I have seen these patterns in some INFJs, but I can't say I've found it typical of them. It sounds like the INFJs you've known are more narcissistic than most I've encountered. Admittedly, my close contact with INFJs in real life has been limited (a few warm but not-quite-deep friendships). I've seen a lot of these cognitive biases you're describing in ENFJs though.
Interesting. I haven't noticed this much in ENFJs. I've seen a lot of deflection from them, but they usually try to do so with joking & flattery. I think this is typical to varying degrees with average to unhealthy INFJs.
I think this is a good take on INFJ/INFP conflict in situations where it's mainly the INFJ who is at fault. In my description I was trying to be objective, but I may have overemphasized the INFP's sensitivity and unintentionally made it sound like it's the source of most INFJ/INFP conflict; this is because it's sometimes easier for me to see my own flaws than those of others. (Which is also something that can make some IxFPs, (especially the e9s,) vulnerable to being condescended to and manipulated.)
YES. I see this & it frustrates me. Being e4, my sensitivity there comes through more as an anger. 9s don't allow themselves to get mad as much, which has its own plusses.
I've seen some INFJs get testy when their premises are questioned, but more often it seems like they just get silent. Sometimes it's hard for me to tell when an INFJ is subtly rejecting a viewpoint/brushing it off without even considering it vs. when they just need more time to process a differing opinion. Dominant Ni comes with a lot of cognitive strengths and some cognitive weaknesses, and I think one of those weaknesses is that (it's not as flexible as Ne; it settles on certain viewpoints and can be hard to budge. It's not always that the person won't consider different opinions; it's that it's natural for them to have one interpretation of something)* and they can't immediately "bounce" a perspective around like Ne-users can. (From my understanding of Ni vs. Ne; I might be off on this.) I'm guessing healthier INFJs will take a while to deeply process a differing viewpoint before ultimately either rejecting it or incorporating it and shifting their Ni perspective, while unhealthier ones will immediately reject it.
*Edit: Never mind. I think Ni by itself is very fluid/dynamic, while it's Ni+Je that can be rigid.
No, I think you were right to begin with. Extroverts adapt more than introverts, who try to make or at least want the external to adapt to them, or will remain indifferent to it. (*this is why socionics is wrong to say Pi-dom share behaviors that Jung & MBTI associates with Pe). The problem with INFJs is if they won't see an outside perspective & you can't reach them with a value-concept (reason in Fe style), then you're dealing with someone who can be extremely irrational with tunnel-vision. This is hard when you're a dominant rational & trying to use lines of reasoning with someone. This conflict exists less with INTJs because of shared Te/Fi I guess & perhaps because the intuition is less people/value-focused, so it's not rubbing Fi territory the wrong way.
That's interesting that you don't have the same painful sensitivity to being misunderstood that I do; I always thought that e4s were the most hurt by that.
Oh that's not what I meant. I thought you meant a painful sensitivity towards others, so I meant I am more detached from a personal judgement of them than sensitive to not making one; I'm comfortable leaving it in limbo, & it's more indifference than sensitivity. I also distinguish my personal taste from a value judgment enough to not be sensitive to forming a personal conclusion about someone (if I do). However, because I am sensitive to being misunderstood & unfair, hasty judgements (from those awful first impressions people stupidly rely way too much on).
I have a weird ability to not find someone personally appealing, but because I didn't form a universal type of judgment quickly, I am able to see enough positive traits that I don't really dislike them either. I find other people a lot more black & white & less distinguishing between "I like someone" and "they're a likable person" or even "they're a good person" or "they're good at X task", etc.
About INFP e9s vs. INFP e4s:
I think my sensitivity to being misunderstood partially comes from the e9 uncertain sense of self combined with the Fi need for connection with the self; when someone's interpretation of who I am contradicts my self-knowledge, I sometimes get a feeling that they could be right even though I intellectually disagree. (If I recognize that a criticism is objectively true, it still hurts but it's not as internally disorienting and painful as when I think I'm being misunderstood.) It feels like I'm letting someone else yank around my sense of self (a thing that's especially essential to me as an IxFP) with something that isn't even true, and I resent them for it, and I resent myself for letting them do that to me.
Maybe e4s (especially 4w5s) feel more resigned to being misunderstood, like they don't even expect most people to get them? Also, maybe their more certain sense of self isn't as vulnerable to feeling tilted by others' misperceptions.
My sense of self is not as tilted consciously....but I do internalize negative stuff & it sort of comes back to me as some self-criticism. Not until I was older did I realize this. In the moment I can be angry & reject it, but it's like I soaked it up as a sponge & it will leak out as if it originated in me. This is why I am aware that even if someone consciously does not feel hurt by something, it does not mean its not hurtful; things can affect people in ways they are not immediately aware of & may have difficulty tracing the source of later.
What I notice in e9s is sometimes a conflation of personal taste & moral judgement, as if it's mean or even wrong to dislike anyone, and so you must suppress or transform distaste for someone into some measure of acceptance of them, even if it's just in the form of their potential. I've seen many a 9 with a posse of undesirables clinging to them because the 9 is the only one able to tolerate them & offer some measure of friendship.
As a 4, you tend to do this conflation in an opposite way - it's almost morally offensive to have bad taste
. But feeling outcast in some way can make you compassionate to those undesirables also, but I think there are more barriers to keep you from being over-burdened by it.
I love your description of Fi and the difference between Fi values and FiTe judgments.
I relate to what you're saying about holding off on making universal value judgments about people, and I think it's true that e9s are less likely to even form a personal opinion (especially a strong one) right away. I form a tentative impression of someone, but part of me distrusts it, recognizes its fallibility if I don't know the person well, and thinks of possibilities of what the person could be like that could contradict my impression. (Similar to what PeaceBaby said about Pe trying to debunk Ji.) I think maybe e4s trust their impressions more, while still keeping them open to change. I don't trust the impression enough for it to become an opinion, for the doubts to stop dancing around the impression, until I've been around them a while. (And then it takes even longer to make a universal value judgment about them.)
I relate to this, but this is how I experience my "universal judgement". The personal taste thing is just not about impressions. It's like saying I like a song or not - it's not a value judgment really. Just because I don't personally like something doesn't make it bad or wrong. Perhaps this was learned, because I did used to pity date a bit, and I think honoring your personal preferences & tastes even if it "disqualifies" some from a relationship with you is not "mean" because it's not devaluing someone's worth. It's more like "doesn't suit me".
I haven't seen much of this yet in INFJs, but like I said earlier, I've mostly had contact with healthier ones. About the bolded: certainly most aren't this narcissistic? I hope not. I know NiFe categorizes people, but I don't think they normally do it in such a self-aggrandizing way.
About the "peon in their vision" thing - INFJ won't experience it as selfish or using people. They usually think this vision is for some greater good & will not see self-serving aspects of it (which will be well-hidden to many observers as well).
From my understanding: (Because INFJs are natural Ni users, not Fi users, most can't be as good as most INFPs are at "grasping" people in that deeply personal, microcosmic way. I think their way of understanding people
is more detached (from an Fi perspective) without really being objective either, but it's equally insightful in a different way.*
I agree with this, but I don't expect most would (except for NFPs). I wouldn't say I read people well at all; but I understand their expressions, motivations, feelings, etc. This is an area I find INFJs terrible at.
So I don't know if they're "equally insightful" about people as individuals. You could say that about any type; you can say they're X in "their own way", which may not be untrue, but it makes it hard to note general strengths & differences on a pattern level.
*Edit: From what I understand, Ni creates maps of reality (including other people) using conceptual impressions, and then Fe fits individuals into roles/categories. Ni's maps of people can be amazingly insightful and accurate, but sometimes to an Fi-user they seem to lack the "essence" of a person that we think our Feeling impressions capture. And of course, it's sometimes grating to IxFPs when we feel like we're being defined by external categories (Je) rather than internal essence (Ji).
Absolutely. I think the problem with Ni is when it's not informed by Je though. This is more troublesome for INFJs, IMO, because bad Feeling is often harder to spot as distorted than bad Thinking, and it can be manipulated to appear as something positive even if it's not. Contrary to popular belief, Fe is very much in service of the self, because it's part of the individual's ego no less than other type's dom/aux functions. So when Fe is mostly in service of Ni, it can force-fit things or ignore it/cut it out/run from it if it can't be fit. It's not a real harmonizing (or making sense) of the environment that good, rational Feeling does.
Loosely related: I also think that maybe INFJ empathy casts a wider net (maybe more easily triggered) and is more focused on "knowing" what others are feeling, while INFP empathy has a smaller net but is deeper and more focused on the 'vicarious experience' part of empathizing. (Maybe not; this could be another e9 thing.) But developed INFJs have their own brand of (amazing) depth just like developed INFPs do. INFJs rub me the wrong way occasionally, but I admire their strengths.
They don't need my admiration. They get enough butt-kissing to last them a lifetime. I find their depth consistently over-rated. Fair enough if it's hidden, but what's on display fails to impress me.
I meant that the way Ne jumps from one idea to the next related idea (instead of exploring a single idea from multiple angles like Ni) can seem annoyingly random and lacking in focus to NJs, like the intellectual equivalent of bouncing around the room. (But I've also heard INFJs say they find Ne refreshing and inspiring.)
Yes, but as Fi-dom, we don't necessarily do this. We can stop with an idea & tunnel deep into its meaning & significance, which is something of another angle on one idea (exploring ways of valuing it, especially by being aware it can have different values in different contexts, as if you use Ne to bring in another context on the same idea so as to grasp a more fundamental value & not just a contextual one.) With Fi in service of Ne, I just think there's far less "bouncing", and more exploring until something seems significant to go deeper with, and as you go deeper, Ne continues to bring in more contexts to keep going deeper, not bouncing to something else.
I don't have any grand point here, just keeping the convo going, as I think you said some interesting things
.
