over again, she doesn't seem to realize when conversations are over and so I'm stuck listening to a broken record until I leave the room (and she talks to herself so I might still hear her when she wanders by afterwards - her words are like the drops in that form of torture where the victim has drops of water falling on there head constantly until it drives them insane), she's constantly interrupting me when I'm alone and thinking (in my prime) and tells me that she might as well do it then because I never want to talk anyways (which is perfectly true when the subject involves how she wants me to get this stain out of my shirt or how she stumbled upon such a great deal on peanut butter, etc.), she'll knock but won't wait for a response and just barge in so she can finish her repetitive tasks without any concern for my privacy, she's always asking my opinion but completely ignores me when I answer her and immediately follows up my response with her own opinion....I could go on and on.