I don't buy the Enneagram Wings theory

[highlander]

That is, it seems like there is no need for subtypes if you use MBTI/Jungian Functions to explain variations. It also seems a bit illogical (to me) for one of two adjacent personality types to affect the basic Enneagram type. Why does it need to be adjacent?

If we assume the "enneagram is based on the principle that everyone constructs defense mechanisms to deal with the real and perceived injuries inflicted by life," and the enneagram is the defense mechanism, then the core personality would likely be defined by something else - like their functions. In that situation, there is no need for a subtype.

 

[JocktheMotie]

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/enneagram/8520-new-improved-enneagram-sponge-evan.html

 

[highlander]

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/enneagram/8520-new-improved-enneagram-sponge-evan.html

Great thread!

 

[Chloe]

That it, it seems like there is no need for subtypes if you use MBTI/Jungian Functions to explain variations. It also seems a bit illogical (to me) for one of two adjacent personality types to affect the basic Enneagram type. Why does it need to be adjacent?

If we assume the "enneagram is based on the principle that everyone constructs defense mechanisms to deal with the real and perceived injuries inflicted by life," and the enneagram is the defense mechanism, then the core personality would likely be defined by something else - like their functions. In that situation, there is no need for a subtype.

Finaly someone!!!! I dont buy it either.

For example, 5w4.. how would that person look like?

4 - thrives on emotions to distract attention from real wounds.
5 - avoids emotions by detaching

so how does 5w4 person function? I cant see it.

People are asigning MBTI traits to wings. ex. 5w4 would be INFP who is 5. But if he is 5 he doesnt have, I bet, 4s fixation at all. It contradicts 5's.

All people I talked about in detail about their E-type didnt have a wing after we discussed it for long. :/

 

[Amargith]

I'm unable to determine my wing really, as I recognize myself in both the 4w3 and 4w5 profile, tbh. I'd appreciate any kind of help on this

 

[Arclight]

Finaly someone!!!! I dont buy it either.

For example, 5w4.. how would that person look like?

4 - thrives on emotions to distract attention from real wounds.
5 - avoids emotions by detaching

so how does 5w4 person function? I cant see it.

People are asigning MBTI traits to wings. ex. 5w4 would be INFP who is 5. But if he is 5 he doesnt have, I bet, 4s fixation at all. It contradicts 5's.

All people I talked about in detail about their E-type didnt have a wing after we discussed it for long. :/

I need to introduce you to a few people I know.
Is it paradoxical? You bet.. is it real.. for sure.
Can I do it?.. UH huh..

When does the behavior associated with fear, insecurity and pain ever make sense???

Just watch people behave during a break up for an example of what I am talking about.

 

[Chloe]

I need to introduce you to a few people I know.
Is it paradoxical? You bet.. is it real.. for sure.
Can I do it?.. UH huh..

When does the behavior associated with fear, insecurity and pain ever make sense???

Just watch people behave during a break up for an example of what I am talking about.

did you understand my post? i am not sure.

can you just describe people you are talking about, i am really interested.

 

[highlander]

I need to introduce you to a few people I know.
Is it paradoxical? You bet.. is it real.. for sure.
Can I do it?.. UH huh..

When does the behavior associated with fear, insecurity and pain ever make sense???

Just watch people behave during a break up for an example of what I am talking about.

I actually believe the Enneagram is pretty important but just don't buy into the wings part of it.

 

[Arclight]

did you understand my post? i am not sure.

can you just describe people you are talking about, i am really interested.

Well you can read the INFJ door slam thread for a good start.


I have a friend.. who is so gooey and warm, and yet she is unaware of it until hours later, sometimes days. she has feelings and reacts to them. But only becomes intellectually and self aware of those reactions a later time.

I hope she doesn't mind me sharing this.. but then is no way you have a clue who I am talking about.

She described a situation where when people would phone, her partner was able to tell who was on the phone just by her reaction,tone and enthusiasm,
He was aware of a very obvious change in her emotional state, she herself had no clue this was happening.
She also would not show similar things when he phoned. Thus unaware of her own lack of enthusiasm for her partner, who, in her case had given her reasons to mistrust him.
That is detachment to your feelings.

Does that make sense? It does to me.

 

[Aleksei]

That it, it seems like there is no need for subtypes if you use MBTI/Jungian Functions to explain variations. It also seems a bit illogical (to me) for one of two adjacent personality types to affect the basic Enneagram type. Why does it need to be adjacent?

The Enneagram is based on three dimensions: the two explained in Magic Poriferan's thread (behavior and emotion), and then the triads (that is, the Head, Heart and Instinct triad). The wings are adjacent to each other because either they're in the same triad, or else they're linked by behavior (1/2, 4/5, 7/8). The problem might lie in the fact that there are nine types and not 27, which forces a looser interpretation of them than the three variables would suggest, but they nevertheless make more sense in their original form than MP's altered form. Two, for example, makes no sense without being in the Heart triad. A very egocentric Pursuing Anticipator couldn't possibly belong to the Helper archetype.

 

[Arclight]

I actually believe the Enneagram is pretty important but just don't buy into the wings part of it.

I see.. But type 6 is simply not me without the 5 wing.

Wings are confusing. But everybody has inner conflict and struggle. The types are placed side by side for a reason. This type will present this certain conflict in a human being.This conflict will look like this type when mixed with that type. It's like learned behavior VS your instincts.

If I don't have a wing.. I neither a Type 6 or a Type 5. With a wing I am type 6w5 to a T.. nothing else fits.. and nothing else describes my inner conflict to connect and disconnect. To run yet fight, to know and not to know, to hide and be vulnerable.. All these contradictions and more, are me.

What is it about wings that you don't think is correct? I am curious

 

[Chloe]

Well you can read the INFJ door slam thread for a good start.


I have a friend.. who is so gooey and warm, and yet she is unaware of it until hours later, sometimes days. she has feelings and reacts to them. But only becomes intellectually and self aware of those reactions a later time.

I hope she doesn't mind me sharing this.. but then is no way you have a clue who I am talking about.

She described a situation where when people would phone, her partner was able to tell who was on the phone just by her reaction,tone and enthusiasm,
He was aware of a very obvious change in her emotional state, she herself had no clue this was happening.
She also would not show similar things when he phoned. Thus unaware of her own lack of enthusiasm for her partner, who, in her case had given her reasons to mistrust him.
That is detachment to your feelings.

Does that make sense? It does to me.

so you are saying your friend is INFJ 5w4?
but where is w4 here? i dont see it. i see NF who is warm like all NFs, and 5 who is sometimes detached, and it takes her time to process feelings intelectually because she is 5.

 

[VagrantFarce]

4 - thrives on emotions to distract attention from real wounds.
5 - avoids emotions by detaching

Actually it's more like:

4. I'm defective - others have something I do not. In order to find it, I need to search my emotions and feelings.
5. The world is invasive and confusing - I need to withdraw so I can make better sense of things and feel prepared.

It's not hard to imagine how these compulsions might overlap. The problem is that the wings rely too much on the arbitrary positionings of each type. Why is a 2w1 considered valid, whereas a 2w5 isn't? The symbol itself seems arbitrary enough as it is (and doesn't really help to counteract a lot of the mystical baggage that comes with the enneagram).

 

[Chloe]

Actually it's more like:

4. I'm defective - others have something I do not. In order to find it, I need to search my emotions and feelings.
5. The world is invasive and confusing - I need to withdraw so I can make better sense of things and feel prepared.

thing is that when you fight with E4 he starts to make drama, likes attention, and goes "poor me", its all about me.
when you fight with E5 he withdraws and wants you to leave him alone, doesnt want to share informations.

so how does 5w4 acts when fighting..? cant see that overlaping that easy.

 

[Betty Blue]

I always get an even score (or just about) on 7 and 2. So it seems silly to add a 6 to the 7 or a 3 to the 2.

 

[VagrantFarce]

thing is that when you fight with E4 he starts to make drama, likes attention, and goes "poor me", its all about me.
when you fight with E5 he withdraws and wants you to leave him alone, doesnt want to share informations.

so how does 5w4 acts when fighting... cant see that overlaping that easy.

You need a better imagination then.

"Oh poor me, I'll throw a mild hissy fit and then lock myself away from the world as much as possible while I write bad, self-absorbed poetry about how defective and inhuman I am."

[youtube=XajgoxU-_nc]5w4[/youtube]

 

[Arclight]

so you are saying your friend is INFJ 5w4?
but where is w4 here? i dont see it. i see NF who is warm like all NFs, and 5 who is sometimes detached, and it takes her time to process feelings intelectually because she is 5.

She romanticizes her pain once she has intellectualized it.
You simply need to listen to her describe herself to see the 4 all over her.
Again I find it endearing.. I mean I love her.. but it is what it is.
She is a total contradiction.

 

[highlander]

Actually it's more like:

4. I'm defective - others have something I do not. In order to find it, I need to search my emotions and feelings.
5. The world is invasive and confusing - I need to withdraw so I can make better sense of things and feel prepared.

It's not hard to imagine how these compulsions might overlap. The problem is that the wings rely too much on the arbitrary positionings of each type. Why is a 2w1 considered valid, whereas a 2w5 isn't? The symbol itself seems arbitrary enough as it is (and doesn't really help to counteract a lot of the mystical baggage that comes with the enneagram).

This is exactly my point.

On a personal level, 8 resonates but neither 8w7 or 8w9 seems right. I seem to be in the middle. Now, if you were looking at some of the other numbers as secondary defense mechanisms, it might make more sense.

 

[Chloe]

You need a better imagination then.

"Oh poor me, I'll throw a mild hissy fit and then lock myself away from the world as much as possible while I write bad, self-absorbed poetry about how defective and inhuman I am."]

that's only 4s reaction not 5s.


i think most of it is a STRETCH.. you know, finding some kind of trait that person has and then explaining it as wing... you could find evidence for 2w7 in anyone, in 5, in 3, in anyone..

 

[Arclight]

This is exactly my point.

On a personal level, 8 resonates but neither 8w7 or 8w9 seems right. I seem to be in the middle. Now, if you were looking at some of the other numbers as secondary defense mechanisms, it might make more sense.

All the types mirror each other in some way.. That is why degrees of health are so important in Ennea typing. You can't be 2w5 because 2w3 or 2w1 already covers it. and your level of health will take you towards a different type.

Type 6 goes 8 counter-phobic and 9 in a state of health.

So maybe a type 2 needs to look at their state of health to see if there is a level that starts to look like type 5.. they would still have their wing as 3 or 1 but their health will be taking them somewhere else.

This site is useful in describing the stages of health

you are now dealing with 54 subtypes for one type.. pretty elaborate if you ask me.

Nine Personalities