[INFP] INFP's, inadequate compared to ENFP's?

[Thalassa]

I'd say he's ENFP....but he's a performer, so....




But this is true. Something to consider - from my observations anyway, more people initially type INFP & change to something else than vice versa. And there are stats out there which very much suggest depressed people type INFP, for whatever reason.

I still test as INFP to this day. I type INFP on Internet four dichotomy tests more often than not, but I think it's because they're all a very similar format. My official paid Myers Briggs is INFP.

I don't think I type as INFP out of depression, far from it. I'm actually more likely to type with a higher S percentage now, or as ISFP or even ISTP sometimes because of my realization that I am not terribly abstract, I changed a lot of my perceptions of what "abstract" even meant, I initially thought like most people on the Internet, that all Sensors were simpletons who didn't ever read a lot or do "intellectual" things, but that was a long time ago.

It's funny to me, because when depressed, I type INTP (and probably seem a bit like a disgruntled STJ). When I'm feeling good, liking who I am, being what I see as me (which is my ego, right?), then I'm more likely to test INFP & appear as one.

I think I'm more likely to get T-ish scores when I'm depressed too because then I feel very cranky about people, and so I'm more likely to get "hates people" scores which are falsely correlated to T traits. Like "I am blunt and direct" because Fs are always supposed to be sunshine and light and endless good manners?

The internet gives very narrow & often contradicting ideas of how types appear. There is a LITTLE truth in their caricatures though.

The main difference between those two is fame & looks - outward ways to measure value. The difference between Johnny Depp & an INFP e4 male is just that. Both are equally creepy, but it looks mysteriously sexy & creative when packaged by cheekbones & smoldering eyes & a lot of critical acclaim & success as an actor. (The nice, gentle, eager guy who is a people-pleasing doormat is an ISFJ stereotype often misapplied to INFP...don't get me started on people confusing Si & Fi).

Some of the comments here are basically saying INFP strengths are often not measured in Te ways (fitting some quantifiable measurement) or Se ways (tangible). The strengths have to manifest in those ways or they're overlooked & devalued, even if they are contributing significantly. The most obvious thing is "does it make money?", which is why a lot of INFPs hate money so much. You get a stubbornness to not translate a strength into money making because there are often compromises in integrity. I've seen ISFPs get stuck there also though.

I've just never valued structure or corporate America very much, but I like money very much. I wouldn't compromise certain things for money though; ultimately my free time, ability to enjoy my life, and relationships with others and ability to do what I want have always been the priority, and money is incidental in making that happen, and I've had the fortune to find tangible but sometimes risky or altertnative ways of making it.

 

[OrangeAppled]

You know a particularly annoying trait I've noticed in ENFPs (twice in the last two days)?

Complaining that their social skills are/were awful, how awkward they are/were, how they were outcasts, etc.

It's like listening to every supermodel complain about how they were such awkward and gangly teens.

Yeah, they can't even let us win at losing
Gotta steal the show

 

[Scott N Denver]

I started this thread because I was reflecting or brainstorming on some differences I've seen between INFP's and ENFP's, specifically how they are often treated socially in my experience. I have discussed this and realted matters with others before on this forum, so I was pretty sure that if I got the ball rolling others would chime and we could brainstorm together and compare notes.

I dont believe that INFP's are inferior to ENFP's, or vice versa. I have seen many times where strong E's treat ENFP's very differently from INFP's

You know a particularly annoying trait I've noticed in ENFPs (twice in the last two days)?

Complaining that their social skills are/were awful, how awkward they are/were, how they were outcasts, etc.

It's like listening to every supermodel complain about how they were such awkward and gangly teens.

I dont specifically know the ENFP's being discussed, and I've never met in-person the ENFP's contributing to this thread. So I can not speak for them personally, and I didnt know many ENFP's when I was growing up, but the limited experiences I do have, if the ENFP's talked about feeling awkward or socially odd I pointed out "well, people sure to respond well to you and whatever it is that your doing!" Perhaps I'm thinking more as a male INFP and about female ENFP's, but I personally have plenty of life experiences where being a "typical male INFP" was NOT well received by others, especially older TJ males. Then an ENFP would go talk to the same people and get a very different outcome or reaction than I did. No one ever said that being a male INFP is an easy or particularly-geenrally-socially-acceptable or generally-well-received thing.


Much of what OA and SK have talked about rings true in my experience as well.

I've blabbed plenty elsewhere about what I like about ENFP's and that I think INFP's and ENFP's often do well together, balance each other, and draw out or at least allow the others strengths to come to the table and flourish.
[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] , I'm no enneagram specialist, and by and large I dont liek enneagram, and I have wondered if I'm more 4 or 9. I might socially play the role of a 9 when engaging others [4 apparently wasnt viewed in a positive or supportive light earlier in my life], but overall I definitely feel more 4 overall. 4w5 specifically.

 

[Southern Kross]

I believe that's through the use of analogies and metaphors that help relate something unfamiliar from domain X into a familiar domain Y

Indeed. That's how it works for me. People have praised me for it in the past. I do think it's a weird thing to praise, though - it feels like something so simple that anyone could do.

Fair enough. FWIW, I envy INFP's sense of creativity in a vacuum.. i.e. the imagination. And the better facility of writing (language). The writing bit might be a stereotype to some extent, but I'd like nothing more than to make a living at home and be a novelist.

Yeah, I know how that feels - having a creative inclination but lacking the level of ability to achieve that.

Too much to count. I was going to post most here, but Jung already opens up his section on introverted Thinking by relating it to introverts in general.

Like every introverted type, he is almost completely lacking in that which distinguishes his counter type, namely, the intensive relatedness to the object. In the case of a human object, the man has a distinct feeling that he matters only in a negative way, i.e., in milder instances he is merely conscious of being superfluous, but with a more extreme type he feels himself warded off as something definitely disturbing. This negative relation to the object-indifference, and even aversion-characterizes every introvert; it also makes a description of the introverted type in general extremely difficult.

Thanks. Jung often amazes me with his sheer level of insight and empathic understanding.

Yes, I think the first question is what I caught a whiff of. Leave it to Ne to get only the broad implication and nothing else! But I guess I'm trying to add two positives, which is that, one, skill at navigating the social world is not directly related to happiness or personal success, and two, extraversion alone isn't a guarantor of social skill - both of which mean INFPs have ample opportunity to be happy and successful without being extraverted and to become socially skillful without being extraverted. I think I'm also trying to press the point that I don't think many people consciously choose communication skill over content quality, which has positive implications for introverts, too. The nature of the external world, at least where I live, tends to be a bit harried, so efficiency over substance is chosen out of necessity rather than preference. I think the world would benefit from an introverted push into the social realm, a slowing down and a deepening.

In answer to the earlier question, I think an IxxP could begin to navigate the extraverted world by working on communicating information about their value and their communication style to others. The problem outsiders experience with IxxPs is that there are not always many immediate external indicators of internal depth and quality, nor many indicators that there is a desire to share.

I do agree Extroversion is not a guarantor of comprehensive social ease. I realise Extroverts can be shy and have anxieties about speaking in front of people, for example. It sometimes seems to be that being like that can make Extroverts even more uncomfortable because they feel the failing more keenly. Even though they may know nothing of MBTI, it's like they're unconsciously aware that as a Extrovert they 'should' be able to cope with all social situations. Introverts mostly just feel embarrassed and simply wish they were better; we set the bar much lower when it comes to our expectations of our own social skills.

Like what I said to William K, I do think there is a problem that Introverted means of effective communication are often not accepted, even if they can achieve the same ends. In that sense we're forced into modes of expression that are totally unnatural to us. I realise Extroverts have the same experiences but at worst, it's extreme frustrating and creatively restricting for them - for Introverts it can be absolutely mortifying. In high school I disliked English class even though ordinarily I would have loved it. It seem to focus so much on, what I saw as, public humiliation. All that group work, speeches, and sharing creative writing in front of the entire class. I often pretended I didn't do my homework, and was willing to cop the heat for that, rather than read my story out loud. Now those sort of things are something I could cope with a little better but that took years of forcibly exposing myself to similarly excruciating experiences to get to this point. And even now, when I'm doing my best to try to shut up and get on with it, I have to endure constant criticisms about my wariness, about everything I'm doing wrong, and how, "I'm not trying enough". Fuck.

I don't think INFP's need be defined as "hopeless" at this. To me, it's like learning anything - you need to desire to achieve a level of mastery, learn what's involved in attaining these skills then practice, practice, practice. Why can't an effective communicator or salesperson or public speaker be an INFP? If that's the case, I'd better change my type right now!

Of course, but it is unnatural to us. And yes, there are some skills that we all have to learn but sometimes you, and other people, have to simply accept what you're not good at. I know I suck at public speaking. Sure, I expect that at times I will have to do this and I will get on with it and do it as best I can - but I know I'm never going to be good at that and I'm never, ever going to enjoy doing it. There are other INFPs who are less shy, and are more capable in this area, than me, whom may learn to master this skill if they put their minds to it. I don't deny that's entirely likely, and that's great for them.

I don't want to sound like a defeatist, but I do think there can be a danger in the whole, "if you just put your mind to it, you can do it" mentality. I need to recognise my limitations or else I will spend my life beating myself up, trying to match an impossible standard.

My mum for example, is a terrible at sport. She has zero hand-eye co-ordination skills. When she married into my Dad's family, she was surrounded by people who have this skill in droves. My uncles went on at her about it; telling her to try harder at it; trying to teach her things and it was really tough for her. Because it was so easy for them, they assumed it must be due to a lack of practice, or a poor attitude, or an unwillingness to listen and learn - and you can imagine how humiliating, insulting and upsetting this would feel for my Mum. But the simple fact is, she's not good at sport and no matter how much practice she has she will never be able to master it. She's willing to accept that, but others weren't. It doesn't mean she wants absolutely nothing to do with it; it just means she's never going to be extremely involved in it.

And IME people are even less forgiving when you are lacking in social skills and wish to avoid the related things you're not good at.

 

[Southern Kross]

OK, so I finally got around to this...

Jung talks about Fi-dom putting something of a spell on those around them. This is the SUFFOCATING presence I spoke of earlier. I never understood why I don't have to say or do anything & people feel PRESSURE from my mere presence to be "better", and they resent this. They'll say they feel like they need to seem smarter, or be "good" (like goody-good), or be very careful around me. INFPs may inadvertently make people walk on eggshells by doing nothing at all. When you're acting with integrity to your feelings, it's guilt-inducing to others & when you're a blank page, they'll project onto you also. Just as we project our self-criticisms onto others, they project their paranoias onto us too, which is easy to do when we're quiet & appear to have high standards in moral/ethical/aesthetic areas.

People tell you this? I get the impression that people sometimes think that but they don't say it to me. I wonder sometimes - it seems like Americans generally seem to be more analytical about their feelings towards others and are more expressive and up front with how they feel about them. NZers wouldn't typically bring up that sort of thing and probably wouldn't even reflect much on it either (I think about it a lot, but I don't imagine others do).

Sorry, I'm getting off track here. It's just that some of the things you mention that people say about you (and things others on the forum mention too, but seeing as you're a INFP 4w5...) are not things I'm familiar with at all. I see it on online personality tests too sometimes: those questions like, "do people often say they value your opinions and advice?". And I'm like , when the hell does anyone say that to anyone? People in NZ wouldn't say that to each other even if it was true - it would weird us out. Someone told me the other day that I was very insightful and I just about fell off my chair. The thing is, I actually think the person that told me is a INFP, which explains things.

Anyway, I digress...

The vulnerability & energy of emoting is very hard for me, but it has greatly increased the positive responses to me socially & personally. I still have a long way to go.... didn't check your instincts Scott, but I suspect you're so-dom instinct in egram. I see why you & Southern Kross have more of frustration here.

Yes, that was in my mind too, but didn't think I should mention it.

It's true... I got called "weird" a lot also growing up, but with ENFPs, it's energetic weird, like OUT THERE. With INFPs, it's intense weird, which registers as creepy to people. I was the girl people were like, "that girl is so weird" and sometimes people would say I was a lesbian because to kids weird=gay. Being so last, I had a way of dealing with it that reminds me of Andy Warhol's way of dealing with critics - I'd agree with a lot of it. "You're so weird!" - "Yes I am". "You're such a loser!" - "Yes, that's true." I didn't make apologies. I'm not saying to be defensive like this (because it's a defensive reaction), but sometimes just OWN your undesirability & devalue the judgement. YOU decide what's valuable. Since extroverts tend to adapt their gauge of value to the external, they may just be swayed.

I've always dressed kind of offbeat, inappropriately at times, and people like it because I'm unapologetic. I get like 99% positive feedback. I think the biggest issue can be not liking yourself & apologizing through your demeanor for existing. Then people are swayed by this in their judgment of you.

I'm pretty sure everyone thought I was a lesbian in High School too. I imagine they still do.

I wish I could own it like that; I always admire people that do. I try to do it but it comes out all wrong; I over-justify myself and inadvertently dismiss those that think differently. I probably just end up alienating people more because I sound like a pretentious bitch.

Basically I need to learn when to shut my mouth

I think it's Van Der Hoop who says Ji-dom are contrasted with an inner security but outward appearance of insecurity. Jung basically describes this as a chip in the shoulder. This creates the pendulum swinging between appearing dismissive of others or apologetic for existing. You can appear confident AND receptive to others without copping an ENFP demeanor.

Interesting - and accurate. This must seem weird and confusing to others.

This explains some things. People either treat me like I'm far more capable than I am, or as if I'm so pathetically feeble and lacking in perception that I need my hand held to be able to achieve anything.

The main difference between those two is fame & looks - outward ways to measure value. The difference between Johnny Depp & an INFP e4 male is just that. Both are equally creepy, but it looks mysteriously sexy & creative when packaged by cheekbones & smoldering eyes & a lot of critical acclaim & success as an actor. (The nice, gentle, eager guy who is a people-pleasing doormat is an ISFJ stereotype often misapplied to INFP...don't get me started on people confusing Si & Fi).

I love that you mention this. It has perplexed me at how popular and loved INFPs can be. It helps to be attractive and artistic because people overlook the weirdness and suddenly see the same qualities as mysteriousness.

The feeling that I'd need to be extraordinary to have significance has been discouraging. This is some e4 stuff also though... I resent people who get to be ordinary and still seen as significant & having something of worth to contribute.

Exactly. That bugs the hell out of me too. It's not that I think such people are overvalued; I'm happy for their success. I just don't get why I get shafted either way: I'm overlooked both when I'm mediocre/'normal' and when I actually have something significant to offer.

I think a question here is, what are the unique strengths of the ordinary INFP, not the extraordinary ones. We know extraordinary INFPs are cream of the crop (William Shakespeare, Kurt Cobain, Audrey Hepburn, Van Gogh, etc), but most of us are just regular people.

There are plenty but you're not going to see them listed in a job description any time soon - even if having those skills would make you significantly better at that job.

Jung also said that while Fi is harder to express than Ti (oooh yeah, we're the most subjective), it's possible because of the great inner similarities of humans, much like their great outer similarities (ie. the physical body). I think recognizing that what we feel is HUMAN, a part of a human experience that goes beyond ourselves as individuals, allows us to see our own value clearer & then we're more confident to express the feeling. Because we understand & identify meaning in these human experiences like no other type. When we highlight this meaning, it clarifies for others what is truly important to their human experience also. So Jung says in order to do this, we have to hit others' feelings in a way that they experience the feeling we feel. Obviously, emotion is a tool for this. But direct expression is hard for Fi-dom, which is why we channel it into creative things which affect others. Ne for us is useful to explore avenues of expression, ways we bring the meaning to light so that others can see it & we get to experience it outside of our heads. It's not about a Ne demeanor... it's the thinking applied to finding outlets for Fi, IMO. Profiles mention INFPs being "quiet forces". We're not telling so much as showing, and when we do tell, we have to show a bit of emotion to strike others with the significance in a way that's not self-righteous or apologetic. Fe types know how emotion is a communication tool, it adds clarity, not noise. Fe types know their emotion adds WEIGHT to their argument; it doesn't detract. I think I've learned more from them than ENFPs.

Then we have to seek out contexts to communicate in our preferred style or do what we really don't want to do - prepare & practice ahead of time. ENFPs have trouble with the latter but find it easier to improvise as you note. I'm pretty good at BS improvising if the environment is small & I'm not feeling shy. I don't think I've always been that way.

I'd work on identifying what is your real personality & what is social anxiety. I'm still quite shy, but it has lessened with age & so stuff like improvising in communication is easier. The confidence problems we have can stem from past experiences of being told we're weird, we're losers, we make no sense, we have no feelings (when we feel a LOT) - general invalidation. And we internalize it a lot deeper than ENFPs, IMO, because they use Ne to reframe in the delightfully delusional way N-doms do. It could do us good to "re-frame" more.

Being forced to do it several times does help, but it doesn't actually change my lack of skill. It only improves my ability to cope with doing it.

When I did speeches at school I used to just read the whole thing off the cards (even though you weren't meant to) in a borderline monotone so that I could get it over and done with. I can't say that I was reliving internalised negativity in those moments; I just never wanted to feel exposed in front of others and never wanted to to have attention drawn to me (although a lot of negative experiences did influence that, in part). While I growing up, if I was really bad at and/or really hated doing something, I invested almost no effort in it. It was easier to sabotage it, than be seen trying and failing. Also, it was a bit like giving the finger to the teacher/the curriculum for making me do it (those bastards!).

In the last year I had to do speeches (age 17) I actually made an effort - I tried to be expressive and make eye-contact etc. I was still terrible. My legs shook, I stuttered and tripped over my words, I forgot half of what I had to say, and had very little charm but people weren't bored silly. I only tried because I didn't want to be such a sook about it (ie. the inner ESTJ made me do it). It took a long time to get to that stage where I even had the strength to try. From around 17 onwards I have tried more to, as you say, reframe such situations but, it's still tough for me. Practice doesn't really make me much better these things - it just makes me a little braver.

I know what you mean though. I do GREAT with one-on-one teaching, but couldn't see myself translating that energy to a classroom. When I was sub-teaching, I had more of a calming influence on kids & improvised well as far as adapting, but I was not engaging in the way I can be in a one-on-one setting.

People have often told me before that I should be a teacher but I couldn't imagine standing up in front of, and attempting to affect, even a class of small children. I'm sure I could handle it but I don't want to pursue something I know would cause me too much discomfort. Besides it would be hard as you say to communicate so broadly - I would want to appeal to the learning style and ability of each person.

can i play devil's advocate here: why do you care? why do you (INFP's) want to express those things you have internally to the world outside you? why do you care about external confirmation of your value? why isn't knowing your valuable good enough?

i'm asking you these questions because i'm really playing devil's advocate here: it's months that i try to convince my INFP gf that she has something to give to the world and that she should do something with her talent, while she seems to be half lazy and replies with "why should i care? i just want to have a simple life with the people i love around me".

PS: I'm loving the discussion here, especially the last segment between skylights and southernkross, you guys make me feel understood...

I care because I think I have something valuable to offer. I feel like my views are useful, meaningful and insightful and that they could make things better, or at least clearer, for others. What's the use of having the answers if no one wants to hear them? Ne demands an outlet for one's ideas. And sometimes I'm bursting at the seams with ideas but don't have the receptive ears to voice them to, or perhaps even, the voice to convey them at all.

Your girlfriend might be a 9. 4s have more of a need to express something. Or maybe she's just more enlightened/resigned than I am about these things.

 

[Scott N Denver]

I dont know how true this is across the board, but one theme or potential theme that I am seeing here is: ENFP's wanting to be seen or taken more seriously or viewed as more intellectual than they are often seen as, and INFP's wanting to be seen or taken less seriously or viewed as less intellectual than we often are seen as . Maybe this is me being a E4w5 thing? Maybe its me having spent so much time around INT's?

Anyone want to jump on this idea or run with it?

 

[sleuthiness]

Hello again, Scott Denver. I'll be busy going comatose while blah blah blahl kajlksblahala.

 

[entropie]

From a more personal view you may want to decide whats happens if you constantly poke both with sticks. The enfp will prolly go nuts quite fast and jump your back, put her teeth into your neck and then have dirty sex with you. The infp would prolly do nothing for a long long long long long time. But then at the tip-toe of the cascade they'll blow up like a hydrogen bomb and devastate 1/4th of the World leaving only scorched Earth behind.

In the light of that, the decision is easy: of course you'ld go with the infp cause that's way more challenge

 

[Southern Kross]

From a more personal view you may want to decide whats happens if you constantly poke both with sticks. The enfp will prolly go nuts quite fast and jump your back, put her teeth into your neck and then have dirty sex with you. The infp would prolly do nothing for a long long long long long time. But then at the tip-toe of the cascade they'll blow up like a hydrogen bomb and devastate 1/4th of the World leaving only scorched Earth behind.

In the light of that, the decision is easy: of course you'ld go with the infp cause that's way more challenge

Trust the ENTP to make it about pushing people's buttons

 

[skylights]

You know a particularly annoying trait I've noticed among ENFPs (twice in the last two days)?

Complaining that their social skills are/were awful, how awkward they are/were, how they were outcasts, etc.

It's like listening to every supermodel complain about how they were such awkward and gangly teens.

See, I get what you're saying, and it's kind of almost a compliment, but it's also frustrating because it's using an objective measurement to quantify subjective experience. I can't and won't try to compare my experience to INFP internal experience because it's ridiculous to try to compare subjective states on an objective measure. That's the problem with this entire thread. INFPs can't be inadequate to ENFPs because it's apples to oranges, and it's ridiculous to try to compare the experience of one to the experience of another based on observations from the outside.

Just because someone seems to be receiving positive responses externally, it doesn't mean they feel any less pain internally. For me it was a long, hard, learned path to social fluidity. I went through a lot of embarrassment, a lot of faux pas, a lot of teasing, some messed up behavior, terrible self-esteem, and a lot of rejection before I got to the place I am now - and most of what I know I learned by mimicking my ESFJ mom and other FJ friends. I keep hearing this message "ENFPs are better socially" over and over and it's so frustrating to hear that when my social experience has been anything but easy. And for the record, as an ENFP, I don't have trouble not being taken seriously. If anything, people sometimes complain that I'm too serious!

If others choose to believe we can objectively rank another's subjective experience, and use external observation as a basis for self-degradation because they feel that their momentary, superficial observations could possibly have anything to do with the depth and complexity of internal experience, I guess that's up to them, but the Fi in me can't stand to not clarify how this does not line up with my internal experience, and it's kind of mind-blowing to me that a thread full of Fi-dominants doesn't seem very receptive to that.



It just feels like this whole conversation is laced with a strange solipsism because aside from a few exceptions, mostly the conversation in this thread seems much more focused on talking about their perception and impressions of experience than consideration of the validity of interpretation of the feelings in others' frameworks - and consideration that maybe interpretation of their subjective experience as objectively more difficult might not work out in others' frameworks. I'm genuinely surprised because I thought Fi was all about recognizing your own experiences as valid and allowing others' experiences to be valid to them, too.

I don't know. Don't take this as personal, anyone, because it's not. It's just an overall impression that I feel like I've been trying to engage in the thread but there's like an invisible wall that I keep hitting where my answers just aren't what people are looking for. There's the chance that it has nothing to do with INFPs, and I just haven't written anything particularly interesting or remotely resonant to anyone in general, and there's a chance it has to do with confounding variables like Enneagram, but it could also be a valuable clue in that I feel like perhaps because I'm asking for a reconsideration of INFP internal experience, me and my information are not seen as particularly worth social consideration.

 

[HongDou]

Just because someone seems to be receiving positive responses externally, it doesn't mean they feel any less pain internally. For me it was a long, hard, learned path to social fluidity. I went through a lot of embarrassment, a lot of faux pas, a lot of teasing, some messed up behavior, terrible self-esteem, and a lot of rejection before I got to the place I am now - and most of what I know I learned by mimicking my ESFJ mom and other FJ friends. I keep hearing this message "ENFPs are better socially" over and over and it's so frustrating to hear that when my social experience has been anything but easy.

I agree with this. From an outsider's point of view, you think I'd get along with my ESTP friend great and that we're best friends. And while she is one of my closest friends, literally every day I see her she'll say something that makes me either irritated or upset. But I usually just shrug it off and internalize it.

It also depends on what aspects of the social world you're talking about. Sure, ENFPs make for great conversation because of their upbeat attitude and quirky personality but if we're talking about aligning yourself with society's standards I would say we're not that great. Ne+Fi really clashes with Fe (at least in my experience) and I think ENFPs in the social world are frequently misunderstood a lot of the time. I often get dismissed with comments like "Haha oh my god, you're so weird" if I show an interest in something/say something/act someway that's off the beaten path. I think people peg me and probably other ENFPs as one of those "weird" people who it's socially acceptable to be friends with because they've made a name for themselves via their quirkiness. This is probably due to Ne-dom and why ENFPs are viewed as more socially competent than INFPs who are Fi-dom. But I think NFPs in general are awesome people and should be appreciated for who they are and not what they're perceived to be. Neither type seems inadequate to me because they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

That being said, the last two sentences can apply to any type.

 

[Amargith]

There is a reason I strive to be an xNFP hybrid; nothing like flipping between the two to get the best of both worlds: being taken serious and understood to be capable of depth and beauty, calm, and clear on what you believe and feel as well as socially engaging, approachable and able to see things from all angles sounds pretty awesome.

 

[Scott N Denver]

There is a reason I strive to be an xNFP hybrid; nothing like flipping between the two to get the best of both worlds: being taken serious and understood to be capable of depth and beauty, calm, and clear on what you believe and feel as well as socially engaging, approachable and able to see things from all angles sounds pretty awesome.

I'm totally with Amargith on this one. As a minor terminology clarification, I'm not sure I'd say I wish to become a XNFP hybrid so as much as I'd say "I'd like to be able to play in both worlds." Those two statements seem almost synonymous to me, though I perceive mine as dealing more with how things manifest or are expressed. Anyways

I dont appreciate having my thread called stupid or pointless or whatever. I would expect that Ne doms would better understand the notion of "collective brainstorming" and "playing with ideas to see what comes out of them or alternative ways to connect the dots." From where I sit this thread has highlighted both the strengths of ENFP's and INFP's, while allowing me to publicly converse with some other INFP's about shared experiences and perceptions. That is more than I was ever looking for or hoping for from this thread.

Whether this is ultimately fair or correct, I tend to see ENFP's and INFP's as largely opposite sides of the same coin. ENFP's often tend to do certain things better than INFP's often tend to. As a person who likes to watch others and see what they do well and learn from them, I enjoy watching and learning from ENFP's and trying to imitate or emulate what they do well. I'm sure that ENFP's see things that we as INFP's often tend to do better [for example ENFP's might get told they are weird eventually , whereas some of us INFP's {myself, OA, SK have all talked about this} being viewed as weird/intense/challenging/uncomfortable right out of the gate and then simply socially avoided from the getgo]. Some of those things have been pointed out in this thread. A wise ENFP would see those as learning opportunities and grow from them.

I dont think INFP's are deficient compared to ENFP's. I also don't think that ENFP's are deficient compared to INFP's. I have enjoyed commiserating with fellow INFP's about certain shared experiences, and I also appreciate the input from ENFP's on these topics as well.

NFP's are awesome!

 

[prplchknz]

Enfp's faces are inadequate

 

[PeaceBaby]

INFP's, do you ever feel inadequate compared to ENFP's?

No, not really. I am usually taken way more seriously which compensates for any ease I imagine they benefit from in social situations.

I am struggling to decide what to say in here. One way will sound like a lecture. Another way, a sermon. And yet another, like I have no empathy or compassion.

Maybe I will just briefly tell my story and take from it what you will.

In my 20's, faced with a desire to be more engaged in the life around me, I decided to learn how to be more extroverted in my approach. Upon reflection, that was basically the thrust of the whole decade. I believed I was at least capable of anything I set my mind to. That belief I think was a very valuable motivator.

I watched how people interacted and learned the social scripts. I worked in sales, cold-calling clients (to learn how to be comfortable with a variety of social skills.) I modeled (to get comfortable with my own body and presence.) I agreed to lead committees in the charities I volunteered with (to be ok with making decisions, speaking in front of others, and gaining leadership skills.) I got involved with the world.

I sang solos at church. Oh, how terrified I was to do that. People would say, "I could NEVER do what you do up there." Yet if they were in my body they would certainly know I feel as much or more fear than they ever could.

If I was afraid, I did it anyway. Except for sky-diving and giving blood. Last time I tried to donate I had a terrible migraine, replete with aura and the like. Still have those on my list, though. Repeating Se stuff that scared me in the past, now patterned into Si, is sometimes the hardest. Oh, I still have flying lessons on my list too. Almost did that when we were living in Wisconsin.

This saying was kind of a mantra:

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face. We must do that which we think we cannot.
-Eleanor Roosevelt​

There's nothing in there about it getting easier. After years of singing in front of others and still feeling scared, every time, I realized this to be the truth. I thought the fear would go away. Doesn't. And that is somehow ok.

Sometimes I have panic attacks when the stimulation builds high. It's how my body lets off the steam, and they can be a challenge. Yet FWIW, I would rather have my voice heard and say something imperfectly, shaking, wobbly voice, with my knees knocking in fear, than not hear the sound of my own voice making a contribution as valid as anyone else's thought.

It's our challenge point perhaps? Maybe it's what we are here to learn, somehow? To be heard in our own special way? What's inadequate about being here to grow? All of life is practice, not a destination to reach, it's all just practice, practice, practice.

I can't presume to know how easy it is for ENFP's to socialize, so I don't. I note the people in my world who communicate with ease and sincerity, and I seek to emulate the skills I admire. And somehow, they become my own through the belief that I can attain them. Weird thing that.

I do commiserate, but see little point in relating on the topic without putting a plan into action to attain that which I sense I lack.

 

[skylights]

I dont appreciate having my thread called stupid or pointless or whatever. I would expect that Ne doms would better understand the notion of "collective brainstorming" and "playing with ideas to see what comes out of them or alternative ways to connect the dots." From where I sit this thread has highlighted both the strengths of ENFP's and INFP's, while allowing me to publicly converse with some other INFP's about shared experiences and perceptions. That is more than I was ever looking for or hoping for from this thread.

I would prefer to just be addressed than to beat around the bush, honestly. I don't believe your thread to be stupid or pointless, though it's true that I don't understand what the point is and am straightforward in admitting that. Brainstorming isn't brainstorming when it's repeating the same idea over and over in different variations without room for external input. External input is the point of brainstorming. This thread, for the most part, has not been Ne-Fi brainstorming. It's been Fi-Si rumination. We're still going over the same point that we were at 8 pages ago. If this were Ne-Fi brainstorming, we'd be talking about spaceships by now, or kittens, or tantric sex, or rainbows. Or we would have looped away and back a number of times. But it's been steady and regulated, and that's not brainstorming.

I have enjoyed commiserating with fellow INFP's

Right. I'm glad (genuinely) if you get something out of that. I guess I'm really not the type to enjoy that sort of thing at all and I'm usually very frustrated by it, because I don't understand it. Obviously that's not your fault and I don't hold that against you, but I am frustrated that there doesn't seem to be more regard for the external in a thread that is about INFPs struggling with the external.

This thread demonstrates to me a facet of why some INFPs may be experiencing social adequacy issues: it seems like some approach the external world like it needs to give them something before they give to it. I understand and empathize that introversion may make it more challenging to express and demonstrate outward. All I'm saying is that all the external world needs to be more receptive is engagement. This thread as it stands is a huge example of non-engagement, and I'm trying to make that clear. I think maybe some introverts aren't even aware of the degree to which they engage with their own ideas more than being receptive to external stimuli - and that can make other people feel disregarded, because they are being disregarded, even if there is no malintent.

I got involved with the world. [...] All of life is practice, not a destination to reach, it's all just practice, practice, practice.

Yes.

 

[Scott N Denver]

I would prefer to just be addressed than to beat around the bush, honestly. I don't believe your thread to be stupid or pointless, though it's true that I don't understand what the point is and am straightforward in admitting that. Brainstorming isn't brainstorming when it's repeating the same idea over and over in different variations without room for external input. External input is the point of brainstorming. This thread, for the most part, has not been Ne-Fi brainstorming. It's been Fi-Si rumination. We're still going over the same point that we were at 8 pages ago. If this were Ne-Fi brainstorming, we'd be talking about spaceships by now, or kittens, or tantric sex, or rainbows. Or we would have looped away and back a number of times. But it's been steady and regulated, and that's not brainstorming.

I apologize for not knowing how to do a multi-quote over multiple pages. I saw amargith's reply and wished to quote it instead of quoting from you. If I knew how to multipage multiquote I probably would have.

fwiw I have read and reflected upon what you have had to say throughout this thread, and appreciate your inputs about "introverts just engage the rest of the world already!" I can not speak for others, but I have taken your external input. I probably feel little or no need to speak about it however. It would appear that you and I have different ideas of what constitutes brainstorming, at least in this matter. Perhaps more correctly it appears that where we "expect the brainstorming to manifest" is different. For me its in my personal life, not this thread.

If I watched an olympic marathon runner I would go "holy schnikeys, I feel like my running skills are very lacking." To me, thats not so much a statement that I suck as it is that they are really good at something, and if I wanted to get good at what they are good at I should pay attention to what they do and try to incorporate some of it.

In a martial art I formerly studied [moved, couldnt find it again], we talked a lot about "weak points" and how to fix them. In that worldview, it wasnt as important to be good at some things as it was to be "not bad at anything." "Sukki" I believe was the japanese word for that.

My intention for this thread, as already stated at least twice [though not in the specific words that follow], was to analyze particular "sukki" and get feedback form other INFP's to see if we generally held similar stances or not, and to see if they had additional inputs that I had not thought about or had overlooked. It was never my intention in this thread to perform "general social engagement." If others wish to do so they may. If you wish to start a thread dealing with "why dont INFP's socially engage more?!?" you are free to do so.

We all speak from our own biases and experiences. My background is very (S)TJ heavy and (E)FP-lacking. You have written here about being more used to Fe, your own history of social awkwardness, and your sometimes lack in thoroughly reading things and quickly jumping to conclusions. It seems to me like both of our backgrounds are reflected in how we see the value of this thread. No one is forced to be or post here, and anyone is free to start a new thread on some other topic if they so wish. I got what I am looking for from this thread, and general social engagement directly from this thread [as opposed to on my own in my own personal life] was never part of my aim so its apparent lack does not concern me. In my own personal life I will make some changes and additions, and see that I "have more options available now." To me that is moving beyond brainstorming and engaging in the world. I appreciate your inputs along the way, have noted them internally, and they are involved in certain personal adaptations I will perform over time.

 

[Scott N Denver]

No, not really. I am usually taken way more seriously which compensates for any ease I imagine they benefit from in social situations.

I am struggling to decide what to say in here. One way will sound like a lecture. Another way, a sermon. And yet another, like I have no empathy or compassion.

Maybe I will just briefly tell my story and take from it what you will.


I do commiserate, but see little point in relating on the topic without putting a plan into action to attain that which I sense I lack.

I do enjoy "tough love PB." For me, brainstorming and information collection is here, some processing is here some internal, then adjustments in my own personal life.

As Amar said earlier, and as I've basically said before somewhere or other, having access to the strengths of both types would be the ideal situation.

 

[entropie]

There is a reason I strive to be an xNFP hybrid; nothing like flipping between the two to get the best of both worlds: being taken serious and understood to be capable of depth and beauty, calm, and clear on what you believe and feel as well as socially engaging, approachable and able to see things from all angles sounds pretty awesome.

I wouldnt want only one half of a car

 

[Amargith]

I wouldnt want only one half of a car

Not even if that half a car turned out to be an amphibian car?

I aint no fan of cars, but an amphibian car would definitely turn my head