[Jungian Cognitive Functions] INFJ / INTJ struggles with Sensor (e) world?

[cafe]

OH! I forgot! ONCE, I left the house early one morning to go to a staff meeting; I was aghast when one of my male colleagues started laughing out loud, POINTING AT MY SHOES... I had inadvertently worn one black and one navy blue pump! I was livid! :blushing: I played it off well and laughed at myself! (I did this one other time, but at church!!! This time, it was one pointed toe and one rounded toe black pump -- it was awful! ) *thud*

At one time, I had reasoned that since my feet are so small (size 5.5), it's hard to find shoes that can fit correctly. So when I found a good pair of shoes that I liked, I got a pair of each color that I could find. Never again... those dark shoes all look the same underneath the bed in a dark room. :rolli:

Hah! That's nothing! I once wore a white tennie and a brown loafer to pick up my kids from school. And I always park and go up to the playground to collect them so I know somebody had to have noticed. Nobody said anything about it, though.

I also once wore burgundy panties under white knit skirt to church on a day I couldn't find my slip. I was so lucky that I'd brought some pants to change into after service or I would have been stuck like that for both services.

A-freaking-men!! Now, this may only be the first time it's hit me, but I can see it needing to happen over and over, and that's why I can't even seem to climb out this first time. Seems pointless.


Let's face it.. society, especially American, just isn't fit for NFs. How can service-oriented types thrive within a capitalistic culture that pretty much forces you to screw over others or "beat the system" to get ahead? Not to mention teaches you not to trust anybody.. even though we want to love them. ><

Ugh! Yes! I also hate the reality distortion field that seems to surround most organizations and institutions. They tell you completely bogus things and even get all morally superior on you about it. I'll be just standing there wondering if they actually believe the BS that is falling out of their mouth or if they think I'm a complete moron and wondering if so many people buy it that they never question it themselves. It's so frustrating! I can't even pretend to play along anymore.

 

[Introverts_Unite!]

Mismatched shoes and sox! ISTJ fathers! Bumping into things! Dissatifaction with Jobs! What to reply to??

I solved the shoe problem by finding one Sears style that I like and just wearing them until the heel comes off. Then I go back and buy another pair - 10 minutes and I'm outa there. The problem now is that they seem to have discontinued this particular style ("Trudy" - sad .. I even know the name). Not that that solves the problem completely ... I still arrive at work with muddy dog paw prints on them. And then there's the dog / cat hair on my clothes.... It's not that I don't like looking good, it's just so exhausting (+expensive, time-consuming, depressing) getting there. Beauty, according to public opinion, at least, sure comes at a creative price.

I don't think the Jobs thing is off topic at all, it's just that it is so huge I didn't mention it. It's my chronic bane, my everpresent thorn in the side. Either I'm overwhelmed or bored to tears or frustrated with the bureaucracy. Capitalistic culture may suck, but at least you know what you're dealing with and there is some degree of a modern creative progress ... Try changing a university system where the power is entrenched vertically and horizontally and there are hidden agendas at every turn! {sigh}

Part of the career problem is my aforementioned wrong choice of career in college that I continued to follow even after I knew it was wrong for me. Now it's really hard to turn the Titanic around.

I look back and was horrified that I actually went to business school and studied Hotel/Restaurant management (very ESxJ/P-like). I used to think it was because I loved to cook, but actually, other than occasional creative endeavors, I detest the daily grind of cooking. And that isn't just from scratch-stuff. I hate the cutting, chopping, washing of putting salads together, even though I enjoy eating them.

ISTJ Fathers .. a whole topic in itself ... I finally started getting along with him when I learned about Type. I remember one time storming off in tears after he obsessively insisted I look at the map and go a particular route to a nearby city (and no, he wasn't even going along). Later on I learned to politely listen in a very agreeable manner, then go my own way.

Whew.... this feels great to know I'm not so alone. Thanks for the vent!

 

[Usehername]

I used to have a lot of trouble with this stuff. As a teenager, I was absorbed in my INxJ world. I wore whatever random articles of clothing females in my family didn't want b/c I didn't go shopping.

I feel like I've conquered it, though. I can "turn on" my Se for driving, I can consciously dress myself well now (but I'm sure it takes far more thought than most people require).

But maybe it's just that I'm in university and have minimal responsibilities, no kids, no one to worry about but myself...
maybe I will backtrack when my life gets more stressful. Because it takes a lot of effort now.

--
Actually, on Tuesday I flooded my bathroom b/c I forgot to turn off the cold water tap (I was washing my face and had hot + cold together.)
Luckily, I noticed before I left home. I was late, but that could've been disastrous. Especially b/c my laptop was on the floor in the carpeted bedroom outside the bathroom.

 

[arcticangel02]

1. Dates, dates, dates and more dates. What day is it again? I have no idea.

Yep, I'm pretty bad at that. Whether it's monday or tuesday or whatever isn't so bad, because I usually have distinctive, different things to do on each day, but I'm hopeless with dates. For example, when I'm working, I often have to write out gift cards for people, which expire a year from whenever they buy them. But honestly, omg, I can do 20 of these within an hour and still have to look at the computer to check what the date is when I'm writing out the 21st one. Hopeless!

2. Was the light green? Or red? I honestly had no idea.

Hah! When I'm driving, I sometimes get almost all the way up to an intersection before my brain registers that there's traffic lights there. They're always green, thankfully (probably red lights would have me notice sooner), but I really wonder how I couldn't even have noticed that I was approaching the lights!

Although a bit off topic, my ISFP mother always tells me that she's utterly hopeless with remembering details like that - what colour that shirt was, or whether someone was wearing earrings or not.

4. I'm usually unaware of what my body is trying to tell me. I don't eat until I have hunger pains knawing at me, despite the time of day. I literally forget to eat.

Yeah, this has happened to me. It usually only happens when I'm very occupied with something else, but I once started work at 3pm, and had completely forgotten to eat anything at all that day. Needless to say, that was not a fun shift. Though I don't think I've done that in a few years, now.

5. Directions. I could get lost finding my way out of a paper box.

Hahaha! I can pretty much guarantee that if I haven't already been somewhere many times (or even if I haven't taken that same route to get to that somewhere), and I don't have a map on hand to consult constantly, I will get lost.

I hate when I'm looking for something, and I KNOW it's right in front of my face, but I just can't see it!

Oh yes. My parents (both S) have a hard time believing that me and my brother (both NFs) cannot see the things in front of our eyes. Seriously. I will look for something for ten minutes, then when I finally give up and ask someone else to help me, they'll point to it (or look under the first bit of paper) and go, 'How could you not see that!?'

Also, I have a horrible memory. I drive my parents nuts with my inability to remember to do normal household chores. I have a grand total of one (1) chore to do each day, and yet probably 5 days of the week I won't do it. Usually because it will quite honestly slip my mind. Even after my father reminding me four or five times to do it, I will usually be occupied with something else and so will 'do it later'. More often than not it never gets done.

Schoolwork suffers from that, too. Once or twice I've forgotten I had an assignment due (or thought it was due the week afterwards), and the night before when someone mentions it, I'm like OMG. Thankfully I can do without sleep and still function. This skill comes in handy several times a semester. ^^

But yeah, because my family is mostly Sensors, I have picked up a few small habits which make life easier for everyone involved. I write lists of things to do (so I don't forget), put all my engagements on a calendar that sits right next to my desk so I see it and am constantly reminded (otherwise I would never leave the house because I wouldn't be able to remember when I was supposed to meet people). So at least I'm usually aware of what's going on, even if I don't manage my time particularly well.

And I am also consistantly tardy. I think I've arrived on time for work maybe a handful of times since I started working there over a year ago. I mean, it's usually only by a few minutes, and I'm always willing to cut the time out of my pay (or stay later), but even so, I'm really lucky I have fairly easygoing bosses. ^^ They tease me, but they don't get angry. Whew!

Social engagements: you can rely on me to be a half-hour to an hour late. (Depending on how far away it is). But it just happens, somehow.

Thankfully, I can usually make most people forgive me my absent-mindedness with a smile and some really sincere apologies. Even my parents, who should really be immune to this by now. Or perhaps they just don't expect me to be reliable in the first place.

I sometimes wonder how I function at all in this Sensor-ish world!

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Details have always been my downfall. Whenever I'm in a situation where I need to spot a small detail I know that I'm screwed. I do remember one situation where I needed to find a pay phone, so I started up the car and went looking for a gas station. After explaining what I was doing, my wife said, "Why did you leave where we were? There was a pay phone right there."

The weird thing is that I am very externally oriented, but I still can't see details. I can be very insightful in some ways and totally clueless in others. I see patterns, but not details, so I often miss things that are right in front of my face.

 

[FemMecha]

I recently dropped out of a program because too many external logistics wore me down. Granted I was already in a compromised state, but the content relaxed me while the externals made me completely sick and demoralized. Being judged on externals is the bane of my existence. I'm glad there are people who excel in those areas of keeping track of details and appearances, but I'm not one I prefer not to patronized by them. Si is more alien to me than Se, so perhaps my biggest conflict is with the former.

 

[quietgirl]

I look back and was horrified that I actually went to business school and studied Hotel/Restaurant management (very ESxJ/P-like). I used to think it was because I loved to cook, but actually, other than occasional creative endeavors, I detest the daily grind of cooking. And that isn't just from scratch-stuff. I hate the cutting, chopping, washing of putting salads together, even though I enjoy eating them.

ISTJ Fathers .. a whole topic in itself ... I finally started getting along with him when I learned about Type. I remember one time storming off in tears after he obsessively insisted I look at the map and go a particular route to a nearby city (and no, he wasn't even going along). Later on I learned to politely listen in a very agreeable manner, then go my own way.

My ISTJ father used to do the same exact thing. He had tons of maps in his car and would give them to me every time I ventured beyond our hometown. He'd also highlight my route. I used to tell him he should work for AAA & he would then get mad that I was joking about my personal safety. When I left home for college at 18, I got a pile of maps of every place I could possibly drive (with the route highlighted of course)

About Cooking...

I LOVE to cook, but I more like making new & fun things up. I also enjoy being able to eat exactly what I want to eat. I've considered saying "forget it!" to my job & going back to school and just getting certified at a culinary school but it's nice to see an INFJ's side of the business.

I also took on management jobs right after college. Did you find the management aspect as draining as I did? What did you dislike about it (and like about it?)

 

[Kyrielle]

Dates. Time of day. Day of the week. (I seriously only ever know what day it is when I have a project going. If I don't, then I start feeling suspended in time.) Even then I'm bad at dates.

Remembering who said what. Terrible at that. It's not that I don't listen...I just can't remember. However, I will remember the jist of the conversation.

Directions. I wish I had a sign over my head that said, "If you ask me for directions, I will only mumble a lot, look confused, and waste your time." There are a lot of tourists where I live, and they tend to ask me for directions to go to places I don't recall ever passing (eventhough I might have passed it everyday for the past year). I'm very bad at giving directions since my navigational system doesn't work on street names and stoplights. It works on landmarks that are so subtle people wouldn't understand me. If I could tell them "Turn left at the square where the trees go like this" or "Go straight until you see a small window with a weird bunch of bottles in it", I would.

Forgetting to eat. Food could be everywhere, and, if I was doing anything interesting, I wouldn't notice it until I felt sick from hunger.

Not caring if the jacket I wear all the time has several stains on it (from paint and ink and the like...not that you would see it...it's black, but the idea bothers some people). This drives my mother absolutely nuts. As a matter of fact, when I came home for the winter, she went crazy over the idea that I would wear a "dressy" jacket (it's not) everyday. God forbid I let my sleeve touch anything "dangerous".

Not caring if the surfaces of things are dusty and otherwise covered in work.

I don't seem to have a problem with mismatched stuff mostly because I have only a few pairs of shoes that are radically different from each other and the clothes I buy, are bought on the assumption I will wear them to death and be able to wear them with everything I own. I get accused by my ESFJ mother of wearing a "uniform" sometimes.

 

[fiona]

Odd. I am INTJ, but driving, because it is logical, isn't a problem. It's the irrational behaviour of other drivers that makes me furious. I'd always assumed that INTJs would generally be good drivers (also because we like to master skills and hate underperforming). Also, many times I have negotiated multiple junctions while deep in thought - sometimes to the point that I have no memory of doing so (though that tends to also occur when I am deeply stressed, as in psychiatrically so). I am also very good at figuring out likely driver behaviour from age, gender and type/age of car. Old men in hats, for instance, will always do whatever is the worst possible manoeuvre as if there is no one else on the road. But I hate it when people drive dangerously, or clearly have no idea of how to indicate on a roundabout, things like that.
It's not rocket science, it's just driving.
But I can't remember birthdays either. Mine was yesterday and I nearly forgot it again. If I can't remember mine...

I am aware of my appearance in a general way, but that's because i'm a) overweight and b) very ugly (b doesn't change if I lose weight, unfortunately). However, probably as a consequence my attention to my appearance is minimal - clean, hair brushed, reasonably colour co-ordinated clothes. But when I was thin I did enjoy trying on clothes - though that may have been the novelty of it.

I have a cluttered house, but I am aware that the 'if only it was tidy then I'd be able to really achieve stuff' is a procrastination ploy, not a type issue. you can achieve in an untidy environment. Just look at Iris Murdoch.

I have nearly lost the car, but I can usually work backwards and figure out where I left it. Logic cuts in when my senses fail me.

 

[fiona]

My ISTJ father used to do the same exact thing. He had tons of maps in his car and would give them to me every time I ventured beyond our hometown. He'd also highlight my route. I used to tell him he should work for AAA & he would then get mad that I was joking about my personal safety. When I left home for college at 18, I got a pile of maps of every place I could possibly drive (with the route highlighted of course)

I take it that you saw his behaviour as controlling, not that he was worried?

 

[Vortex]

And I am also consistantly tardy...
Thankfully, I can usually make most people forgive me my absent-mindedness with a smile and some really sincere apologies. Even my parents, who should really be immune to this by now. Or perhaps they just don't expect me to be reliable in the first place.

I sometimes wonder how I function at all in this Sensor-ish world!

That whole tardiness thing - it's a conspiracy! It doesn't matter when I leave home, how early I get up...I'll always be a few minutes late. Nobody was more surprised than me when I arrived 10 minutes early at work today; the universe is playing games with me, and I'm losing.

To the rest of the issues: I've tried to 'force' myself to see things over the years, but it still takes extreme effort to become aware of trifling matters like laundry, dishes, vacuuming and which day to take the garbage to the curb. People on the street are invisible. Snow, rain and other conditions that would have an impact on other people's travelling time don't apply to me (see aforementioned tardiness conspiracy) and if people move furniture into a spot that used to be free floorspace, I'll bump into it for a while, despite seeing it there. Heh, my life is filled with these tiny ridiculous things- I wonder if I'll ever learn. I don't do the 'two different shoes' thing, but I routinely manage to get through the house (several flights of stairs) and outside before I realise that I completely forgot about shoes altogether.

 

[Sandy]

There was a time that my life was totally out of control...

Thank GOD for Outlook (and my Ipaq and laptop). I have all the reoccuring birthdays and anniversaries loaded up on my Outlook; I love the reminder feature! I have it to remind me two-weeks in advance, and because I am THE procrastinator, I will snooze it until the very last day -- then I run like crazy to get a card for whatever wedding or whatever is going on and hope that it gets to the person in time.

That use to be me... until I found out a new system about 6-years ago, and it works great! In addition to the Outlook program, the tickler system works well for me.

At the first of the year, I buy all of my cards that I need for the year, and then I sign and address them and put them in the correct month (and then day) so I can get all of my cards out in a decent time. I still really rely on my Outlook to remind me, though, because my memory is still horrendous.

I have an area right in the front of the tickler system for all of my stamps and pre-printed address labels and extra envelopes (and miscellaneous stickers).

I have a front drawer on my desk that is FULL of cards of all types (sympathy, encouragement, get well, etc). I find them on sale at different online stores (ie: dayspring.com). I don't have to RUN to the store anymore to buy cards. This systems also really help me, because it's all there in one area.

There was a time that it would be useless for me to even think of sending birthday cards on time because a month would have gone by, and I would have felt guilty to send a belated card. :sad: At least I have this part of my life in control.

It all started with the reminder feature of Outlook (yaay!)

 

[Sandy]

That whole tardiness thing - it's a conspiracy! It doesn't matter when I leave home, how early I get up...I'll always be a few minutes late. Nobody was more surprised than me when I arrived 10 minutes early at work today; the universe is playing games with me, and I'm losing.

To the rest of the issues: I've tried to 'force' myself to see things over the years, but it still takes extreme effort to become aware of trifling matters like laundry, dishes, vacuuming and which day to take the garbage to the curb. People on the street are invisible. Snow, rain and other conditions that would have an impact on other people's travelling time don't apply to me (see aforementioned tardiness conspiracy) and if people move furniture into a spot that used to be free floorspace, I'll bump into it for a while, despite seeing it there. Heh, my life is filled with these tiny ridiculous things- I wonder if I'll ever learn. I don't do the 'two different shoes' thing, but I routinely manage to get through the house (several flights of stairs) and outside before I realise that I completely forgot about shoes altogether.

haha! That's too funny!

Yep, tardiness has always been an issue for me. In the past, I have even tried to trick myself and forward my clocks at least 10-minutes earlier, but then I reason with myself over and over again that I STILL have 10-minutes.

So... the clock goes back to where it is supposed to be. Tricking myself doesn't work. :rolli:

For some reason, things have been better for me time-wise. I actually do get to work on time (yaay!)

 

[Introverts_Unite!]

I also took on management jobs right after college. Did you find the management aspect as draining as I did? What did you dislike about it (and like about it?)

Well ... it was good experience in that it made me confront my own issues in relation to others. In dealing with unionized employees, I came to have a healthy respect for due process and making sure that expectations were communicated before taking my moodiness out on a subordinate. But it was very stressful, and I was glad to move into a more 'white collar' area where I was only responsible for my own work.

The union shop was quite some time ago but I'm still managing a small administrative group. Despite the Life Lessons, I still hate supervising people unless they're the types that don't require supervision. I hate when I have to confront someone about performance issues, and I think I do it quite badly. I am great at mentoring, teaching, training, encouraging, etc. But as soon as I move into a relationship where the accountability for their work is my responsibility, things change. I'm a terrible delegator and if I feel (or vaguely intuit) resistance, I end up doing their work. Crazy. I'll never be a natural at it. The non-relational aspects of management are fine, though, if it's not too sensory. I LOVE planning and setting up new systems, but generally dislike execution of routine matters.

 

[Sandy]

Dreaming of having a victory garden...

Well ... it was good experience in that it made me confront my own issues in relation to others. In dealing with unionized employees, I came to have a healthy respect for due process and making sure that expectations were communicated before taking my moodiness out on a subordinate. But it was very stressful, and I was glad to move into a more 'white collar' area where I was only responsible for my own work.

The union shop was quite some time ago but I'm still managing a small administrative group. Despite the Life Lessons, I still hate supervising people unless they're the types that don't require supervision. I hate when I have to confront someone about performance issues, and I think I do it quite badly. I am great at mentoring, teaching, training, encouraging, etc. But as soon as I move into a relationship where the accountability for their work is my responsibility, things change. I'm a terrible delegator and if I feel (or vaguely intuit) resistance, I end up doing their work. Crazy. I'll never be a natural at it. The non-relational aspects of management are fine, though, if it's not too sensory. I LOVE planning and setting up new systems, but generally dislike execution of routine matters.

Over the years, all the management training I have ever gone through has really helped me understand, develop, and strengthen my weak areas.

Still, my default settings persist. I don't enjoy delegating or confronting anyone, especially performance issues. I don't want the responsibility, and it mentally drains me. Like you, I enjoy supporting, mentoring, and encouraging others. Unfortunately, my job scope has changed over the last 19-years... so at some point, I know this has got to end. I plan to end my career in another year or so (now that I my boys are now adults) and start to carve out what I believe my real job is (being a supportive wife/homemaker). Now, if only I could get my corp to let me retire early... they say that I have 13-years to go, so they won't let me.