I mean that you tend to understand things in terms of yourselves and how you feel about them, and that is projected upon others and situations. This is what allows you to connect with people and understand them well at times, but other times it can also lead you astray, especially with NTs because we just don't experience the world like you do. I read a lot of ENFP stuff and I think, "they're really just talking about themselves and what they want to see and they just don't see it."
Now, INTPs will do this differently but they'll be projecting other things, like their systems and their thoughts. Honestly I think this has to do with Ne, but everybody projects themselves onto the world somehow. I just disproportionately notice this in ENFPs for some reason.]
This sounds very accurate. I would say the things we are projecting end up being an analytical mask of sorts-based upon our personal histories and our ability to generalize, when we encounter a new situation, we try and map it back to an old situation by applying our analytical mask onto the problem, our worldview. Do you think you notice ENFP projection more as it results in answers that are so very different from your own-thus highly inaccurate if applied to you?
I notice NFJ projection of this type the most, as often the answers, when applied to enfps, can be totally bizarre, even a bit funny at times, especially with the projection of underlying motive, which can be very incorrect.
But what I also question with NFJs-what are they "seeing" that I cant see? Are they seeing a part of myself, that I cant quite see correctly? Like trying to look at the back of your head in a mirror?
Things really just have to make internal sense. We can easily follow your Ne, but when you're jumping off your "Te frameworks" or whatever the hell that means, we are probably just not happy with how you've interpreted a data point, or "skimmed over" some essential [to us, of course
] condition of that data just because it superficially fits your Ne connection. Again, we will be guilty of something similar but in terms of emotions, we'll extrapolate based on a connection between some emotional data point and an observation without taking into account the meaning of that information. That's the danger of Ne-Je thinking really, there's no introverted element to the reasonings so it's just..."missing" something.
I do agree that you are correct in that often we are just NeTe-ing our way along. But If the introverted element was Fi, would you be able to sense it?
This will trigger your BS sensor, but I'd ask you to at least consider it a bit...
The INFPs often use Fi to judge aesthetics, not morals or values. Moving further, many ENFPs decsribe "groping", "feeling", or reaching out kinesthetically to dervie the best answer to technical or analytical problems. @noigmn specifically described using this in physics, I note it in troubleshooting technical issues with instrumentation. It feels like touching the subject at hand from a very high level-30,000 ft. You close your eyes, look at the problem in your mind, and then touch it with your hand while looking away from it (all in your mind of course). You explore the problem, the complex mesh, the conditions with a very visceral approach-I feel it in my stomach. Eventully you find a lump. The lump is the crux of the problem. It is where all the parts are intertangled. That is the answer to the technial problem.
This visceral feeling is exactly like facing a values based delimma-the same visceral lump is felt, but there isnt any sadness or emo, just visceral groping, like a blind person touching an object.
This all sounds like crazy bullshit-except that it works very, very well in troubleshooting scientific instrumentation. I cant tell you why the problem is the problem, in a detailed step by step sense, but I am pretty certain it is the correct problem. I dont think it is NeTe-that seems to happen without the viseral component.
My point (I really do have one, in spite of the babble), is that I think this is on way we can use Fi. Fi isnt simply a feelings based judgement for values, but an analytical tool that can be applied to other items. I suspect it fails if applied to pure logic, Ti is far more applicable, but using Fi this way works pretty well on insanely sloppy problems.
Now assuming any of the above babble could be true, would an NeTe solution or a vsiceral NeFiTe solution look the same from your perspective?
Okay, I started thinking later on that this is more addressed to ENFPs than ITPs but then I couldn't really figure out why it was in the NT rationale. ]
Oh, I figured if the enfp wanted to learn about their intp, they'd look in the NT forum.
If the INTP is worth anything at all, he'll see your idea and how it can possibly be true and apply to the world, he will just bring your attention back to some logistics that could prove an obstacle and consider them with you. I think we enjoy your excitability and optimism and typically run with you on these things to provoke it. ]
Can you clarify logistics? I always think of logistics as very Te sorts of things involving, well, logistics,
, and I figured Ti objections might be more purely to the logic?
As long as you're open to our input [meaning, as long as you don't mind getting shot down sometimes] it's fine. If anything, the INTP tendency to explain [and explain, and explain, and explain...] rather than "tell" means we tend to illuminate, and satisfy your curiosity with our knowledge and thoughts rather than tell you "no" and leaving it at that. The INTP gets to share his thoughts to a willing participant and the ENFP learns something new. Everybody wins. ]
Excellent. I could also see how the enfp, who often has a value stake in an offerred idea, could need to realize that and detach the value stake, before entering the convo as they would need to be open to changing the idea.
Why does everyone get angsty about that thread? (A genuine question, not sarcasm-I dont understand and would like input). I recognize the ENTJs raised a legit point about enfp manipulation, ackowledged, but the thread really seems to bother people who are not INTJs or ENFPs and they constantly step in and snipe at it. I find it to be a concentrated source of INTJs (most of whom I like
) who can help me with questions about my 4yo INTJ or just play with ideas about typology in a weird sub-space of sorts. But I admit being ignorant of why the thread bugs people so much.
[MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION]
I agree with you on a lot of those points.
Neither these, nor your previous posts sound ENFP. They sound kind of INFJ with a strong T.
I am neither labeling, nor questioning your type. I am curious as to why you think this is. Or perhaps I am mistaken.
On the other hand just to make it clear (pls don't be offended. EDIT: actually, do you get offended when somebody says/warns of something you know? Am I being too stereotypical as per Kersey and feeling uneasy stating the obvious as an NT or am I reading too much type theory into normal human relations?) - you realize tests give up to 30% error, especially when taken on the job. A lot of people scoring INTP are ENTP with a rotten Fe or an overblown pride of the Father Ti. I've seen three of those, me included.
.
Interesting points regarding Te, Istbkleta. I am a bit limited on time and want to think upon them more fully before replying.
^^see I am an enfp, I left you a
, LOL.
I have been called an ESTJ, ENTP, and was even described by a coworker on Friday as being an ISTJ. When I take formal MBTI tests:
MBTI simple form-ENTP
MBTI Step II-INTP
MBTI paper form-INFP
MMTI-c-(for children) ENFP
I use a lot of Ne, it appears.
I am a ennea type 4w5 but I am an sp/sx instinctual variant. This means I do feel very strongly at times, but almost always contain it behind a wall of (sloppy
) logic if possible. My emotions are my weak spot. My mother was an extremely emotionally manipulative enfp, thus I learned to value logical analysis over simple emotions whenever possible to prevent being hurt and protect myself from her games-an Fi valuation of Te.
The 4w5 gives an intense desire to dig through my own crap though and I cant tolerate dishonesty in myself. I have to understand the truth above all else-thus this need comes out when I interact with NTP friends, in that while I may want to make snap defensive Fi value judgements, I recognize they are incomplete and flawed, not truth, thus seek more data to appreciate the very alien perspective of their worldview-then respect it as having a right to exist.
(You do seem very INTP to me.)
The one thing I dont get about Te categorization is "assumptions". My son is big on this...I worked this morning on explaining coincidence to him. He is dead set on always categorizing things and frequently uses his first guess when doing that instead of digging deeper. Even when I correct him he still believes what he wants and tries to make "BOTH" true, I can usually bend and take extremes into account and accomodate this, but I explain that. At the extreme with me...he jumps to a conclusion, I explain, he jumps to another conclusion and I explain, and it just keeps going...not always about the same thing, but his mind slowly drifts. Sometimes it gets to much other times its easy to work with. Usually when he begins to rely on me to heavily to do his processing and I am doing other things is to much. At those times I push him to process things on his own, but because I am busy at those times I cant sit there and walk him through it. I think he flops between ENFP/ISTJ. these days I dont really see a "specfic" type
Poki-this sounds a bit Ni to me at first glance? The ability to beleive two things at once, in spite of data? My little intj is convinced all red cars are the fastest, because ummlau's red car if faster than my black car. it is VERY odd to see how he analyzes with Te, but really fascinating.
What do you mean by do his processing for him?
Personally enjoyable, like you said...the correct language....but you hjave to remember soothing...the fakeness has nothing to do with the tone. Not saying ENFPs are always fake, but IxTPs prefer real emotions..
@jock the motie and [MENTION=7595]INTP[/MENTION]-I think this is the emo manipulation part I was talking about.
Poki can you eleborate on "The fakeness has nothing to do with the tone"?
I can very rarely display emotion unless I really feel it-thus to try and be soothing, even if I didnt feel soothing, would be fake and avoided at all costs. However very often, with my ISTP ex-when I need to request his help is when I am the most annoyed, frustrated or upset by what I view (tert Te fail
) as him perhaps not being accountable. Learning i needed to speak in a soothing tone at this point was amazingly valuable, as the sharp Te "harpy" voice seems very jarring to him. Bending my own mind around why it was okay to speak soothingly, when i felt anything but soothing, was essential though. Still a work in progress.
We do have value because its our belief system, but imposing that value onto you we dont do...if stressed you may pick up that it bothers us and that bothers you. But that is not us imposing it, but you feeling judged. With ISTPs this is more about actions, not ideas...INTPS may be different.
I think this captures the biggest IXTP diff. I almost never argued or fought with my ISTP ex, even over the course of ten years. We did not share ideas, though-he thought I was very smart, but thought about "crazy stuff". I was extremely careful to give his free range on actions and his passion for adventure. Often I was home alone, but this wasnt a big deal.
With an INTP, I think I''d have to learn to tone down the knee-jerk Te on the ide front, as we are both playing in the same space-abstract idea land.
INTPs, I noted my ISTP worked to keep his actions very seperate from me-like he needed a partition. Do you note this about your ideas?
:''
