[NT] INTJ manipulation vs ENTP manipulation

[ceecee]

Hehe, yeah. And the INTJs I know are terrible at lying - or maybe I just know them too well.

I'm terrible at lying.

 

[Salomé]

No competition. INTJs can't manipulate their way out of a cardboard box.

 

[CashmanGreen]

I think you have a very good point here but I disagree with your conclusion.

It's indeed the case that as a Ne dominant, life is anything but orderly. While a Te dom would maybe show integrity by rigorously sticking to his opinion, to an Ne the World is always open to reevaluation and decisions are based on data that flows in. I often dont recognize at work how I change my opinion and that I have with only 2 days in between suddenly the opposite opinion towards an issue. I dont do this on purpose and I need other people to remind me, I am often angry at myself when I notice this happening but it does happen and I have to live with it. On the feelings part I disagree. I as an entp have an exceptionally well rich inner feeling World, I am just often oblivious to it. Living together with a dominant Feeler helps you getting deeper in touch with your emotions and learning things about morale and ethics, which you value and she of course places a great importance on. In that regards entps to me are strong empaths, who not only can feel with others but see the dynamic of a situation as well. That gives us the distinct advantage for manipulation.

Now the conclusion: it's true that the importance on morale, ethic and such things aint natural to entps. To me they aint a center of my attention. That means to others I appear flighty, even haphazard and I dont even recognize that. This is a weakness and doubly so its an invisible weakness. Due to that people have turned their backs on me and I didnt even understand why.

Now the thing is what you do from here. I personally since the day I was born have rules over which I define myself and which make me feel good. They mostly came naturally to me. The first one is that when I fall in love, it's always with the heart. I did that only 2 times so far in my life and that makes my "girls I had sex with" counter pretty low. But since I am placing importance on the heart thing, having sex isnt the main subject for me. So from that ultimatively a sense of loyality developed. This sense has gotten so far that I am at the point right now at which I fighgt for it and defend it. If all goes well I'll be living with my wife until the end of our lifes and I am hoping for that to happen, cause I think of it as being very romantic and great. It feels great and I feel like I am doing a great thing.

The same it is with work and friends. I have the demand to accomplish a lot of things and that automatically has made me a hard worker. Atm I am working on 3 projects, the magnet generator, my steel mill and a led cube plus I am going to work and university. I am pretty close to a workaholic but I dont want anything less no more. What made this possible basically was living together with my girlfriend, who is an activator for me. When I lived alone, I rot in laziness and did nothing but playing games all day or posting on typology forums.

So what to gain from that, I am loyal, I am integer, I like to be seen as a hard worker and I have a high demand towards myself of being a good friend. I think to be like that you somehow have to like the victim role a bit. That of course makes me a joke to most of the predators out there, but if I dont loose my teeth being like that, I can still defend myself. The thing is, I dont care what others think, but I treat them like I want to be treaten and that makes it possible for me to wake up in the mornings, look into the mirror and actually like what I see. I am convinced, having a history of depression running thru my family that if I wouldnt put so great importance on being a narcisstic self-loving light house in the dark, I'ld end up depressed as well .

Sounds like you are a more balanced entp than i, and i assume at least a tad older (perhaps just healthier). I have certain ethic that i derived from logically considering what behavior is best for my survival and reproduction. That being said, i do not have a conscience, i dont believe in protecting those that are weak (unless i for some reason this weakling won my heart but that in itself is power but i digress). To me morals are things to live by so you dont fuck yourself over not so one can entertain a clear conscience. I also have weak "f" and instead of getting better at it i adapt with my Ti by learning social systems and hierarchies from reading. I know that if i act a certain way i can "manipulate" into liking me and even into submitting to my will. I just dont think there is anything wrong with excercising my strengths and if someone doesnt like it well... everybody has an oppinion.

I am very much dominated by the entp hidden agenda.

 

[FireShield98]

Hmm, I'm actually VERY good at lying, but I really only lie about my personal life (mainly just my thoughts and feelings). I don't lie to manipulate people though.

Actually, this is more accurate (since it's not that I lie, I just don't tell everything):

INTJs don't lie. We just dispense the truth in a controlled manner.

 

[Usehername]

I can only lie to protect my own or a loved one's personal business.

Otherwise I just don't care enough to lie. I don't need everyone on my team, and therefore I don't mind saying slightly uncomfortable truths about myself or others. I have great faith in my ability to respectfully conquer my corner of the world, and I similarly see a lot of strengths in the people around me.

If I'm lying for you or myself in public it probably means I think you or I are vulnerable in a way that isn't relevant to the situation and therefore no one's business.

I don't manipulate. I just sometimes do not-so-diplomatic things.

Example: ENTJ friend is the official leader of a group, but isn't doing anything. The department head keeps emailing me and someone else because she knows we'll take care of the actionable items. She just asked who the official leader was because the ENTJ is so absent she couldn't remember, and I outed my friend while affirming that next year, one of us will do a better job.

I told the ENTJ months ago it was kind of a douche move to have the official title on her resume while doing nothing, and I was not interested in doing the work with my head down. I'll do the work with my head up.

She didn't change anything, so I just outed her (when asked--I didn't intend to set out and inflict damage). That doesn't mean I don't like her, or even that I'm mad, but rather that I'll be sure to look out for myself and my team before I look out for slackers. Probably, an NF would've handled it more diplomatically. I basically said the truth without feeling motivated to cover for her in any way.

 

[Trunks]

It depends. There is a form of manipulation in which everyone involved knows about the manipulator and there is a form of manipulation in which noone involved knows the manipulator

Yeah, it's true. It depends, sometimes when I know about something, I just ignore it or pretend to not knowing about it. Anyway, most of the time I stay away from conflict situations. I dislike it...But, I admires ENTPs, I think they are attractive people in terms of socializing.

 

[Coriolis]

She didn't change anything, so I just outed her (when asked--I didn't intend to set out and inflict damage). That doesn't mean I don't like her, or even that I'm mad, but rather that I'll be sure to look out for myself and my team before I look out for slackers. Probably, an NF would've handled it more diplomatically. I basically said the truth without feeling motivated to cover for her in any way.

The trick lies in getting the appropriate person to ask. This is something I am very good at.

 

[yenom]

No competition. INTJs can't manipulate their way out of a cardboard box.

I don't know, Light Yagami was pretty manipulative in death note.

I'll be honest, I think INTJs are underrated in this thread, and ENTPs aren't as good as they think they are.

INTJs always give me the impression of a Black Box.

 

[Trunks]

I solves 3 problems in less than 5 hours, in my previous working place, everyday I get tested by few of them and there was many and lots of other types. (collectivism). I get tested almost everyday, I still can see the problem from above and solves their tests very well. I didn't like it, I can take a vengeance, but I didn't. I just know my limits...I can see an ENTPs has a lots of votes at this thread. Anyway, can ENTPs solves problem as quick as an INTJs?

 

[Uytuun]

can ENTPs solves problem as quick as an INTJs?

Maybe the real question here is "Can they create them faster?"

 

[Valis]

As an INTJ I think I'm quite effective at playing a 'long game'. I openly admit to colleagues that people will get the better of me in the short term as I don't have the wit they have. However, I set myself medium and long term goals and doggedly work towards achieving them. I tend to do this covertly in the background, on a one-to-one level, usually winning over individuals with the power of my arguments and vision. I have effectively influenced a number of policies at work without anyone identifying them with me (this is good as some of them are quite unpopular such as including performance measures in appraisals, re-writing job descriptions for a layer of management for example). It is quite amusing as staff subsequently come to me to complain about measures they think others have introduced. However, I try to be very positive and manipulate people for the good of the organisation. I generally like to motivate others and win them over but have sometimes resorted to machiavellian tactics to undermine, discredit or worse seek to constructively dismiss people. However, if you were to ask anyone I work with, they'd say I was a nice guy

I should also say, that I almost never need to lie as I'm not very good at it. I just with-hold information.

 

[Moonstone3]

INTJs are more covert ops, we infiltrate the system and are prepared when and if the time comes to destroy it from the top down However, that doesn't mean we do this all the time. It's like an 'in case' scenario for me.

 

[Moonstone3]

As an INTJ I think I'm quite effective at playing a 'long game'. I openly admit to colleagues that people will get the better of me in the short term as I don't have the wit they have. However, I set myself medium and long term goals and doggedly work towards achieving them. I tend to do this covertly in the background, on a one-to-one level, usually winning over individuals with the power of my arguments and vision. I have effectively influenced a number of policies at work without anyone identifying them with me (this is good as some of them are quite unpopular such as including performance measures in appraisals, re-writing job descriptions for a layer of management for example). It is quite amusing as staff subsequently come to me to complain about measures they think others have introduced. However, I try to be very positive and manipulate people for the good of the organisation. I generally like to motivate others and win them over but have sometimes resorted to machiavellian tactics to undermine, discredit or worse seek to constructively dismiss people. However, if you were to ask anyone I work with, they'd say I was a nice guy
.

I've been there. I price all the jewelry for the store I work at and customers will say some crazy stuff like. 'These prices are too high!.' Inside, I am insulted, but a retort of competitors prices usually shuts them up. Also, I've squealed on a few employees and their badmouthing the management. They were soon fired, as my boss has an incredibly high ego that doesn't tolerate taking any blame.
I would say INTJs can read and assess the people involved in a situation, play out the possible causes and effects and decide which path to take.
As far as the long term winner, yes I am the tortoise. I can outlast the bullshit. As far as quick wit, it depends on how upset I am. I feel I am slow to respond at times because I can't fathom that someone would be such and idiot/ass. It blows my mind.

 

[Trunks]

Maybe the real question here is "Can they create them faster?"

You mean create the problem?
In that case, they are better.
Since I can see the problem from above, I don't think I need to feed the trolls (just kidding) I know what they want.

 

[Trunks]

INTJs don't lie. We just dispense the truth in a controlled manner.[/QUOTES

I don't lie, I just being blunt and honest. I don't know about the controlled manner, I just doing it naturally.

 

[Winds of Thor]

Actually, this might be true. I think ENTPs are just really good at convincing people to do shit. Not sure about INTJs.

ENTPs are engineers of human relationships. It's common knowledge for those who study MBTI to any certainty.

Look, not every ENTP is trying to manipulate everyone. Persuasion isn't manipulation.

Having said that, everyone has desired outcomes they would like to see..and to some degree, people try to manipulate.

 

[Winds of Thor]

What is the difference? How does it feel like to be manipulated by an INTJ?
How is different from ENTP manipulation?

The Poll is insidious. Better? As if it's a good thing!?

 

[Winds of Thor]

I think the whole manipulation discussion is bullshit. I never conciously manipulated anyone in all my life. I have a personality and this influences people all around me in my daily life that's why its called social life. I am a motivator and people get inspired by my ideas and thats not because I sell em charming, its because I thought them thru beforehand and made sure they make sense.

Man forges his own destiny and people who think other people manipulate people have in my opinion issues with their own personal integrity and personality. I am carried away easily by good ideas of other people but if they are able to manipulate me or trick me into something is my own personal choice in the end. And if I am not aware of the moment in which that happens, I have a problem and its not only the other people who are evil.

Yea..Exactly. If you're going to be manipulated, it's your half of the involvement you decided to engage and go along with.

Do football players accuse the opposing defense when their players block the passer? Haha no..if you don't like it don't play football.

 

[yenom]

I might have to take back what I said.

The greatest strength of INTJ is their secrecy and their above average intelligence.
But their biggest weakness is their J is too obvious , or their Te is too strong.
You can't manipulate people with a strong Te, and INTJs suck at hiding their Te.

If you want to manipulate people, you have to make them believe they have freedom of choice or action, rahter than being a chess piece.
But if the J (or Te) is too strong, then it becomes too obvious.
when you start ordering people around and go into they XNTJ mode, the manipulation will become obvious.
Ps are better than Js at manipulating, because they can shrug off if things don't go according to plan. but Js (esp strong Js) get anal retentive when things aren't going as planned.
All you have to do is tell an INTJ "I don't feel like it" and it will throw them off the tanget.
Maybe INTJs can only manipulate another strong J, like ENTJ.

P manipulation is more subtle, you don't know what they are up to. When you are manipulated by a J, you will eventually get the feeling they are forcing their agenda on you.

I(introversion) are better manipulators than Es.
But P (perciever) are better manipulators than Js, because P manipulation is way more subtle. They let you believe you are free, while secretly pulling the strings.

I'll quote Gothe

" None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. "

and INTJs suck at doing this.

I mean I have to compliment your type for being great at mind chess games and all, but your inability to let things go with the flow will be your downfall.

I admit, you might be way more intelligent than us ( i don't make the classical mistake like other entps thinking we are the smartest and the greatest), but your Te is your achilles heel.
(a piece of advise for you, if you want to play manipulation games with us Ps , you better hide your Te well)

I guess we'll have to see in real life what you are capable of, and I will always find out what i want to know.

 

[Coriolis]

I mean I have to compliment your type for being great at mind chess games and all, but your inability to let things go with the flow will be your downfall.

I don't often resort to deliberate manipulation, but can tell you the account here errs in assuming that the INTJ envisions only one possible way the manipulation might play out. INTJs are great contingency planners, so when I do try something like this, I plan for a variety of responses from my "subject". "I don't feel like it" is an obvious one. It is a bit like chess: I can anticipate possible moves the other person might make, and plan for each one. Of course I can sometimes be surprised if they come up with something I didn't anticipate, but this doesn't happen that often. Actually, acting like I don't care is a great default response to the truly unexpected.