[MBTI General] INFP/INFJ Friendship's End

[Eilonwy]

[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION] you are focusing on all the wrong things...

At first this made me chuckle, but when I woke up just a bit ago, I realized you are right. I have been focusing on the wrong things with you.

I am at my wits end... This is what I'll say to you.... I am an INFJ and I have NO idea what you are talking about... I cannot even relate to you...

I'm sorry about this--that I confuse you to this degree. I'm not yet sure what I can say that will help, but I'll keep trying. Okay?

Please do tell me, what were you like in your 20s and 30s?

How did you spend your free time?

What activities did you do?

What caused you the most distress?

Did you continously blame yourself for your failures and not being good enough?

I'm not going to take these questions so literally. Instead, I'm going to tell you this.

My whole life, I've felt shame and embarrassment whenever I've become aware that I've made a mistake. For a while, I tried acting arrogant and pushing all of that feeling out onto the people around me, but I ended up seeing what I had done and that was worse than dealing with the initial feelings. Even now, I'll feel sick to my stomach when I think about the mistakes I've made. I feel that I'll be judged harshly, that no one will like me. I walk on eggshells around myself, because I don't want to feel those feelings. I'm afraid they'll overwhelm me, so I go into analytical mode.

My whole life, I've had trouble setting good boundaries with other people. Again, I've tried hard tactics--setting such unrealistic and unfair boundaries that I felt worse for doing so. So, then I'd swing the other way and have almost no boundaries, which worked as far as how I felt, because I then could feel that I wasn't hurting other people's feelings by telling them "no", but it left me feeling used and angry. But I couldn't start blaming other people for me being afraid to tell them "no", so I became hyper-responsible while I learned to say "no". But then it seemed that people just wouldn't respect it when I told them "no". Having to tell them "no" over and over again felt like they weren't listening to me, and I would get angry. Why couldn't they hear me the first time and respect that? (Hint: I've found out that it's still unrealistic, because there are things I have to be told "no" over and over about as well.)

So, yeghor, if you're looking for some magic that will stop the feelings of shame and embarrassment, or that will help you in setting good boundaries, there is none. You already have the answer. You keep going. You keep trying. In spite of what you're feeling, you keep making the mistakes and learn to deal with the feelings. You figure out what a reasonable boundary is and you set it, even though it's uncomfortable to do so. You listen and you revise. You live and learn. You reach out to people and find that they aren't always as judgmental and scary as you imagined they were. It's not easy, and those uncomfortable feelings don't go away.

So, it may look to you like I've been confessing my sins so that I can be at peace, but that's not exactly what's happening. I've been looking at my blind spots and thought patterns, examining them and how they might contribute to the mistakes I might make. I've been answering other people's questions about what thought patterns might be at play in the problems they've experienced with INFJs. It hasn't really brought me peace--I still feel all of those feelings of embarrassment and shame. What it has brought me is strength and answers and tools to work with. But, I'm still learning, so maybe some measure of peace will come from this, too.

 

[Society]

[MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION], listen to yourself:
according to you - you are unable to separate between shame & guilt
according to you - you grow up with a sense of shame/guilt since your youth
according to you - that stemmed out of of your relationship with your parents
according to you - it angers you when anyone expects you to feel guilt/shame for anything as an adult.
according to you - it is wrong & cruel of anyone to make any statement which conflicts with your ego / sense of self.


does that description reminds you of anything? anything at all?


see, that's the funny thing about projection - it does happen, but it is not the magical "i am rubber and you are glue everything you say rubs off me and sticks to you" for adults. when projection happens you can actually demonstrate that there are all the symptoms of neurosis followed by a denial of the neurosis and a complete inability to rationally backup the assumed perceptions about others suffering from that very same neurosis.

This^ is exactly what you fail to understand and choose to remain ignorant of [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] ...

how on earth would i have being able to address & debunk that exact belief just now if i was ignorant about you having that belief? seriously - even if you could find a flaw in my argument - how would the act of addressing it have technically being possible?

I've always assumed you were an ENFP if you recall by the way...

sure - if i lived in the universe where objective reality is determined by how it complies with the ego of one mister yeghor, & and typology is a specially designed tool made by god (presumably yeghor himself) in order to reinforce that affect by defining Fi vs. Ti is defined as subjective vs. objective reality, i would have to be an ENFP. the funny thing about that universe - it has zero inhabitants, which is about the average population for places that don't exist.

 

[yeghor]

...My whole life, I've felt shame and embarrassment whenever I've become aware that I've made a mistake. For a while, I tried acting arrogant and pushing all of that feeling out onto the people around me, but I ended up seeing what I had done and that was worse than dealing with the initial feelings. Even now, I'll feel sick to my stomach when I think about the mistakes I've made. I feel that I'll be judged harshly, that no one will like me. I walk on eggshells around myself, because I don't want to feel those feelings. I'm afraid they'll overwhelm me, so I go into analytical mode.

I've failed to fit in in high school... I was a nerd and a wuss... Was also bullied...So I also tried to compensate feelings of self worth by acting all knowledgable (my strength) and arrogant... College was thankfully a much better and saner environment where intelligence was valued... A friend that I cared about in college told me that I was making fun of people at their expense...I contemplated on what he said and saw that he was right...and I hated myself for that... I was 20 y.o. I guess at that time... Then I gradually became more introverted and directed the shame and hate that I used to project outwards inwards...

That felt like the bottom of the pit and was the turning point for me I guess... I have been gradually climbing up the pit till today... Yeah I've made mistakes along the way... But I had to make them to learn better... I'll make more mistakes in future but I'll try to amend them if I can... That's part of life...

My whole life, I've had trouble setting good boundaries with other people. Again, I've tried hard tactics--setting such unrealistic and unfair boundaries that I felt worse for doing so. So, then I'd swing the other way and have almost no boundaries, which worked as far as how I felt, because I then could feel that I wasn't hurting other people's feelings by telling them "no", but it left me feeling used and angry. But I couldn't start blaming other people for me being afraid to tell them "no", so I became hyper-responsible while I learned to say "no". But then it seemed that people just wouldn't respect it when I told them "no". Having to tell them "no" over and over again felt like they weren't listening to me, and I would get angry. Why couldn't they hear me the first time and respect that? (Hint: I've found out that it's still unrealistic, because there are things I have to be told "no" over and over about as well.)

I started saying no and being assertive more often around 27-28... I am still trying to get better at it and not feel anxious when people try to still violate them forcefully...

So, yeghor, if you're looking for some magic that will stop the feelings of shame and embarrassment, or that will help you in setting good boundaries, there is none. You already have the answer. You keep going. You keep trying. In spite of what you're feeling, you keep making the mistakes and learn to deal with the feelings. You figure out what a reasonable boundary is and you set it, even though it's uncomfortable to do so. You listen and you revise. You live and learn. You reach out to people and find that they aren't always as judgmental and scary as you imagined they were. It's not easy, and those uncomfortable feelings don't go away.

I am not looking for a magic wand... I am trying to emphasize that most people DO NOT care this much about others and DO NOT self-criticize this much...I am seeing that daily...and also in this forum as well... So coming onto INFJs on grounds that they SHOULD care about others and berate themselves more is WRONG... So any kind of description regarding INFJs should be given in "complete context..."

In the horse example, if you simply focus on that horse decreasing its load, you can easily condemn it... But if you bring into the picture that other horses do not even carry that much load to begin with, then the whole scenario changes...

So, it may look to you like I've been confessing my sins so that I can be at peace, but that's not exactly what's happening. I've been looking at my blind spots and thought patterns, examining them and how they might contribute to the mistakes I might make. I've been answering other people's questions about what thought patterns might be at play in the problems they've experienced with INFJs. It hasn't really brought me peace--I still feel all of those feelings of embarrassment and shame. What it has brought me is strength and answers and tools to work with. But, I'm still learning, so maybe some measure of peace will come from this, too.

So I feel I've been on the right track... I can't see what I am doing wrong... This also has to work both ways... If I am trying to be self-critical and self-aware whereas others are not even trying, what's the point?

 

[yeghor]

[MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION], listen to yourself:
according to you - you are unable to separate between shame & guilt
according to you - you grow up with a sense of shame/guilt since your youth
according to you - that stemmed out of of your relationship with your parents
according to you - it angers you when anyone expects you to feel guilt/shame for anything as an adult.
according to you - it is wrong & cruel of anyone to make any statement which conflicts with your ego / sense of self.

does that description reminds you of anything? anything at all?

see, that's the funny thing about projection - it does happen, but it is not the magical "i am rubber and you are glue everything you say rubs off me and sticks to you" for adults. when projection happens you can actually demonstrate that there are all the symptoms of neurosis followed by a denial of the neurosis and a complete inability to rationally backup the assumed perceptions about others suffering from that very same neurosis.

how on earth would i have being able to address & debunk that exact belief just now if i was ignorant about you having that belief? seriously - even if you could find a flaw in my argument - how would the act of addressing it have technically being possible?

sure - if i lived in the universe where objective reality is determined by how it complies with the ego of one mister yeghor, & and typology is a specially designed tool made by god (presumably yeghor himself) in order to reinforce that affect by defining Fi vs. Ti is defined as subjective vs. objective reality, i would have to be an ENFP. the funny thing about that universe - it has zero inhabitants, which is about the average population for places that don't exist.

A friend that I cared about in college told me that I was making fun of people at their expense...I contemplated on what he said and saw that he was right...and I hated myself for that... I was 20 y.o. I guess at that time... Then I gradually became more introverted and directed the shame and hate that I used to project outwards inwards...

You should do this too... It hurts at first but gets better in time...

 

[Society]

You should do this too... It hurts at first but gets better in time...

"you are projecting! no you! no you are! no you! " <- dumbest muppet show ever.

 

[PeaceBaby]

"you are projecting! no you! no you are! no you! " <- dumbest muppet show ever.

And yet, right there is the crux of the matter, part of the problem, where things seems to get stuck. I've been thinking about what to do about it for a while, and have no answers yet. Working on it.

 

[yeghor]

Again, this is still an identity problem and 4s are one of the identity triad.

OK but it how come something that they accepted at childhood be their basic fear? Isn't it like saying INFJs basic fear is being fat and they accept that they should be fat at childhood... How can they embrace what they fear at childhood? Does that make sense?

No, you are the one trying to put INFJs in a narrow little box, irrespective of how well they actually fit into it.

You can keep throwing all these INFJ traits at me, but I can't leap to the sorts of conclusions you're making. One trait does not necessarily preclude the presence of another - simple as that. I need an argument for why they don't go together, not a longer lists of traits.

I also need you to stop bring yourself from this debate; all it seems to result in is flawed reasoning. This is basically what you've been saying:

Premise 1 - I am a INFJ
Premise 2 - I do not identify with type 4
Conclusion - The INFJ type does not correlate with type 4

There are so many holes in that I don't even know where to begin. I would rather not go down that very shaky path. However, if you wish to continue debating the nature of INFJs and 4s in a more objective sense, I will gladly do so.

Premise 1 - I am a INFJ
Premise 2 - I do not identify with type 4
Premise 3 - INFJs are defined as altruistic and perfectionists
Premise 4 - Enneagram 4 description is not about perfectionism and altruism
Premise 5 - Enneagram 4 description fits with cognitive function Fi and has "nothing" to do with Fe nor Ni
Premise 6 - INFJ has Ni-Fe
Conclusion - Therefore INFJ type could not be of the enneagram type 4 as a main type

It's interesting that you are choosing to focus on the first 2 though...

In your opinion...

I have received no argument or evidence from you to back up this statement. In fact, as far as I know, MBTI type is innate and not a product of environment. Enneagram, on the other hand, has a lot to do with environment.

Ok... INFJ = Ni-Fe so Ni in charge and Fe subservient to Ni... What does Ni mainly do and how may Fe be helping Ni? What is it that they do basicly?

Sorry, I haven't watched the video.

I don't get it. Why do you think "codependence" is not congruous with 4 drives?

Because enneagram 4 is focused on the self, if you check the descriptions, not on others... Codependent are focused more on others' needs than their own...

Now you're just taking the piss. You don't actually believe that do you?

It's true... It's Fi's doing... Trying to build up a unique identity... I am doing it nowadays as well...

They would simply be INFJ 4s.

Which I disagree with...

Not everyone is the same. INFJs aren't robots manufactured on an assembly line. Idiosyncrasies will always exists in addition to the general MBTI attributes, resulting in a variety of different outcomes.

Yes, but similar drives should concentrate around similar types...

That's not what I said. I was saying that there is nothing about Ni (or Fe for that matter) that inherently precludes it from existing in combination with the 4 type.

Perhaps for "Fe" when 4 is not the main type but the second or third... In the primary position it is impossible...As for Ni, 4 has nothing to do with Ni...

That's the whole problem. Stop doing that. It's circular reasoning.

Goddammit, isn't external type descriptions valid for reasoning...? Using myself as benchmark makes me notice inconsistencies about this whole issue and those description on the net seem to reinforce my suspicions...

There's also evidence that there's an overabundance of 4s on this forum according the official statistics, half of whom turn out to be INFJs and the other half IxFPs... How's that even possible?

There's also the issue of you liking enneagram 3s as your polar opposites... which means enneagram 3s may be which MBTI type?

There may be enneagram 3s mistyped as 4s and at the same time mistyped as INFJs in MBTI causing this overabundance...

Anyway, I think 4s and 3s should settle this between each other... I personally think that the true INFJ population of this forum is actually %10-20 of what it appears to be...

 

[cascadeco]

Goddammit, isn't external type descriptions valid for reasoning...? Using myself as benchmark makes me notice inconsistencies about this whole issue and those description on the net seem to reinforce my suspicions...

How exactly are you resolving the fact that you're mbti INFJ and socionics INFj (thought I saw at one point you said you were socionics INFj - maybe I'm wrong, in which case ignore this paragraph)? You wrote elsewhere that you thought mbti and socionics correlate. But, there's a totally different set of functions between mbti INFJ and socionics INFj. IF they correlate nicely, you're without a doubt mistyped in one of the systems. [I'm not saying *I* think they have to correlate, but if you think they do, then something is amiss in your own typings]

Regarding the whole enneagram thing, you keep harping on enneagram 1 being the pinnacle of Ni. And of course it would have to be, to fit your theory and for everything to make sense to you in your mind, since you're an INFJ e1. What if when I read the enneagram 1 description, I don't see that? If we're going by 'external type descriptions' and behaviors for enneagram, imo e1 is the pinnacle of Fe-dom or Te-dom, or at the very least, any of the 8 J types - that means ISTJ can easily be e1, as can ESTJ, and so on. Nothing to do with Ni, really. As others have pointed out, enneagram is about core motivations/fears... which transcend cognitive functions.

Though, you don't seem to care to acknowledge that. Because, it doesn't fit your own theory.

There's also evidence that there's an overabundance of 4s on this forum according the official statistics, half of whom turn out to be INFJs and the other half IxFPs... How's that even possible?

There's an 'overabundance' of 4's because: a)This is an online social forum, which attracts people who don't have as much going on in the real world; thus, more introverts, more intuitives, and since this is a psychological forum specifically, more misfits and people with psychological or interpersonal issues they're trying to deal with. 4's will often fall into a lot of these. It's no surprise there are lots of 4's, and 5's, and 6's..... and fewer 1's, 2's, 3's, 8's: who are out there in the 'real world' getting things done, and whose coping mechanisms aren't as much getting stuck in their head and prone to introspection/staying on a forum.

 

[Society]

And yet, right there is the crux of the matter, part of the problem, where things seems to get stuck. I've been thinking about what to do about it for a while, and have no answers yet. Working on it.

in general or here? in general, you can just try to explain:

see, that's the funny thing about projection - it does happen, but it is not the magical "i am rubber and you are glue everything you say rubs off me and sticks to you" for adults. when projection happens you can actually demonstrate that there are all the symptoms of neurosis followed by a denial of the neurosis and a complete inability to rationally backup the assumed perceptions about others suffering from that very same neurosis.

i find that this marks the difference between claiming projection to deflect arguments and recognizing a neurosis being projected.

as for those who take it to the far extreme in which every claim made on anyone is projection, ask them this: is every news reporters who reported on a crime must be a rapist or murderer for reporting that others are? how about anyone who gave a testimony in court? anything you see another doing? and how is it exactly that we are able to understand incredibly complicated levels of physics biology economical dynamic and yet somehow we loose any ability to reach a rational conclusion the moment the subject of our analysis is a person? our entire analytically capacity disappears the moment we're examining a human?

evidently this is not going to go through to everyone - you need the fundamental capacity to shift perspectives and ask yourself if the method in which you've used to defend your argument can also be used to disprove it - but in the vast majority of cases people are able to reason through it:
that projection needs to be taken with a grain of salt, needs to be backed up just like any other claim, not be taken for granted and assume as the default.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Premise 1 - I am a INFJ
Premise 2 - I do not identify with type 4
Premise 3 - INFJs are defined as altruistic and perfectionists
Premise 4 - Enneagram 4 description is not about perfectionism and altruism
Premise 5 - Enneagram 4 description fits with cognitive function Fi and has "nothing" to do with Fe nor Ni
Premise 6 - INFJ has Ni-Fe
Conclusion - Therefore INFJ type could not be of the enneagram type 4 as a main type

Hmm, some faulty logic and some questionable premises.

Enneagram and MBTI approach the concept of the psyche, the mental wiring if you will, from two different perspectives. MBTI is more concerned with the conscious, known part of the psyche and the enneagram from the unconscious, driven forces from the depth of the psyche. MBTI approaches discussion from the positive perspective, that all combinations of the E/I, T/F, N/S and J/P dichotomies are equally acceptable and valid. Enneagram approaches from the negative angles, the unseen, the things that drive us from a spectrum of unhealthiness to healthiness, each damaging to varying degrees.

There is a contrast that you are missing. If it helps, think of it as the difference between how we "think" (MBTI) vs how we "feel" (enneagram). The way we "think" does not have to match the way we "feel". Yes, there are some loose patterns and associations, tendencies if you will, between the two systems, but they do not pair together well because they are dealing with two different starting points and two different realms. Think of enneagram as the wine that colors the water glass. An enneagram 4 INFJ has a very different flavour than an e1. But think of it like that if you can, something that takes the way you "think" and colors it with the emotional tendency to "feel" from different perspectives.

MBTI presents a paradigm of altruism for INFJ that in reality does not exist for some INFJs. Yet they are, seemingly paradoxically, still INFJ. It is the descriptively rose-colored nature of MBTI that fails us, here.

eta: but you know what I appreciate yeghor? Is that you will set your premises out there for examination. Thanks for being open like that.

 

[Flâneuse]

Premise 3 - INFJs are defined as altruistic and perfectionists
Premise 4 - Enneagram 4 description is not about perfectionism and altruism

- MBTI is about cognitive functions, while Enneagram is about core issues. Different people of the same Myers-Briggs type can have different core issues. Many INFJ descriptions overemphasize e1 and e2 traits and underemphasize the e4/5/6/etc traits that often appear in that type. Similarly, I've read INFP descriptions that are so heavily tilted toward 9-ish issues that many INFP 4s would barely recognize themselves in it.

- What defines an INFJ is that they have Ni (introverted iNtuition) as their dominant function and Fe (extroverted feeling) as their auxiliary. Certain combinations of cognitive functions tend to correlate with certain traits and issues, but that doesn't mean that EVERY single person of a type will have the same traits/issues. That's why there's so much variance in how different people of a single type will relate to a particular type description.
So altruism and perfectionism may be common traits for INFJs, but that doesn't mean those traits are part of what defines INFJs. There are plenty of INFJs who are not altruistic and perfectionistic.

 

[yeghor]

What defines an INFJ is that they have Ni (introverted iNtuition) as their dominant function and Fe (extroverted feeling) as their auxiliary. Certain combinations of cognitive functions tend to correlate with certain traits and issues, but that doesn't mean that EVERY single person of a type will have the same traits/issues. That's why there's so much variance in how different people of a single type will relate to a particular type description.

What does this Ni-Fe do basically?

So altruism and perfectionism may be common traits for INFJs, but that doesn't mean those traits are part of what defines INFJs. There are plenty of INFJs who are not altruistic and perfectionistic.

There may be exceptions but exceptions don't break the rule... The type descriptions give the "average" and "most likely" traits of a "healthy" INFJ... So altruism and perfectionism (which must lie somewhere between enneagram 1 and 2) should have been much more abundant among INFJs...

Check this to see that among online INFJs, only 8% are of the e1 and e2 types...and 50% of them are of the e4 (which clearly has nothing to do with Fe) type... There's clearly a spill over from e4 to the INFJ type...most likely INFPs or ENFJs...

How exactly are you resolving the fact that you're mbti INFJ and socionics INFj (thought I saw at one point you said you were socionics INFj - maybe I'm wrong, in which case ignore this paragraph)? You wrote elsewhere that you thought mbti and socionics correlate. But, there's a totally different set of functions between mbti INFJ and socionics INFj. IF they correlate nicely, you're without a doubt mistyped in one of the systems. [I'm not saying *I* think they have to correlate, but if you think they do, then something is amiss in your own typings]

Do this test to see for yourself... http://www.sociotype.com/tests/

Regarding the whole enneagram thing, you keep harping on enneagram 1 being the pinnacle of Ni. And of course it would have to be, to fit your theory and for everything to make sense to you in your mind, since you're an INFJ e1. What if when I read the enneagram 1 description, I don't see that? If we're going by 'external type descriptions' and behaviors for enneagram, imo e1 is the pinnacle of Fe-dom or Te-dom, or at the very least, any of the 8 J types - that means ISTJ can easily be e1, as can ESTJ, and so on. Nothing to do with Ni, really. As others have pointed out, enneagram is about core motivations/fears... which transcend cognitive functions.

Though, you don't seem to care to acknowledge that. Because, it doesn't fit your own theory.

What does this Ni-Fe do basically? What does Fe-dom or Te-dom do basically? Consider the cases ENFJ and ENTJ for instance, what do they do and do what they do fit with enneagram 1? How?

There's an 'overabundance' of 4's because: a)This is an online social forum, which attracts people who don't have as much going on in the real world; thus, more introverts, more intuitives, and since this is a psychological forum specifically, more misfits and people with psychological or interpersonal issues they're trying to deal with. 4's will often fall into a lot of these. It's no surprise there are lots of 4's, and 5's, and 6's..... and fewer 1's, 2's, 3's, 8's: who are out there in the 'real world' getting things done, and whose coping mechanisms aren't as much getting stuck in their head and prone to introspection/staying on a forum.

I didn't know this was a psychological forum... Yeah you may right about e4s being more interested in self discovery...

In the bolded part is there a jab at me?

 

[cascadeco]

Do this test to see for yourself... http://www.sociotype.com/tests/

No thanks; you're not even addressing my question/point to you, and are sidestepping to get me to take a test, which is irrelevant to the point I was making, which was about YOUR views of the systems and YOUR types.

What does this Ni-Fe do basically? What does Fe-dom or Te-dom do basically? Consider the cases ENFJ and ENTJ for instance, what do they do and do what they do fit with enneagram 1? How?

Enneagram 1 description highlights "They are teachers, crusaders, and advocates for change: always striving to improve things", "Ones are people of practical action—they wish to be useful in the best sense of the word. On some level of consciousness, they feel that they “have a mission” to fulfill in life, if only to try their best to reduce the disorder they see in their environment."

Reducing disorder, practical action, directing/moving things externally towards their own internal vision. = Extroverted judging

You missed my overall point, though, which was about my reading e1 descriptions, and apparently getting something different out of it than you. Also, you missed that I was also emphasizing that tying enneagram to cognitive functions is NOT what enneagram is about: So what I was doing was simply looking at it the way you are -- tying cog functions to superficial enneagram descriptions, I simply come to a different conclusion when playing that game -- but really this isn't what it's about, at all. It's about core fears/motivations, not cognitive functions=enneagram; others in this thread have been speaking to enneagram much better than I.

In the bolded part is there a jab at me?

If anything, it's a jab at e4's and e5's, tbh... anyone whose coping involves going inward / self absorption/getting stuck in that cycle. Contrast with 1's, 2's, 3's, 8's, who are pretty scarce on the forum, but I think it's precisely because they're motivated and driven in other ways, cope in different ways, often-times more externally, keeping busy, goals they've set for themselves, focusing attention on objects or other people, vs. inwardly. Trends, of course.

 

[yeghor]

No thanks; you're not even addressing my question/point to you, and are sidestepping to get me to take a test, which is irrelevant to the point I was making, which was about YOUR views of the systems and YOUR types.

You would get your answer if you did the test...

 

[PeaceBaby]

You would get your answer if you did the test...

What is the question?

 

[Eilonwy]

I've failed to fit in in high school... I was a nerd and a wuss... Was also bullied...So I also tried to compensate feelings of self worth by acting all knowledgable (my strength) and arrogant... College was thankfully a much better and saner environment where intelligence was valued... A friend that I cared about in college told me that I was making fun of people at their expense...I contemplated on what he said and saw that he was right...and I hated myself for that... I was 20 y.o. I guess at that time... Then I gradually became more introverted and directed the shame and hate that I used to project outwards inwards...

What I've been learning is that feeling that shame and hatred towards yourself, while better in some small way than turning it outward where it doesn't belong, accomplishes nothing. It doesn't make amends to the people you were making fun of, it only makes you feel so bad that you end up getting stuck in it. So, what does one do with all that shame and hatred? Can't direct it out, can't keep it in. At the moment, I have no definitive answer for you. I only recently realized it myself, that I was still reacting this way emotionally. I have found, in the past, that I am able to let go of a lot of the shame and embarrassment when I take appropriate action to try to make amends. So, don't just feel sorry, try to show that you are sorry. Apologizing is good, but sometimes more is required--using your example--like not making fun of people at their expense any more. Has that worked for you? Are you able to let go of the shame and self-hatred if you take appropriate action to make amends? Or does it still stick with you?

That felt like the bottom of the pit and was the turning point for me I guess... I have been gradually climbing up the pit till today... Yeah I've made mistakes along the way... But I had to make them to learn better... I'll make more mistakes in future but I'll try to amend them if I can... That's part of life...

This is a good attitude to have. Be vigilant, though, as it can also be used as an excuse or rationalization.

I started saying no and being assertive more often around 27-28... I am still trying to get better at it and not feel anxious when people try to still violate them forcefully...

I've had trouble with this, too. I've been working towards being able to calmly continue to say "no" for as long as it takes. I also try to make sure that I take responsibility for those times that I decide to say "yes". If I say yes when I really mean no, that is no one's fault but my own. No one coerced me, except for maybe my own feelings of "I should" or "I'm expected to". If I decide to say yes as a favor, or because it feeds into my own ideal of who I am, it is still my own decision and I don't feel used if what I did ends up not being appreciated. Does all of that make sense to you? Does it seem like a reasonable way to think about setting good boundaries?

I am not looking for a magic wand... I am trying to emphasize that most people DO NOT care this much about others and DO NOT self-criticize this much...I am seeing that daily...and also in this forum as well... So coming onto INFJs on grounds that they SHOULD care about others and berate themselves more is WRONG... So any kind of description regarding INFJs should be given in "complete context..."

In the horse example, if you simply focus on that horse decreasing its load, you can easily condemn it... But if you bring into the picture that other horses do not even carry that much load to begin with, then the whole scenario changes...

I misunderstood what you were looking for. I was basing my response on what I have looked for in the past, which is a set of unchanging rules for dealing with the feelings or setting up boundaries (magic). Although it's possible to make up a strict set of rules, I've found that it doesn't work very well. Life requires the capacity to bend when necessary, and strict rules, by definition, don't bend.

Regarding the bolded: I used to think that way, but I can't any more. I could only see the load I was carrying, and I imagined that others weren't carrying the same load, because the load you're talking about is an inner load. It's not something you can readily see. And, sometimes, even when I could 'see' that someone was carrying the same, or even a heavier, load, I still couldn't see past the load I was carrying. I still have times when I can't look past the load I'm carrying, and part of my problem is that I can be very picky about asking for help and accepting help that doesn't match what I think I need.

Self-criticism can come out in different ways, so saying that other types don't self-criticize as much as INFJs is not a fact. They might not self-criticize in the same way that we do, but, then again, our way of self-criticizing seems rather out-of-proportion and unhealthy to me now.

I'm afraid that what I've written here will just be more confusing to you instead of being helpful. I'm trying to lighten your load, but it might appear to you that I'm actually adding to it instead. A good first step might be to simply look to see if other people are actually carrying less than you. Stop and notice those things. Look closely at what load you're actually carrying. Is it mostly emotions? What can you do to lighten your own load?

So I feel I've been on the right track... I can't see what I am doing wrong... This also has to work both ways... If I am trying to be self-critical and self-aware whereas others are not even trying, what's the point?

I think you're on the right track, too. However, the point is that improving yourself has nothing to do with other people and everything to do with you. There is no real reason that it has to work both ways.

My question in this circumstance has been a little different than yours: How do I practice self-awareness in a society that doesn't generally value, encourage, or understand it? Even if I never find an answer to this question, I still feel it's worth it to me to continue trying to be self-aware.

 

[yeghor]

What I've been learning is that feeling that shame and hatred towards yourself, while better in some small way than turning it outward where it doesn't belong, accomplishes nothing. It doesn't make amends to the people you were making fun of, it only makes you feel so bad that you end up getting stuck in it. So, what does one do with all that shame and hatred? Can't direct it out, can't keep it in. At the moment, I have no definitive answer for you. I only recently realized it myself, that I was still reacting this way emotionally. I have found, in the past, that I am able to let go of a lot of the shame and embarrassment when I take appropriate action to try to make amends. So, don't just feel sorry, try to show that you are sorry. Apologizing is good, but sometimes more is required--using your example--like not making fun of people at their expense any more. Has that worked for you? Are you able to let go of the shame and self-hatred if you take appropriate action to make amends? Or does it still stick with you?

Yeah certainly... though it appears I disarmed myself in the process... There's still left-over shame but it's more about myself than others... I try very hard not to offend people and when I do I try to make amends and apologize... When I offend people I mostly feel guilt I guess... The shame is more about myself not being able to stand up for my own rights more...being fearful and weak... It's an ongoing process though...

This is a good attitude to have. Be vigilant, though, as it can also be used as an excuse or rationalization.

It's OK to cut oneself some slack sometimes... It helps to develop Ne...

I've had trouble with this, too. I've been working towards being able to calmly continue to say "no" for as long as it takes. I also try to make sure that I take responsibility for those times that I decide to say "yes". If I say yes when I really mean no, that is no one's fault but my own. No one coerced me, except for maybe my own feelings of "I should" or "I'm expected to". If I decide to say yes as a favor, or because it feeds into my own ideal of who I am, it is still my own decision and I don't feel used if what I did ends up not being appreciated. Does all of that make sense to you? Does it seem like a reasonable way to think about setting good boundaries?

If someone asks you a favor and you agree to it, then that's your decision and it's good to stick with it... If you did best and the other party doesn't appreciate at least your effort, then it would be good to not grant them favors anymore... There are also people who are quite adept at using other people's triggers to make them do favors... If you detect such a pattern (if it becomes too frequent or too one-sided), it would be OK to deny the favor too... some people have no qualms about taking advantage of others...

I misunderstood what you were looking for. I was basing my response on what I have looked for in the past, which is a set of unchanging rules for dealing with the feelings or setting up boundaries (magic). Although it's possible to make up a strict set of rules, I've found that it doesn't work very well. Life requires the capacity to bend when necessary, and strict rules, by definition, don't bend.

It's just knowing and honoring one's own preferences and not rewarding\enabling others who violate them...even after you tell them not to...

Regarding the bolded: I used to think that way, but I can't any more. I could only see the load I was carrying, and I imagined that others weren't carrying the same load, because the load you're talking about is an inner load. It's not something you can readily see. And, sometimes, even when I could 'see' that someone was carrying the same, or even a heavier, load, I still couldn't see past the load I was carrying. I still have times when I can't look past the load I'm carrying, and part of my problem is that I can be very picky about asking for help and accepting help that doesn't match what I think I need.

Self-criticism can come out in different ways, so saying that other types don't self-criticize as much as INFJs is not a fact. They might not self-criticize in the same way that we do, but, then again, our way of self-criticizing seems rather out-of-proportion and unhealthy to me now.

Well there are people around me who have no qualms about calling others paranoid, delusional or the sort and threaten to beat them up and still don't feel guilty enough to apologize or make amends... or other people who make fun of others based on intelligence or skill or lack thereof and don't feel guilty to make amends... So I can see that their conscience doesn't carry as much burden as mine does...

I'm afraid that what I've written here will just be more confusing to you instead of being helpful. I'm trying to lighten your load, but it might appear to you that I'm actually adding to it instead. A good first step might be to simply look to see if other people are actually carrying less than you. Stop and notice those things. Look closely at what load you're actually carrying. Is it mostly emotions? What can you do to lighten your own load?

I see around me that people offload their negative emotions onto others quite easily like yelling, belittling, cussing, intimidating etc...and they don't feel remorse for that... It seems to have become the norm... The guys superior slanders him, and then the latter offloads that negative feeling to whomever he perceives to be weak around him like his subordinate or his wife or his children or a dog even... It's considered normal in my country... Similar things are also happening in this forum... So as far as my country and this forum is concerned, the average feeling of remorse and conscience seems to be below my that of my own...

As for decreasing the load, honoring my own preferences and standing up for them...

I think you're on the right track, too. However, the point is that improving yourself has nothing to do with other people and everything to do with you.

My question in this circumstance has been a little different than yours: How do I practice self-awareness in a society that doesn't generally value, encourage, or understand it?

Yeah there are parts of me that I am still ashamed of, which makes me vulnerable to external feedback by others... In time, I hope I'll overcome them so that my own emotional integrity and sanity will be less dependent on how other people treat me but how I really feel about myself...hopefully...

 

[Flâneuse]

What does this Ni-Fe do basically?

The type descriptions give the "average" and "most likely" traits of a "healthy" INFJ... So altruism and perfectionism (which must lie somewhere between enneagram 1 and 2) should have been much more abundant among INFJs...

I like this brief explanation of INFJs e4s, and I've found it to be true from my limited experience with them: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6211&p=224889&viewfull=1#post224889

From what I understand:
Ni creates "maps" of reality made of conceptual impressions. Fe makes value judgments about what is perceived and also feels the urge to establish connections with others. As Ni-doms, INFJs are often much pickier than Fe-doms about who they choose to connect with, and they also tend to express Fe in a more idiosyncratic way than an Fe-dom because it's "filtered" through Ni. Some INFJs have the classic e2-ish Fe though, while others (like some e4s) have a "pricklier" Fe. I agree that most INFJs have an altruistic streak, but its prominence varies depending on how and how much Fe is used.
If I'm reading you right, the point of your question was to make me realize that the way Ni+Fe works results in certain traits like perfectionism and altruism. I agree that this function combination does usually lead to these traits (in varying degrees), but that doesn't mean that those are the core issues of most INFJs. e4s can be very perfectionistic too; it's just not the core issue for them like it is for an e1. Also, e4s aren't all about ego; I've met many who have a strong nurturing/altruistic streak as well. People can have traits that seem to contradict each other. But yes, I do think that INFJs often have an e1 "flavor" because of their Je, even when it isn't their core type.

Check this to see that among online INFJs, only 8% are of the e1 and e2 types...and 50% of them are of the e4 (which clearly has nothing to do with Fe) type... There's clearly a spill over from e4 to the INFJ type...most likely INFPs or ENFJs...

You say e4 has nothing to do with Fe, but you think ENFJs (FeNi) are more likely to be e4s than INFJs (NiFe)?

 

[yeghor]

From what I understand:

Ni creates "maps" of reality made of conceptual impressions. Fe makes value judgments about what is perceived and also feels the urge to establish connections with others. As Ni-doms, INFJs are often much pickier than Fe-doms about who they choose to connect with, and they also tend to express Fe in a more idiosyncratic way than an Fe-dom because it's "filtered" through Ni. Some INFJs have the classic e2-ish Fe though, while others (like some e4s) have a "pricklier" Fe. I agree that most INFJs have an altruistic streak, but its prominence varies depending on how and how much Fe is used.

Yeah something like that... Ni is collecting patterns and impression of the Fe layer of information in the external world, thereby creating a mini Fe-model of the external world... Fe layer is about human behaviour both at individual and social level...

So Ni-Fe ends up internalizing a "model" of the Fe-layer inside the individual... That model is the "superego"... The model functions as an internal guiding force for the individual...

The superego (German: Über-Ich)[26] reflects the internalization of cultural rules, mainly taught by parents applying their guidance and influence.[8] Freud developed his concept of the super-ego from an earlier combination of the ego ideal and the "special psychical agency which performs the task of seeing that narcissistic satisfaction from the ego ideal is ensured ... what we call our 'conscience'."[27] For him "the installation of the super-ego can be described as a successful instance of identification with the parental agency," while as development proceeds "the super-ego also takes on the influence of those who have stepped into the place of parents — educators, teachers, people chosen as ideal models."[28]

The super-ego aims for perfection.[24] It forms the organized part of the personality structure, mainly but not entirely unconscious, that includes the individual's ego ideals, spiritual goals, and the psychic agency (commonly called "conscience") that criticizes and prohibits his or her drives, fantasies, feelings, and actions. "The Super-ego can be thought of as a type of conscience that punishes misbehavior with feelings of guilt. For example, for having extra-marital affairs."[29] Taken in this sense, the super-ego is the precedent for the conceptualization of the inner critic as it appears in contemporary therapies such as IFS and Voice Dialogue.[citation needed]

The super-ego works in contradiction to the id. The super-ego strives to act in a socially appropriate manner, whereas the id just wants instant self-gratification. The super-ego controls our sense of right and wrong and guilt. It helps us fit into society by getting us to act in socially acceptable ways.[1]

So from my understanding, Ni-Fe means a superego dominant mechanism, an over-developed conscience which results in codependent behaviour...

If I'm reading you right, the point of your question was to make me realize that the way Ni+Fe works results in certain traits like perfectionism and altruism. I agree that this function combination does usually lead to these traits (in varying degrees), but that doesn't mean that those are the core issues of most INFJs. e4s can be very perfectionistic too; it's just not the core issue for them like it is for an e1. Also, e4s aren't all about ego; I've met many who have a strong nurturing/altruistic streak as well. People can have traits that seem to contradict each other. But yes, I do think that INFJs often have an e1 "flavor" because of their Je, even when it isn't their core type.

You say e4 has nothing to do with Fe, but you think ENFJs (FeNi) are more likely to be e4s than INFJs (NiFe)?

e4 descriptions are all about the self and ego... perfectionism and altruism are core traits in INFJ descriptions...

I think ENFJs and INFPs share a crossover between enneagrams 3 and 4... Some enneagram 4s may be mistyped 3s as well, hence ENFJs...

 

[Society]

to be clear, @yeghor, according to you - the super ego, a.k.a. a main element within freud's treatise about how the emotional frameworks operate in all human beings - was actually based on a cognitive function match that persists somewhere between 1 to 3% of the human population...

how exactly would he have done that mistake? did they kill all the non-INFJs in Vienna?