How do you tell sensors from intuitors?

[Poki]

[MENTION=12103]Poki[/MENTION] what you said makes a lot of sense. But now it's making me doubt my Si dominance. I really like that explanation though.

what makes you think your dom Si

And what about what I said makes you doubt it?

 

[existence]

I meant perception as in the people who like to argue that reality is nothing more then perception. I hate those arguments, its like really...lets go so far off into lala land where nothing is as its perceived and at that point we can argue anything with some of the wall stuff because its all just perception right and nothing is real. I had to try and stop that before it started from someone who read what I wrote. Not necessarily you.

Yeah I hate that stuff too.

Please tell me what exactly about that says it cannot be detected? I don't see that assumption anywhere in that definition.

The assumption is implicit in the statement that the J/P dichotomy only applies when you interact with the outer world - it's pretty clear from that.

 

[Poki]

Yeah I hate that stuff too.




The assumption is implicit in the statement that the J/P dichotomy only applies when you interact with the outer world - it's pretty clear from that.

I don't get the implicit assumption. Even your example doesn't mean anything to me of Ti and Fi. One example doesn't show how a person comes across overall. I honestly don't know any IxxP person who comes across as J generally. While some of the order and structure may come out from time to time. Words such as "feel very", "looks", "may feel", "looks more" all show that the internal J/P does show its head, just not as much. To confirm this further down it uses words like generally, and prefers which are also not absolute words so you cant use specific examples to debunk it. You have to look at the whole picture and find what happens more or prefers. I like to use both because sometimes what actually happens more is environment driven, though they prefer the other.

 

[Poki]

Se - Outward and active focus on the objective world and on gathering factual data and sensory experiences
Si - Inward and reflective focus on subjective sensory experiences and on the storing of factual historical data
Ne - Outward and active focus on the new, the possibilities and meanings/ patterns in the objective world
Ni - Inward and reflective focus on the subjective world of symbols, meanings, insight and patterns that come up from the unconscious

I can tell you as an Se I and very active in grabbing and gathering factual data and sensory experiences. I don't so much reflect on sensory experiences or on the storing of factual historical data.

For me and my Ni the best way I can describe my Ni is like a google search engine...put in some criteria and all these patterns and insights and meanings come up. This is the data I do store, its not the factual historical data I store. I couldn't tell you anything about jung or myers or any time line or factual data. I can tell you the meanings, and patterns, and such.

 

[Smilephantomhive]

what makes you think your dom Si

And what about what I said makes you doubt it?

For dom Si
Have a routine
Like to have a bunch of data before making decisions
I don't immediately "get" things the way Ni doms seem to do
I like to know the details of the stories, and similar things.
I feel as though I'm aware of my body




Not dom Si
I'm not as detailed as your brother, and feel like the art I make is more conceptual.

 

[Poki]

For dom Si
Have a routine
Like to have a bunch of data before making decisions
I don't immediately "get" things the way Ni doms seem to do
I like to know the details of the stories, and similar things.
I feel as though I'm aware of my body




Not dom Si
I'm not as detailed as your brother, and feel like the art I make is more conceptual.

Thats not enough to make you not Si Dom, conceptual art does have more an Ni feel to it. Especially with your list of things that match Si dom, that one example is no where near enough to question.

What do you like about conceptual art? What does it portray to you?

 

[existence]

I don't get the implicit assumption. Even your example doesn't mean anything to me of Ti and Fi. One example doesn't show how a person comes across overall. I honestly don't know any IxxP person who comes across as J generally. While some of the order and structure may come out from time to time. Words such as "feel very", "looks", "may feel", "looks more" all show that the internal J/P does show its head, just not as much. To confirm this further down it uses words like generally, and prefers which are also not absolute words so you cant use specific examples to debunk it. You have to look at the whole picture and find what happens more or prefers. I like to use both because sometimes what actually happens more is environment driven, though they prefer the other.

OK the implicit assumption is that the J/P of Ji/Pi cannot be detected outwardly as they state that the J/P dichotomy only applies when you interact with the outer world. Exactly what is unclear to you in this statement I've just given you?

"feel very", "looks", "may feel", "looks more" --> are you associating that stuff with Ji or with Pi?

 

[existence]

Se - Outward and active focus on the objective world and on gathering factual data and sensory experiences
Si - Inward and reflective focus on subjective sensory experiences and on the storing of factual historical data

Would this be a good example of that, and which one, Si or Se, in *your* opinion:

"We order our food, and I get a turkey burger with hella greens on it, and an order of sweet potato fries drenched in bacon. The food looks delicious, and in my mind, I am analyzing the taste, texture, and quality of the food. I immediately decide that I liked it, and it's all in my stomach. But then, after we leave the restaurant, I notice that I have a stomach-ache, and I already know I enjoyed the food, but I'm still over here analyzing the experience and trying to figure out what caused the stomach ache."

 

[Cellmold]

Their mastery of life.

 

[Poki]

OK the implicit assumption is that the J/P of Ji/Pi cannot be detected outwardly as they state that the J/P dichotomy only applies when you interact with the outer world. Exactly what is unclear to you in this statement I've just given you?

"feel very", "looks", "may feel", "looks more" --> are you associating that stuff with Ji or with Pi?

apply and detects are not the same word. That means you have to look at only the outer world when applying J vs P or you may really screw things up as even though you detect P in the inner world, it is not used to apply the J/P dichotomy. It doesn't mean it cant be detected, it means you must use what you detect in thew outer world to determine and apply J vs P. you are reading into what is not said, inferring things that should not be inferred.

"feel very", "looks", "may feel", "looks more" - really not associating it to any...feel is more Fi, looks is more Se, I am more referring to the lack of black and white lines. Its saying basically whatever you use to "detect" whether it be P or J it will not match J 100% or P 100%. You will pick up both through your detection mechanism whatever it may be, could be either your Je, Ji, Pe, Pi.

This just like all things that are perceptive have issues because people who internalize may see themselves as P compared to crazy hard core J types, but in the grand scheme of things when you remove the base reference of others, over 50% is a good indicator of whther you are J or P. We can also look outward at a large group or sample to determine about where 50% is. Either way you need a large sample size to determine >50% and J vs P.

 

[existence]

apply and detects are not the same word. That means you have to look at only the outer world when applying J vs P or you may really screw things up as even though you detect P in the inner world, it is not used to apply the J/P dichotomy. It doesn't mean it cant be detected, it means you must use what you detect in thew outer world to determine and apply J vs P. you are reading into what is not said, inferring things that should not be inferred.

No, they are not the same word but that does not address the problem I'm bringing up; let me rephrase, the implicit assumption is that the J/P of Ji/Pi cannot interact with the outer world by any means whatsoever. Do you understand what I'm saying now?

(As for the word usage. Obviously, if it cannot be detected, it also means there is no interaction to be detected.)

I will go further: when you see someone Judging, you cannot tell if this is the Ji or the Je function just from the fact that you've seen them doing this.

"feel very", "looks", "may feel", "looks more" - really not associating it to any...feel is more Fi, looks is more Se, I am more referring to the lack of black and white lines. Its saying basically whatever you use to "detect" whether it be P or J it will not match J 100% or P 100%. You will pick up both through your detection mechanism whatever it may be, could be either your Je, Ji, Pe, Pi.

Sure.


Please tell me what you think of the text in post #48. Se, Si?

 

[Poki]

No, they are not the same word but that does not address the problem I'm bringing up; let me rephrase, the implicit assumption is that the J/P of Ji/Pi cannot interact with the outer world by any means whatsoever. Do you understand what I'm saying now?

(As for the word usage. Obviously, if it cannot be detected, it also means there is no interaction to be detected.)

I will go further: when you see someone Judging, you cannot tell if this is the Ji or the Je function just from the fact that you've seen them doing this.




Sure.


Please tell me what you think of the text in post #48. Se, Si?

I understand exactly what you are saying, I don't get that implicit assumption from reading that. Fi does interact with the outer world through an extroverted function. Fi very frequently reacts to the outer world through Te. Ti through Fe, though I believe we can express through any of our extraverted functions. My Ti frequently expresses itself judgement outwardly by pulling in more data in an Se manner. In that manner you can get an idea of what Ti judgement is, but it does not mean we made a decision yet. It means we are analyzing possible paths.

Beggining seems Si, the end is indeterminate as you don't know through what form or method analysis is happening. That spans more then just Se or Si or a simple function.

 

[Ribonuke]

Sometimes it can be difficult to tell, but I basically tell from whether or not people are "here" or not.

Take them hiking somewhere; are they thinking about the moment and reacting to things around them (including their own needs/internalized data, which is often the case in Si-users), or are they more thinking about random things, yakking on and on without regard to interacting directly with their physical surroundings?

If the former, than you have an S; if the latter, you have an N on your hands.

 

[existence]

I understand exactly what you are saying, I don't get that implicit assumption from reading that. Fi does interact with the outer world through an extroverted function. Fi very frequently reacts to the outer world through Te. Ti through Fe, though I believe we can express through any of our extraverted functions. My Ti frequently expresses itself judgement outwardly by pulling in more data in an Se manner. In that manner you can get an idea of what Ti judgement is, but it does not mean we made a decision yet. It means we are analyzing possible paths.

That's my thinking too, however MBTI states that when Pi/Ji interacts via another function it doesn't count as J/P... this is where I disagree.

Beggining seems Si, the end is indeterminate as you don't know through what form or method analysis is happening. That spans more then just Se or Si or a simple function.

Yes it may involve more than Se/Si but I was asking you if you think it's Se or Si in terms of the Sensing.

Anyhow. Then you are saying you relate MBTI Si with socionics Si. Right?

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

If you throw them in a river and they float, they're an intuitor and must be burned at the stake.

 

[Smilephantomhive]

What do you like about conceptual art? What does it portray to you?

That's a good question. I think it's because it makes people think about things they've never thought of before.

 

[Poki]

That's my thinking too, however MBTI states that when Pi/Ji interacts via another function it doesn't count as J/P... this is where I disagree.




Yes it may involve more than Se/Si but I was asking you if you think it's Se or Si in terms of the Sensing.

Anyhow. Then you are saying you relate MBTI Si with socionics Si. Right?

I dont know. It's been along time since I really looked into socionics and I never went very deep or remembered most of it. My extent was to figure out my type and it wasn't that invoved. I have looked into type relations, I bit into the ego, super ego, etc, a bit into functions and such. But I havnt spent much time learning so my application would not be good at all. We are talking over 3 years ago and I havnt touched it since.

 

[Poki]

Sometimes it can be difficult to tell, but I basically tell from whether or not people are "here" or not.

Take them hiking somewhere; are they thinking about the moment and reacting to things around them (including their own needs/internalized data, which is often the case in Si-users), or are they more thinking about random things, yakking on and on without regard to interacting directly with their physical surroundings?

If the former, than you have an S; if the latter, you have an N on your hands.

I would go so far to say that generally speaking the one who pulls it all in is more Si, while the one interacting with it all is more Se.

 

[Yama]

Sometimes it can be difficult to tell, but I basically tell from whether or not people are "here" or not.

Take them hiking somewhere; are they thinking about the moment and reacting to things around them (including their own needs/internalized data, which is often the case in Si-users), or are they more thinking about random things, yakking on and on without regard to interacting directly with their physical surroundings?

If the former, than you have an S; if the latter, you have an N on your hands.

Hm really? This is usually the kind of example that I agree with, but I'm certain I'm an S and yet if I was wandering in a forest I'd just be thinking of random stuff. Actually that's what I do when I wander anywhere. Like if I'm just walking to class I put myself on autopilot and daydream or think about current details of my life or something, and probably appear rather aloof.

Maybe that has more to do with leading with an introverted or extroverted function?

 

[IZthe411]

There's no easy way to discern it. You have to listen to what a person is saying, and even better, if you can get them to explain why. You need that understanding to get to what's going on in their head. While you could figure this out in one conversation, most times it takes repeated interactions.

I prefer to interact with the same person in a variety of settings. Especially if you are at work or at school, the person may have a persona they wear to get through the day. Catch them on a weekend in a different setting, and see if they are that same person. Look for what's consistent.