[INFJ] INFJs: way too subtle, way too blunt?

[Quay]

But I myself walk around eggshells and then out of nowhere will swing the hammer when I have had enough.

I do this.

This is a super interesting point. I would be very curious to know if there is a significant shift in the ratio of personality types in different cultures. There are plenty of cultures where showing any kind of strong emotion is very much frowned upon. As a result, I suspect people adapt by learning to be extra conscientious about subtle cues. And I'm definitely not an expert on any foreign culture, but my very limited understanding is that some cultures have developed very elaborate rituals for interaction that communicate what the person is thinking.

I think mochajava is partially correct in that within America culture some emotions are considered a burden or a sign of weakness. But I also think that showing other emotions is viewed as a sign of strength. Emotions such as anger and exhilaration are valued when they are perceived to be sort of masculine and combative.

My father is West African. I NEVER cry in front of him. Pragmatism is worshipped in his culture. If I am taking on a task with a blank face, and sweating (similar to how the women pound yams back home), then I am on the "right track".

 

[SilkRoad]

I know you're right, but I still think it's unreasonable that people can't stop and think? Or just look at your face? The people who have known me best can read me... though my INTJ husband can't, and I really, really hate it. I know this isn't a helpful resentment and sometimes I just have to shake him and say, "listen to me! I need to be listened to right now." (that's basically how things work in his family -- he clued me in. So I have to do that with him / his family members... though it takes a lot of energy, so I only usually bother doing it with him. I suppose I want my other relationships to be a little easier).

Yes...I really, really wish people would stop and think. You know, it's funny. I don't think of myself as a very "intuitive" INFJ. I certainly don't get on board with the "I am soooo intuitive and never wrong about anyone and how they are feeling" thing that some INFJs do, because I find that presumptuous. Yet - maybe I am giving myself a bit less credit than I should. I do expect people to read my subtle indications, obviously. And to a certain extent that is because I am reading theirs quite accurately, not all the time, but a lot of the time - higher than average, I guess. But...like you, I think things would be at least a bit better with human relationships if people just...tried a bit harder. It doesn't seem like they do in many/most cases. It seems like they don't care enough to try a bit harder.

Another thing I've found is that people from my ethnic background (South Asians) whether in the US or back in India, are incredibly good at reading the emotional state of people around them. When I set foot in India, I get better at it too. This sounds silly, but it's actually not. There, it's incredibly important for getting things done and maybe even survival in some cases. Also, people are more expressive with their emotions and are MUCH more likely to say what they think, ask personal questions, give you advice, heckle you. In fact, the idea of boundaries / personal space that exist so strongly here don't exist there at all.

Here, immersed in American culture (that's where I'm typing from), we seem to view emotions as a sort of burden (look above -- we talk about wanting to control our emotions, how we're "supposed" to feel, etc) and I think that colors how we relate to them. It also colors how much others feel like they need to deal with our emotions, and I think this is partly why the onus is entirely on the person with feelings.

Yes, this is very very interesting. My background is part Scandinavian, and part Canadian of largely English extraction - I would say my dad's family (the Canadian/English side) is very very English in a lot of ways. People often think he's English. And I grew up in Canada. Basically, I come from a repressed northern kind of background And you know, in a lot of ways I quite like it. I understand reserve and even shyness and I CERTAINLY understand personal space. I think I'd have a rough time living in cultures without much concept of that. Although I have travelled a lot, it has also largely been in the West (though I really, really want to go to India!). I found the "no personal space" thing a bit rough when I was travelling in Morocco and Egypt, though I loved those experiences too - and they were only trips, not living there, so in that respect it really wasn't a problem. I've also been to Japan but they TOTALLY understand the personal space thing there!

I think in cultures such as those you describe, my knee-jerk reaction (again speaking as a repressed northerner!) is that people are being nosy and intrusive. Just for instance, I've met people from many cultures who will just ask you straight up if you're married. I think Westerners find that a bit rude. It's like, the other person is supposed to wait until you mention your husband or boyfriend or the fact that you're single or whatever. But on the other hand - why should it be a problem, really? It's interesting what you say about "getting things done" and "survival." Sometimes you just...waste time if you tiptoe around the issues at hand. I'm realising that. This is getting a bit off topic I guess, but in terms of relationships (something I have some experience with, but not a whole lot) I used to think the whole thing was romantic with "does he like me or doesn't me? Ooh, what did it mean when he said that?" etc etc. Now...maybe because I'm a little older and still single ...I'm a bit more like "ok...this is just getting frustrating. What's going on? Let's stop playing games." Ok, I don't think I've ever actually come out and said that but I certainly think it! It's particularly sad where you end up wondering if you missed an opportunity with someone who might have been good for you, because neither of you could just come out and say what they were thinking and feeling - or whatever.

I have an American friend who loves the Middle East and also loves Arab guys...speaking for myself, I think she has a bit of a weird obsession, but to each their own! But one of the things she says is "they don't play games...if they like you, they just tell you." I think it would be nice to find someone who does the romantic tiptoeing around you for a SHORT TIME...and then comes out and says they like you

 

[stellachiara]

Is it always commenced verbally or indicated in some way as it's happening? Or does it sometimes just happen without warning?

If someone was to confront the INFJ about the doorslam, would the INFJ be willing to discuss it or confirm that it did indeed happen? Or generally no?

EmeraldCanopy, I for one would welcome that at any time. That is because the reason for my doorslam is almost always that the person displays a blatant lack of interest in my feelings or needs, despite my efforts to get some reciprocity going. So if someone came out and asked me directly, "Hey, are you not talking to me? What's up?" I would be deliriously happy that 1) they cared enough to ask that, and 2) they were open to having a straightforward conversation about our relationship.

 

[Fidelia]

Yep, me too. I don't doorslam easily and I also am usually willing to reconsider if I think there is a likelihood of what's bad about the situation changing. Reciprocity is big.

 

[mochajava]

Seems like the INFJs concur. To summarize:
1) Say something (kindly)
2) Do it in writing.
3) Ask questions about what happened.

 

[eclare]

So if someone came out and asked me directly, "Hey, are you not talking to me? What's up?" I would be deliriously happy that 1) they cared enough to ask that, and 2) they were open to having a straightforward conversation about our relationship.

Out of curiosity, what do you do if, after having that conversation the other person continued engaging in whatever behavior it was that drove you away in the first place. Or even worse, argued with you and told you why your feelings were wrong. When I get around to doorslamming, it's usually because I've expressed my feelings pretty clearly already and the other person simply refuses to change their behavior.

 

[Fidelia]

No more certain way to close me up and exasperate me than tell me why I'm wrong and not change any behaviour when it's been clearly expressed that it is a problem. Usually until there's evidence of change in that case, the doorslam would remain.

 

[SilkRoad]

Seems like the INFJs concur. To summarize:
1) Say something (kindly)
2) Do it in writing.
3) Ask questions about what happened.

Yup, I concur too. You have at least a decent chance in this case. Showing that you're trying to understand me, and that you have some understanding that your behaviour was a problem, is big.

As for the behaviour continuing which caused the doorslam...that would result in another doorslam sooner or later, I'd say.

 

[stellachiara]

Out of curiosity, what do you do if, after having that conversation the other person continued engaging in whatever behavior it was that drove you away in the first place. Or even worse, argued with you and told you why your feelings were wrong. When I get around to doorslamming, it's usually because I've expressed my feelings pretty clearly already and the other person simply refuses to change their behavior.

I think I've only ever had a total of ONE person who actually had that conversation with me, and the person was my sister, who had a large investment in maintaining a relationship with me. She finally decided to take me seriously, and I suspect that is because she knows I am willing to cut off even family members if they belittle or dismiss my needs or feelings. Telling me my feelings or needs are wrong or not to be taken seriously is pretty much grounds for a cutoff, and the older I get, the quicker I will do it. I've only ever permanently cut one person who I was actually good friends with, and that is because she was abusive for years and at some point I just got strong enough to not take it anymore. The only other people I've permanently cut have been people I either met once or I knew only from Facebook or other online communities. With people I know in person, if they don't outright disrespect or invalidate me, but there is just something getting in the way from me feeling good with them, I'm more likely to directly talk to them about it, and when (I'm sorry to say that it's almost always "when," not "if") they elect to ignore what I say and try to go on as if I never said it, I'm more likely to fade out than cut off. Then there are people who I can't really point out anything they're exactly doing to make me uncomfortable with them, but we're just not really compatible, even though for some reason they think we are Those people I am also likely to fade out on, because I can't think of any way to say "Our ways of looking at life are so incredibly different and you are so completely unaware or uncaring of that fact that I can't really relax around you even though you're a very nice person and I wish you the best."

 

[stellachiara]

Seems like the INFJs concur. To summarize:
1) Say something (kindly)
2) Do it in writing.
3) Ask questions about what happened.

Very much agreed!

 

[stellachiara]

Seems like the INFJs concur. To summarize:
1) Say something (kindly)
2) Do it in writing.
3) Ask questions about what happened.

Very much agreed!

 

[jcloudz]

subtle like a pink elephant

 

[stellachiara]

What shade of pink are we talking about here?

 

[mochajava]

stellachiara Telling me my feelings or needs are wrong or not to be taken seriously is pretty much grounds for a cutoff, and the older I get, the quicker I will do it.

Right on! I think more of us need to consider cutting off or at least very quickly raise the issue of someone tells us our feelings or needs are wrong. I have something similar happening with my sister right now. Good to know that standing your ground paid off.

 

[Evi]

I think I also normally err on the too subtle side, for fear of hurting the other person, but then often enough I blow up and end up hurting them anyway which really doesn't work. But I think/hope I'm a bit better at expressing myself than I used to be.
I also agree with saying something kindly in writing to ask about a doorslam. There are a few people that I have shut out that I would really like to have contact me and ask me why we don't talk anymore, because I actually care about them a great deal. But it was far to much of a one-sided friendship and I don't think they really cared that much. On the other hand there is someone I have truly doorslamed but they keep sticking their fingers under the door and I'd love to chop them off. They have repeatedly demonstrated that their behavior has not changed, nor do they think it needs to change and refuse to consider the possibility that they are very, very wrong. I really wish they would leave me alone but they won't.

 

[SilkRoad]

There are a few people that I have shut out that I would really like to have contact me and ask me why we don't talk anymore, because I actually care about them a great deal. But it was far to much of a one-sided friendship and I don't think they really cared that much.

Yeah, I hear you on this. It's a sad situation, but if they don't even care enough to make contact and redress the balance of the friendship somewhat, perhaps it's for the best.

 

[mochajava]

Why do you think many of us on this thread end up in one-sided relationships? Is it just something that happens from time to time? Or a consequence of some shared tendency?

 

[SilkRoad]

Why do you think many of us on this thread end up in one-sided relationships? Is it just something that happens from time to time? Or a consequence of some shared tendency?

Not sure I can speak for all INFJs...but personally...I just end up feeling like a sad needy individual who automatically invests more in friendships, potential relationships, and actual relationships than the other person will ever bother to do with me.

Unfortunately, it can make you feel like you're just not worth much of other people's investments.

sorry...having a down day

 

[Evi]

Yeah, I hear you on this. It's a sad situation, but if they don't even care enough to make contact and redress the balance of the friendship somewhat, perhaps it's for the best.

Yes at the moment I would say it's for the best. I feel more or less ok with that situation.

I seem to end up in a lot of one sided friendships, either me caring more about them than they do or trying to distance myself from someone I really don't like but respect enough to not be their friend, because it wouldn't be real, I'd be faking it. Does that makes any sense?
I don't really know why it happens, I think other people would say it's because I'm not very open.

 

[mochajava]

Evi and Silkroad, I have got to say that you are being hard on yourselves -- Evi, I think you're probably open enough, but it makes sense to close off a few things, just for the sake of balance and sanity. Like a budget or bank account, our energy stores are limited. If you were running a deficit in either of those areas, you'd see what you could stop spending on, right? Same is true here... so distancing from someone you're not friends with but don't want to waste your precious I-for-introverted social energies on (not said sarcastically at all, I promise!) seems perfectly logical and healthy to me. I think other people do this all the time, but without second-guessing themselves like INFJs often do.

And Silkroad -- I definitely understand how you feel! I was new in town last year (grad program), and I really reached out to several women, but it felt like they weren't returning it. And then I stopped reaching out. And they never reached out. Then something like tension ensued. Now I only hear from them when they want something (favors, job contacts, rides, other information), and it hurts like hell if I think about it. I guess it's important to remember that even with a few "defeats" you, as a full being, can still be a "success". Some of those come just because of ... probability. Randomness. Nothing to do with you. What I'm saying is that even in the case of these women last year, it's not necessarily the case that I caused them some great aversion (combined with giving off a huge doormat vibe). I mean, it MIGHT be, but most likely it's not. I say that judging by the fact that there are many other successful, mutual relationships in my life (though family is not one! ).

Please forgive me for jumping in and giving advice, but when I see people being extra-tough on themselves, it kind of presses a button and it's hard for me to hold back. So I apologize if this was not useful for you at all, but though I would take the risk of sharing just in case it was.