Is it just me?

[Xander]

Well, if you would deign to come down from your fluffly little flu cloud, you pseudo-angel, there could be a meeting ground.

But but but meeting the ground is scary!! I can't understand how you can live with being so close to it.

Oh no, I couldn't stare you out, I may stare you down though.

Wait. I've fallen down a hole?

I think it wasn't the motherboard that got wet there. :rolli:

Well no as it turned out it wasn't just the motherboard

New motherboard, processor and power supply!!! Mind you though I now have new shinies

I did not say one is the absence of the other - I asked is flight possible without rest. One defines the other. Do you really know what is flight if you have not rested. Do you know what is rest if you've not flown.

One does not start as the other stops. Your definition is imprecise.
(<<<INTP. = Definer. )

I thought INTPs were good on details.

How many INTPs do you know?

I'm as much an ENFP as you are an ENTP.

Well according to that acctualised type thingummy I'm quite ENFP myself actually. Personally I blame Dom.

You don't have to stoop to get there actually.

No this hole I appear to have stumbled upon has suddenly lowered my expectations.

Ah. That's a matter of perspectives. That which you call gray is but fine lines of black and white beyond your vision.

Interspersed lines of black and white is grey. The question is what idiot put all these lines in here? They are obviously false as lines are unnatural. I blame the SJs

Ahhh. Wisdom from my favourite ENFJ.

Wisdom? ENFJ? Oh boy. Try standing upright for a while.
Whaddya mean you are standing up?
Oh.

 

[INTJMom]

:hi: Sheila!!! How you doin?

Would you marry my daughter?

Well with an out of shape 30 year old on it I'd best go for durability eh?

Yeah never truely got on with skateboards per se when I was young. Too highly strung. They'd rock under my feet. I was the only guy to alter mine so that only the front trucks had any steering and the back truck was locked. Couldn't get to grips with the four wheel steering convention

I see. How about a scooter - a skateboard with a steering mechanism?

High S factor? Who me? Nothing would surprise me in that regard though I'd not class myself as ever ISTP. I can't do the whole literal logic for that long without including some form of induction... Either that or I'm just defining it too harshly.

After reading further about your "exploits" as a skateboarder, I take it back.

Well it was a day ending in day so quite possibly yes

Anyhow surely to know if it's a mid life crisis I'd have to know how long I'm going to live?

So you live in perpetual crisis... and how long have you HAD this problem?

See now this is where my thinking wanders now. Is it the "real world" or is it simply a different set of ideals? Is one superior to another or simply more acceptable?

You INTPs always have to complicate everything! :rolli:
It's the world we're forced to deal with. Life is hard, sometimes it hurts, sometimes our dreams don't come true. Sometimes that's more of a let down than we can manage. We get cynical. We lose our child-like wonder. We give up on dreaming. Most people die long before they're put in the grave.

That's one reason why my ESTP is both berated and praised. Sometimes you need someone who'll do something random just to make you see that not everything has to be perfect to work.

Exactly. I have learned this from my ISTP husband.​

Just one request. Can I mostly stay in and have some fun?

yes?

But you must get a scooter to get to work on! It may be motorized if you prefer.

 

[white]

But but but meeting the ground is scary!! I can't understand how you can live with being so close to it.

"Keep your eyes on the stars, and your feet on the ground."

Wait. I've fallen down a hole?

"Tact is the ability to tell a man he has an open mind when he has a hole in his head"

Well no as it turned out it wasn't just the motherboard

New motherboard, processor and power supply!!! Mind you though I now have new shinies

Congrats. I doubt they'd be thirsty this time around, so hold off the water, yea?

One does not start as the other stops. Your definition is imprecise.

(<<<INTP. = Definer. )

* I wasn't seeking to define. I asked that to explore why you felt anything less than flight was a giving up and a betrayal of self in a way.

How many INTPs do you know?

Enough to know they seldom see the wood for the trees - penchant to selectively seek a minutae of details to clarify endlessly and precisely to the order desired, if Ti is not balanced by Ne? But for no other end than to run the idea to its death. Trying to debate with an immature INTP is frequently a pointless exercise because they do not wish to engage, but merely to prove they are right?

Well according to that acctualised type thingummy I'm quite ENFP myself actually. Personally I blame Dom.

that's a possibility.

No this hole I appear to have stumbled upon has suddenly lowered my expectations.

"I do my thing and you do yours. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine. You are you and I am I, and if by chance we find each other, then it is beautiful. If not, it can't be helped."

Interspersed lines of black and white is grey. The question is what idiot put all these lines in here? They are obviously false as lines are unnatural. I blame the SJs

Why do you repeat everything I say?

Gaudi was an NP then.

Wisdom? ENFJ? Oh boy. Try standing upright for a while.
Whaddya mean you are standing up?
Oh.

Yes, ENFJ. Wisdom. The NFJ provides the bounds for the NTP to push against. The NTP cannot burn on their own. The NFJ provides the spark for the NTP, and the NTP clarifies the fire for the NFJ. In that meeting is wisdom. And balance.

 

[Xander]

What I wouldn't give to watch the hardcore NTs losing their lunch reading this one

Would you marry my daughter?

If she is one tenth as stunning as her mother then I'm sure I would be completely under her power within a breath of meeting her. Unfortunately I'm sure my fiancee would voice some objection.

I see. How about a scooter - a skateboard with a steering mechanism?

I was thinking the very same thing myself yesterday as I walked home.

After reading further about your "exploits" as a skateboarder, I take it back.

Oh I was always the INTP. I'd be the last to pick up how to ride one, the last to learn about a new trick but the first to do it right and also the last to get bored once a particular pursuit had caught my interest.

Believe it or not I first played D&D at the age of ten. I then spent about 6 years with no one to play with but I still bought the books and swatted up, designing characters just for myself. Quite sad really.

Oh and I'm definitely the only person I know of who spent six months in isolation with a book just to perfect one design. I found the perfect calibre of bullet according to the formulae represented in the book. It seemed so important and interesting at the time.

So you live in perpetual crisis... and how long have you HAD this problem?

Hmmm let me see..... roughly since I've been able to philosophise so probably since I was about early teens or something.

You INTPs always have to complicate everything!

This is why we have a crisis whilst you INTJs stride ahead rarely pausing to note that the INTP is still tearing their hair out over step one

It's the world we're forced to deal with. Life is hard, sometimes it hurts, sometimes our dreams don't come true. Sometimes that's more of a let down than we can manage. We get cynical. We lose our child-like wonder. We give up on dreaming. Most people die long before they're put in the grave.

A sad but profound truth. Also the reason I ended up with a sportscar before I was thirty. My mother always wanted one and diea never having owned one. The depressing thing was that she had the money saved up to buy two or three cheap ones so with my inheritance I made sure I lived that dream. Well within reason. She was an ISFJ and I'm certain she'd have been mortified if I'd have gone out and bought a Shelby Cobra or some such.

Exactly. I have learned this from my ISTP husband.

I thought that ISTPs were supposed to be very logical creatures? Kinda Spock like.

But you must get a scooter to get to work on! It may be motorized if you prefer.

Yeah you know this scooter idea.. I kinda INTP'd it on contact. I'm now looking for one with bigger wheels (better cruising capabilities and more able to conquer stones) lower riding height (to compensate for larger wheels) and proper brakes (so I don't have to shift my feet out of balance to brake). Any ideas?

 

[Xander]

"Keep your eyes on the stars, and your feet on the ground."

"Walk into lamp posts regularly." That is the next line isn't it?

"Tact is the ability to tell a man he has an open mind when he has a hole in his head"

Funny when a bloke does this for a female it's called being "charming" or some such nonsense. "No your arse looks adorable in that dear"

Congrats. I doubt they'd be thirsty this time around, so hold off the water, yea?

I was considering some sort of sponge inside the case. Just as a precautionary measure

* I wasn't seeking to define. I asked that to explore why you felt anything less than flight was a giving up and a betrayal of self in a way.

I don't. Refusal to fly though because of fear is not really healthy. Sometimes people need to be kicked off the branch and forced to fly or dive and sometimes they need to be given sedatives to be made to rest.

Enough to know they seldom see the wood for the trees - penchant to selectively seek a minutae of details to clarify endlessly and precisely to the order desired, if Ti is not balanced by Ne? But for no other end than to run the idea to its death. Trying to debate with an immature INTP is frequently a pointless exercise because they do not wish to engage, but merely to prove they are right?

Not details... concepts. Points of torque. These aren't details but essential points where maximum effect can be gained from minimal effort.

Oh and did you ever think that youthful INTPs argued with you because
A. You like to argue.
B. You wanted to win.
and most importantly
C. You're a smartass.
eh?

"I do my thing and you do yours. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine. You are you and I am I, and if by chance we find each other, then it is beautiful. If not, it can't be helped."

:hi: 9 here. Mediator. Oh and an NT. Answer is not acceptable. A resolution must be found.

Why do you repeat everything I say?

Why do you repeat everything I say?

Gaudi was an NP then.

That's nice. Who?

Yes, ENFJ. Wisdom. The NFJ provides the bounds for the NTP to push against. The NTP cannot burn on their own. The NFJ provides the spark for the NTP, and the NTP clarifies the fire for the NFJ. In that meeting is wisdom. And balance.

Not in my case. I've known too many NFJs. It's much more peaceful. You sure this isn't a whole ENTP thing?

 

[Domino]

*kicks Xander in the shin in a fiery yet oddly polite manner*

 

[white]

"Walk into lamp posts regularly." That is the next line isn't it?

Funny when a bloke does this for a female it's called being "charming" or some such nonsense. "No your arse looks adorable in that dear"

I was considering some sort of sponge inside the case. Just as a precautionary measure

I don't. Refusal to fly though because of fear is not really healthy. Sometimes people need to be kicked off the branch and forced to fly or dive and sometimes they need to be given sedatives to be made to rest.

Not details... concepts. Points of torque. These aren't details but essential points where maximum effect can be gained from minimal effort.

Oh and did you ever think that youthful INTPs argued with you because
A. You like to argue.
B. You wanted to win.
and most importantly
C. You're a smartass.
eh?


:hi: 9 here. Mediator. Oh and an NT. Answer is not acceptable. A resolution must be found.

Why do you repeat everything I say?

That's nice. Who?

Not in my case. I've known too many NFJs. It's much more peaceful. You sure this isn't a whole ENTP thing?

you're right. I shall go to sleep now.

Gaudi. Barcelona. Architecture. No straight lines in nature. The construct of La Sagrada Familia is fascinating. As with the model itself.

 

[INTJMom]

What I wouldn't give to watch the hardcore NTs losing their lunch reading this one

Now that you mention it, it does sound like fun.

If she is one tenth as stunning as her mother then I'm sure I would be completely under her power within a breath of meeting her.

My! You are quite the charmer! (She's an ISTJ, and of course, she's very pretty.)

Unfortunately I'm sure my fiancee would voice some objection.

Certainly she should! And, so would my daughter's boyfriend, I'm afraid.

I was thinking the very same thing myself yesterday as I walked home.

Great minds think alike!

Oh I was always the INTP. I'd be the last to pick up how to ride one, the last to learn about a new trick but the first to do it right and also the last to get bored once a particular pursuit had caught my interest.

Believe it or not I first played D&D at the age of ten. I then spent about 6 years with no one to play with but I still bought the books and swatted up, designing characters just for myself. Quite sad really.

Oh and I'm definitely the only person I know of who spent six months in isolation with a book just to perfect one design. I found the perfect calibre of bullet according to the formulae represented in the book. It seemed so important and interesting at the time.

Hmmm let me see..... roughly since I've been able to philosophise so probably since I was about early teens or something.

The life of an INTP seems oddly similar to the life of an INTJ.

This is why we have a crisis whilst you INTJs stride ahead rarely pausing to note that the INTP is still tearing their hair out over step one

I will have to remember that.

A sad but profound truth. Also the reason I ended up with a sportscar before I was thirty. My mother always wanted one and died never having owned one. The depressing thing was that she had the money saved up to buy two or three cheap ones so with my inheritance I made sure I lived that dream. Well within reason. She was an ISFJ and I'm certain she'd have been mortified if I'd have gone out and bought a Shelby Cobra or some such.

Well, I am glad she passed her dream on to you. I'd kinda enjoy a red 67 Mustang myself.

I thought that ISTPs were supposed to be very logical creatures? Kinda Spock like.

Oh, dear. Houston, we have a problem. I thought INTPs were the Spock-like ones!!

In my ISTP husband's case, logic must serve a practical purpose. Anything that is not practical, that is anti-expedient or inefficient is deemed illogical. He criticizes illogical thoughts only if they're ideas to be implemented. He is a magnificent trouble-shooter. He always has the best ideas for solving problems. They're always the least time consuming and most efficient ideas out of all those offered.

He doesn't spend time thinking about illogical thinking per se. His logic is directly S oriented.

Yeah you know this scooter idea.. I kinda INTP'd it on contact. I'm now looking for one with bigger wheels (better cruising capabilities and more able to conquer stones) lower riding height (to compensate for larger wheels) and proper brakes (so I don't have to shift my feet out of balance to brake). Any ideas?

Way to go! You're awesome!
My only advice is keep on doing the research, but don't forget to buy something.

 

[Xander]

*kicks Xander in the shin in a fiery yet oddly polite manner*

That's the ENFJ signature.

It always makes me laugh when my friend Mike starts a sentence with "I'm sorry to say but.." you just know that the recipient is about to get hung by their entrails in a brutally polite manner.

Gotta love the softly softly catchy monkey and fry the b*** in napalm approach

you're right. I shall go to sleep now.

If you're running those late hours again there'll be trouble. No sleep makes aelan a troubled girl.

Gaudi. Barcelona. Architecture. No straight lines in nature. The construct of La Sagrada Familia is fascinating. As with the model itself.

Ah. I get that now. Except there are straight lines in nature. It just depends on how you classify natural

 

[Xander]

Now that you mention it, it does sound like fun.

It's always nice when you can get the "emotionless" to the state of gibbering wrecks

My! You are quite the charmer! (She's an ISTJ, and of course, she's very pretty.)

A pretty ISTJ... now that'd take some getting used to. The ISTJ I know half the psychology is there in the ripped t-shirts, balding head and general lack of care on appearance.

Certainly she should! And, so would my daughter's boyfriend, I'm afraid.

Ah I see. Trying to get rid of the biker boyfriend. Cunning.

Great minds think alike!

I always thought that with INTPs and INTJs but my INTJ mate just says "yeah you wish". Ho hum.

The life of an INTP seems oddly similar to the life of an INTJ.

Oh probably mine does. My whole family were Js so I possibly picked up a little more INTJ when I was young. I figure that INTx youngersters all tend to have similar periods of seclusion to better involve themselves in their current fascination.

Well, I am glad she passed her dream on to you. I'd kinda enjoy a red 67 Mustang myself.[//quote]
Oh it's not necessarily something she would pass on willingly. All those things you are "supposed" to do.. they are always much more important. Well she dropped that before she died. Most disconcerting when your foundation parent, the sensible one, the dutiful one starts vociferously lusting after all the toned males on TV!

Oh, dear. Houston, we have a problem. I thought INTPs were the Spock-like ones!!

INTP = Data, ISTP = Spock. It's a whole nother House thread's worth in that one though.

In my ISTP husband's case, logic must serve a practical purpose. Anything that is not practical, that is anti-expedient or inefficient is deemed illogical. He criticizes illogical thoughts only if they're ideas to be implemented. He is a magnificent trouble-shooter. He always has the best ideas for solving problems. They're always the least time consuming and most efficient ideas out of all those offered.

He doesn't spend time thinking about illogical thinking per se. His logic is directly S oriented.

That's what I'd define as being more logical. I think INTPs employ logic but they themselves aren't as logical in practice as an ISTP.

My only advice is keep on doing the research, but don't forget to buy something.

Yeah, yeah. Always with the practical bit you INTJs. You just doubt the practicality of just having loads of ideas and stopping before they get implemented. It ensures that no bad ideas are implemented see?

[This will be about the millionth scheme that probably goes nowhere but hell the concept is fun.]

 

[INTJMom]

...
Ah I see. Trying to get rid of the biker boyfriend. Cunning.

No. I just like you, and I can't marry you myself.
Perhaps I could adopt you!

...
Most disconcerting when your foundation parent, the sensible one, the dutiful one starts vociferously lusting after all the toned males on TV!

Yeah, my kids don't like it either. I mean, I only did it once. You'd think I burned the house down or something!

INTP = Data, ISTP = Spock. It's a whole nother House thread's worth in that one though.

No. No. No. Spock is emotionless, cold and calculating. ISTPs are not like that.
INTPs are most capable of being like that, and we have already established that you are not a normal INTP.
ISTPs must above all else be unique and cool - as in "Joe Cool".
They are very witty and entertaining around their friends.
They're too casual and relaxed to be Spock.


PS: I'm talking about the original Spock...Leonard Nimoy.


I would sooner believe Spock was INTJ than believe he was ISTP.
SP = fun

imho

 

[Xander]

No. I just like you, and I can't marry you myself.

Bigamy not hot over their either eh? Oh well plan B.

Perhaps I could adopt you!

Yes mum. It'd never work you know. I just can't manage the whole "mom" thing without feeling like a surfer out of a bad american teen movie

Yeah, my kids don't like it either. I mean, I only did it once. You'd think I burned the house down or something!

Well I'll leave it to your imagination as to what my mother was referring to with much interest and excitement that silence my sister better than gagging her and sticking her in a sound proof booth!!

No. No. No. Spock is emotionless, cold and calculating. ISTPs are not like that.
INTPs are most capable of being like that, and we have already established that you are not a normal INTP.

Have you seen INTP Central? I'm one of the least emotional INTPs basically because I don't go around hating everything or tossing my hair back in frustration at the thought of interacting with an extrovert. Talk about a group of emos. INTPs are the worst!!

Anyhow whaddya mean not normal? Sez you. Typical INTJ huh?

ISTPs must above all else be unique and cool - as in "Joe Cool".

They are very witty and entertaining around their friends.

They're too casual and relaxed to be Spock.

Casual? Relaxed?
Insensitive, oblivious.
Potaytoe, potato.


Honestly though my only real reference to ISTPs is in terms of literal thinkers. An I that's the centre of a party just doesn't sound right as a guide and the other STs I know so don't support the whole "looking cool" unless that is meant as getting a response of from everyone. Like I said the ISTJ I know tends to turn up with t-shirts in tatters, slippers and hair all akimbo. It's just not what you would define as cool unless your name happens to be James May.

PS: I'm talking about the original Spock...Leonard Nimoy.

There's another Spock? No way!
Anyhow Spock doesn't see his own hypocrisy which I'd expect an INTP of similar age and intelligence to do so. An ISTP I'd imagine would be more prone to not notice the pattern of behaviour and remain oblivious to such things for longer.

Of course there are exceptions, caveats and contradictions to these patterns but if I went with that kind of thinking as standard then I may as well throw the whole typing system out.... again.

I would sooner believe Spock was INTJ than believe he was ISTP.

Nah. No where near superior enough to be an INTJ

SP = fun

Not after ten years of tidying up it's not!! Damn ESTPs!!!

imho

:rfol1: See!!! Humble.... INTJ... And you call ME weird!!!

 

[nightning]

I was actually noting that such "human interest" angles tend to engage people more. I guess I'm trying to be accommodating in my usual Ti fashion

I suppose that's true... I ought to give that a go myself. Except I couldn't figure out what details are required in the story. Practice :duh:

Oh what I wouldn't give to have clarity of image... I can't draw basically because I can't fix the image in my mind clearly. I'm jealous.

I wish that ability to mentally visualize something can be translated to drawing on paper. Well to a limited degrees it does, but I run out of working memory... far quicker than I can draw on page. I like your Ti logic though... how about we do some skill trading?

Anyhoo, the whole interest thing is precisely what I'm on about. It's virtually anything that I have specific interest in which garners that type of response. I'm thinking it has something to do with having an unformed filing system for information. When I recompile it the links aren't necessarily where people expect them to be.

That is very similar to my Ni mental filing system. For example, I go blue -> bird -> insect -> flower -> bullseye -> parachute. The theme for the first 5 words believe it or not is UV light.

It seems to me that people are over obsessed with the mundane and the systematic to even think of innovation half the time but I guess I appear as backwards to them as they do to me.

Nonetheless you need the mundane to keep yourself functional... and your family functional. When life becomes busy, you only got time for the mundane.

Everyone innovates when they're a child. It's called not knowing the "correct" response and so coming up with their own. It just seems to me that people go through half their life trying to be the same only to give up and be individuals when they are older and have gained enough gumption to actually say "balls to convention".

Ah sometimes it's the journey

I was looking for the perfect representation of this with the Garfield cartoon where Jon's saying something about a mad guy diving off a roof and falling to his death thinking he could fly with Garlfield running past him wearing a paisley cape saying "yeah but he didn't believe!!!".

Then the lack of innovation is laziness would you say? Laziness or the fear of breaking out.

I've actually seen that cartoon I think... a long long time ago when I still read comics.

Thinking about it I think that's just splitting hairs. Yes I do think that innovation is a sign of youth. It's common place in the young and rare in the "normal" "mature" *people* (read 'flock').

Flock or a herd of sheep? Well if you say it that way... I suppose it's true. Young at heart... speaks of letting loose and trying new/silly things. A pity people that many people lose it...

 

[FallsPioneer]

Really creative, Xander. :rolli:



Nah.

Anyhow, are you the innovator? Like nightning said, I'm more a combinator than an innovator. my ideas are very dependent on my environment/circumstances. I can take what little I have and really go to town with it.

Do you tend to get that look from people that intimates that they think you've just fallen off the back of a space lorry and hit your head? It's a mixed bag kinda; I could say something super creative or complex and some people I know will either be dismissive or , and there are some people to whom I could say something really stupid but disguise at something "creative" and they'd be impressed.

Why do people stop trying such things? I think it's because it lacks practicality. It's certainly fun to try new things, but a lot of people don't see that as important in the grand scheme of life. Some people probably wouldn't see your surfing idea as spectacular because they just want to get to Point B, and don't really care about going on an adventure.

What is it that dies within them? I figure that the "creative spirit" dies within some people after a while, but this is probably due to people rearranging their priorities.

Is it they who lose something or me who's gained/ lost something? blah blah blah it's all relative blah blah blah. That being said, I think there's always a loss and a gain with whatever trait, it just depends on what you value more. I think I'm more creative, but as I'm too used to it, I'm starting to really value practicality.

 

[INTJMom]

...
Have you seen INTP Central? I'm one of the least emotional INTPs basically because I don't go around hating everything or tossing my hair back in frustration at the thought of interacting with an extrovert. Talk about a group of emos. INTPs are the worst!!

Seriously. I didn't realize that. I thought they were all cool, calm, collected and impenetrable like BlueWing for instance... and Spock.

Anyhow whaddya mean not normal? Sez you. Typical INTJ huh?

Well, I meant it entirely in a good way... as a compliment... I did offer you my daughter, after all. I meant that you are not so stuffy and obnoxious like so many other INTPs.

Casual? Relaxed?
Insensitive, oblivious.
Potaytoe, potato.

Sorry to have caused confusion, but I have 2 ISTP men in my home: my husband, and my 17 year old son.

I always say, if it wasn't for my son, I'd never have any fun. He's always bringing excitement, adventure and danger into our lives. In all his choices, he MUST be "cool". Granted it's his own version of what he has decided is cool- which basically means looking like a beachbum/skateboarding dude/gangsta wannabe.

He is exceedingly charming. He once sold over 23 items in 1 1/2 hours going door to door in our neighborhood! He is very well liked by his friends. Before he got his driver's license, his friends were very willing to come and get him and bring him to other homes to "hang out". He's astonishingly honest.

Honestly though my only real reference to ISTPs is in terms of literal thinkers. An I that's the centre of a party just doesn't sound right as a guide and the other STs I know so don't support the whole "looking cool" unless that is meant as getting a response of from everyone.

Your description of ISTPs doesn't seem to compute with my experience. Well, not really the 'center' of the party, but definitely someone the other guys like to have around.

Like I said the ISTJ I know tends to turn up with t-shirts in tatters, slippers and hair all akimbo. It's just not what you would define as cool unless your name happens to be James May.

You are describing an SLOB.

My ISTPs and ISTJ are not anything alike.


Just as an example, this is an ISTJ (not my daughter).

This is an ISTP (not my son, but my son can do this).

There's another Spock? No way!

I don't know. I always hated Star Trek, and I wasn't sure who are the players in the remakes.

Anyhow Spock doesn't see his own hypocrisy which I'd expect an INTP of similar age and intelligence to do so. An ISTP I'd imagine would be more prone to not notice the pattern of behaviour and remain oblivious to such things for longer.

I didn't know Spock well enough to know he was a hypocrite.

Of course there are exceptions, caveats and contradictions to these patterns but if I went with that kind of thinking as standard then I may as well throw the whole typing system out.... again.

Well, you're right about that. It appears we are both wrong.

Nah. No where near superior enough to be an INTJ

Didn't he think he was superior?

Not after ten years of tidying up it's not!! Damn ESTPs!!!

Well, not fun for you if you have to clean up the mess, but SPs are still the fun ones out of the 4 basic groups.

:rfol1: See!!! Humble.... INTJ... And you call ME weird!!!

Well, I did agonize over whether or not to add the "h".
It's no secret I am a defective INTJ.

 

[Xander]

I suppose that's true... I ought to give that a go myself. Except I couldn't figure out what details are required in the story. Practice :duh:

You know the "stream of conciousness" approach? Where the ideas just flow through your brain like water. I just kinda took that internal conversation and added some highlighting real world results. Make it into a story like those ones they suggest for better memory retention.

I wish that ability to mentally visualize something can be translated to drawing on paper. Well to a limited degrees it does, but I run out of working memory... far quicker than I can draw on page.

Sounds like you need more RAM

I like your Ti logic though... how about we do some skill trading?

I've been told I have an excess of Ti so you could well pinch some. It could be beneficial.. the operation is a bit of a worry though.

That is very similar to my Ni mental filing system. For example, I go blue -> bird -> insect -> flower -> bullseye -> parachute. The theme for the first 5 words believe it or not is UV light.

Sorry, lost you at insect. I was on cliff

Nonetheless you need the mundane to keep yourself functional... and your family functional. When life becomes busy, you only got time for the mundane.

Functional? Odd really as I usually find that one of the few times that people appreciate the way think is when the smelly brown stuff goes into the fan. Mind you those are also usually the simplest and least fun to come up with solutions.. guess I should learn something from that

Then the lack of innovation is laziness would you say? Laziness or the fear of breaking out.

I'd hesitate to go as far to say for definite that lack of innovation is lack of effort applied to thinking but yes it does often appear that such is true. I never figured out what was being avoided other than the effort involved in the thinking. Mind you I think my examples are extroverts who tend to avoid the introverted thinking that is often involved... well at least as far as I've experienced (being a Ti user of course ).

I've actually seen that cartoon I think... a long long time ago when I still read comics.

Do you remember the one where "Karate Cat" is demonstrating his amazing chop, chops the table leg bringing it all down upon his head and finishing with the quote "Karate cat also show lack of foresight". Now that one is almost a motto for me

Flock or a herd of sheep? Well if you say it that way... I suppose it's true. Young at heart... speaks of letting loose and trying new/silly things. A pity people that many people lose it...

My art teacher illustrated best what it is that children posses which adults lose. Perspective. For example a child tends to draw people with really large hands, that's perfect perspective. of course it's not very well refined but it's there. By the time that people are "taught" how to draw they have to be told all about perspective from the bottom up, like they've forgotten everything about it.

Really creative, Xander. :rolli:

You sound just like my INTJ mate
There no 'pat on the head' but I get the drift.

Nah.

Yeah he never includes that bit

Anyhow, are you the innovator? Like nightning said, I'm more a combinator than an innovator. my ideas are very dependent on my environment/circumstances. I can take what little I have and really go to town with it.

I'd have to wonder if any INTJ really feels like an inventor or innovator. I'd guess that when you've pulled all the information in and start to build the answer like the formation of a planet round an objects gravity then it feels less like design or innovation and more like just simply assembling the parts like a DIY kit. Shame really as some of these oh so obvious conclusions are sometimes a lot more worthy of praise than their creator recognises. Conversely of course sometimes they aren't so good an answer no matter how blue in the face the person gets defending it to the last.

Do you tend to get that look from people that intimates that they think you've just fallen off the back of a space lorry and hit your head? It's a mixed bag kinda; I could say something super creative or complex and some people I know will either be dismissive or , and there are some people to whom I could say something really stupid but disguise at something "creative" and they'd be impressed.

I can lose my INTJs friends thought train sometimes. Not because it's all too complex or that it includes too much information but most often because of what is left out. Often the explanation leaves out some secret which is key to understanding the sequence and quite often what bemuses me the most is some of the information which is cut out as "irrelevant". INTJs suck in a hell of a lot of information and yet seem to end up including less in their end theory than an INTP does.

mind you some of those "efficient" trains of thinking are beautifully simple... sometimes brutally simply

Why do people stop trying such things? I think it's because it lacks practicality. It's certainly fun to try new things, but a lot of people don't see that as important in the grand scheme of life. Some people probably wouldn't see your surfing idea as spectacular because they just want to get to Point B, and don't really care about going on an adventure.

See I never saw the direct link between practicality and importance. Practicality I always associated more with objectivity and importance with subjectivity though I guess all such things are interlinked.

No doubt as an NT you are familiar with the frustration at how things are done based on the famous "cause I said so" or "cause that's how it's done". Do you ever get the impression that if people spent just a few more minutes thinking about things instead of just following some book or guide then things may work a little better?

What is it that dies within them? I figure that the "creative spirit" dies within some people after a while, but this is probably due to people rearranging their priorities.

Seems an odd thing to get rid of to me but I guess that's my priorities.

Is it they who lose something or me who's gained/ lost something? blah blah blah it's all relative blah blah blah. That being said, I think there's always a loss and a gain with whatever trait, it just depends on what you value more. I think I'm more creative, but as I'm too used to it, I'm starting to really value practicality.

You're an impractical INTJ? Surely such would produce the apocalypse?

Seriously. I didn't realize that. I thought they were all cool, calm, collected and impenetrable like BlueWing for instance... and Spock.

Just look for the background angst and the level of moans, raves and rants produced by such a group of "emotionless" people. One of life's little ironies I guess.

Well, I meant it entirely in a good way... as a compliment... I did offer you my daughter, after all. I meant that you are not so stuffy and obnoxious like so many other INTPs.

Was kidding. Jeez.


Anyhow why can't I be obnoxious? Sounds fun

Sorry to have caused confusion, but I have 2 ISTP men in my home: my husband, and my 17 year old son.

As far as I know I lack any ISTP example in my friends and family so I have no decent frame of reference except dry text from books. I'm confused because what you present is contrary to that which I understood to be true. That's a good thing in my book.

I always say, if it wasn't for my son, I'd never have any fun. He's always bringing excitement, adventure and danger into our lives. In all his choices, he MUST be "cool". Granted it's his own version of what he has decided is cool- which basically means looking like a beachbum/skateboarding dude/gangsta wannabe.

He is exceedingly charming. He once sold over 23 items in 1 1/2 hours going door to door in our neighborhood! He is very well liked by his friends. Before he got his driver's license, his friends were very willing to come and get him and bring him to other homes to "hang out". He's astonishingly honest.

Your description of ISTPs doesn't seem to compute with my experience. Well, not really the 'center' of the party, but definitely someone the other guys like to have around.

You sure he's not an ESTP? Sounds a lot like my missus when she was young. Hmm definitely sounds EP or IJ to me based on the whole drinking in life's experiences.

You are describing an SLOB.

Actually he's quite an affable bloke, just totally not thinking in accordance with common thinking regarding etiquette and such.

My ISTPs and ISTJ are not anything alike.


Just as an example, this is an ISTJ (not my daughter).

This is an ISTP (not my son, but my son can do this).

Okay I freaked when I saw those photos. I thought you'd really started to use family photos as examples!!

I guess it's one of those typing stereotypes that's hard to lose. For example I really can't see how you'd get a sultry INTP for example. I guess they could well exist but it just doesn't rhyme with what I conceive as what an INTP would be.

I don't know. I always hated Star Trek, and I wasn't sure who are the players in the remakes.

Oh there's only one Leonard Nemoy. Lesser mortals tried to do the sign later but failed to keep the magic (mind you though in the pilot even ol' Spock stank!!).

I didn't know Spock well enough to know he was a hypocrite.

It's more the emotional drive to cling to removing emotion for fear of what having emotion would do to them as a race. Hypocrisy.

Well, you're right about that. It appears we are both wrong.

Meh it's always the same. Everyone is wrong, that's just the way we are.

Didn't he think he was superior?

I was being sarcastic. Saying that Spock was superior but just not superior enough to be an INTJ

Well, not fun for you if you have to clean up the mess, but SPs are still the fun ones out of the 4 basic groups.

Chaotic. I like the word chaotic more. I woudln't argue with that... I doubt anyone would. Well anyone that knows a dappy ESFP that is

Well, I did agonize over whether or not to add the "h".

Nice to see that you haven't lost touch completely with the INTJ side of the force

It's no secret I am a defective INTJ.

Yeah empathy and stuff. What on earth do you think you're playing at girl?

 

[INTJMom]

...
I'd have to wonder if any INTJ really feels like an inventor or innovator.

I have had many great ideas for inventions over the years, but I have never had any way of getting them implemented. For instance, in 1972, I was sleeping at my aunt's house, and it was very cold, and I had to get up in the middle of the night to go to the loo. That seat was freezing cold! Immediately, I thought of inventing the heated toilet seat! It was a great idea, and of course, now they have them. One of the things I frequently say is, "Necessity is the mother of invention," because it surely is. I have always thought of my self as an inventor even though I haven't ever patented anything.

...
INTJs suck in a hell of a lot of information and yet seem to end up including less in their end theory than an INTP does.

I have noticed this is true for myself, and I just learned why recently. INTJs use DomNi which is based on principles. This is a significant factor in my life. I have always been a huge fan of "wise sayings". Wise sayings are always true for all times; that's why I like them. So my thinking is based on principles, and therefore I tend to share the principle of the idea rather than the whole train of the idea from start to finish (which I personally find exhausting). So I think that's why our theories are shorter.

...
As far as I know I lack any ISTP example in my friends and family so I have no decent frame of reference except dry text from books. I'm confused because what you present is contrary to that which I understood to be true. That's a good thing in my book.

I know how you feel. Before I came to this website a few months ago, I was convinced all INTPs were maniacal sociopaths. But that was from personal experience.

You sure he's not an ESTP? Sounds a lot like my missus when she was young. Hmm definitely sounds EP or IJ to me based on the whole drinking in life's experiences.

Good God save me, I hope not! ... Oh phew! ...I just remembered, the ISTP profile suits him much more appropriately than the ESTP profile does. He's actually quite shy and reserved, normally. But when he decides to turn on the charm... well, it's his gift.

I guess it's one of those typing stereotypes that's hard to lose. For example I really can't see how you'd get a sultry INTP for example. I guess they could well exist but it just doesn't rhyme with what I conceive as what an INTP would be.

I think Kate Beckinsdale is supposed to be an INTP. She looks pretty sultry to me:

The Olsen twins, Mary-Kate and Ashley are supposedly also INTPs.
They have a similar style to this.

 

[ygolo]

Encouragement? How so?

Somehow, when I got that look. I just knew, somehow, I was onto something cool. Especially when they came back to see it work.

Unfortunately, now adays my ideas need other people to buy-in before I can make it work. Really inconvenient.

Do you not find that it's an off shoot of looking at things sideways?

Maybe. I notice different things from most people. I attributed it having a global, instead of sequential learning style.

 

[Xander]

I have had many great ideas for inventions over the years, but I have never had any way of getting them implemented. For instance, in 1972, I was sleeping at my aunt's house, and it was very cold, and I had to get up in the middle of the night to go to the loo. That seat was freezing cold! Immediately, I thought of inventing the heated toilet seat! It was a great idea, and of course, now they have them. One of the things I frequently say is, "Necessity is the mother of invention," because it surely is. I have always thought of my self as an inventor even though I haven't ever patented anything.

When I had a hairdresser, when I was young, he apparently invented a fragrancing toilet seat.

That would be one way of truly saying "mine don't stink" I guess

I have noticed this is true for myself, and I just learned why recently. INTJs use DomNi which is based on principles. This is a significant factor in my life. I have always been a huge fan of "wise sayings". Wise sayings are always true for all times; that's why I like them. So my thinking is based on principles, and therefore I tend to share the principle of the idea rather than the whole train of the idea from start to finish (which I personally find exhausting). So I think that's why our theories are shorter.

Odd. My INTJ friend seems opposed to wise little sayings as he sees their shortcomings too easily. Try and roll out one of those little two line ditties and you get

As for the train of ideas, painful for you?!?! Try it from this side sister. Getting what the INTJ is actually on about instead of all the bluster and screening is like digging through rock!! Granite!!

I know the typical INTJ is supposed to be the straight up type but it seems that in any situation where their answer is less than 100% certain that all information on the incident is withheld and classified FMEO (for my eyes only). I've had to conclude that similar to all NTs non confidence is crippling and that the INTJ manner of handling this lack of competency is to shut off all routes to the evidence. Remarkably similar to the ENTP methodology in goal if not execution.

I know how you feel. Before I came to this website a few months ago, I was convinced all INTPs were maniacal sociopaths. But that was from personal experience.

So you too think that the nice guy next door type is not a sociopath.... interesting

Good God save me, I hope not! ... Oh phew! ...I just remembered, the ISTP profile suits him much more appropriately than the ESTP profile does. He's actually quite shy and reserved, normally. But when he decides to turn on the charm... well, it's his gift.

ESTP is a problem? Worried your ESFP side may get challenged?

I think Kate Beckinsdale is supposed to be an INTP. She looks pretty sultry to me:

We will just have to agree to differ on that one then. I doubt both the type and the descriptor but I guess the latter is a matter of taste.

The Olsen twins, Mary-Kate and Ashley are supposedly also INTPs.
They have a similar style to this.

Errm I may well be showing my age or just simply my I but, who?

 

[Xander]

Somehow, when I got that look. I just knew, somehow, I was onto something cool. Especially when they came back to see it work.

You have to wonder some days though if your really convinced that this new way is better or if you just wanted to prove it could be done, least that's my experience.

Unfortunately, now adays my ideas need other people to buy-in before I can make it work. Really inconvenient.

I have been and am in that position. It's a pain. When they do let me out of my cage though I tend to wrap them up in thought so fast they can't get the lock back on the cage fast enough I've been doing databases for engineers who are computer phobic. Now that's more fun than winding up and ENFJ with a sugar mouse!!

Maybe. I notice different things from most people. I attributed it having a global, instead of sequential learning style.

Amazing how this global learning is so often maligned and yet useful. Shame I've yet to meet anyone who trains in a global style without coming off like a new age spiritualist after a pint of vodka!!