[ISFP] Help with my ISFP son and school!

[Lambchop]

My 14 year ISFP (Wyatt) starts high school this year. I REALLY need the help of SP's on helping motivate him in school, help him CARE about school and proper "consequences" when he isn't holding up his responsibilities!

He sees no need for school. Last year, 8th grade was pure hell. He has his own band formed and he is great with music. However, he's not interested in ANY programs at school with regard to music. Thankfully, we've been able to get him some electives like Art and Digital Photography (he's won awards for art and is a great photographer) to mix in with the rest of the classes or I think it would be all out war. He says he is planning to drop out when he's 16because he's going to make it big in music. We have of course talked until we're blue in the face on having a back-up plan until he "makes it big" (because if you don't agree exactly with him on him making it in music...he accuses you of not supporting him.) He is a bright kid and a great kid. I know that ISFPs don't love school and crave freedom. We've told him that he can hang with his band and whatever, as long as he keeps his grades up. The last semester of school last year, he pretty much spent at home because he was failing his classes. I had meetings with the teachers and principal (who were wonderful and very supportive) and we did as much as we could. I am so worried about him this year! He was really terrible at getting up in the morning last year too...at one point, I was just about ready to dump a bowl of icewater on his head (I literally had it suspended over his head) before he would get up. The only thing different this year is that he has a "girlfriend" who is in AP classes. She is a good influence on him and wants him there every day on time, so she can see him. But, I don't know how long that will last.

I don't know how to make him care. We would be more than happy to help him get into an Art School after high school or pursue photography. You can't get even get a job at McDonald's these days without graduating! He is so stubborn and just won't listen. I guess I thought I would ask other SP's for advice on how to help him and what to do. What motivates you? Is school/education something that is valuable to you? How do we help you value education?

As an ISFJ, I was always a model student. I was internally motivated and got excellent grades. Nobody ever had to remind me to do ANYTHING. Even now as I'm finishing college and juggling work and school and kids...teachers love me and my GPA is 3.5. I WANT to relate to him, but have a really hard time. I end up just wanting to bash my head against the wall!

Thanks for any and all advice!

 

[Quinlan]

How do we help you value education?

Change the whole system?

He obviously has passion for music and photography and passion is infinitely more valuable than grades when it comes to forging a career.

I don't know what to say, school sucks.

 

[poppy]

My ISFP friend hated school for the most part, but he liked learning. I think he enjoyed getting to know his professors and he was always borrowing books from them so he could study up on subjects that he found interesting. For him it was definitely about the material, not grades, so maybe an increased emphasis on learning things because they are useful or would allow him to do fun things (like learning a language=better equipped to travel) would help, as opposed to saying he might need a back up plan, because as far as I can tell ISFPs aren't exactly "planners". Encouraging him to study with friends or his girlfriend might also be helpful.

I dunno, can I get a yay or nay from SPs on any of that?

 

[cafe]

I told my daughter (INFP, I think) if she does well on the PSAT I would let her get her GED as soon as possible and start community college (they have a graphic arts program) and she seems pretty happy with that idea. Would something like that motivate him at all?

 

[wolfy]

My ISFP friend hated school for the most part, but he liked learning. I think he enjoyed getting to know his professors and he was always borrowing books from them so he could study up on subjects that he found interesting. For him it was definitely about the material, not grades, so maybe an increased emphasis on learning things because they are useful or would allow him to do fun things (like learning a language=better equipped to travel) would help, as opposed to saying he might need a back up plan, because as far as I can tell ISFPs aren't exactly "planners". Encouraging him to study with friends or his girlfriend might also be helpful.

I dunno, can I get a yay or nay from SPs on any of that?

Yeah, reframing the learning material in terms of it's pragmatic use was really useful to me. Even seemingly useless topics can be packaged as stretching the brains muscles. Or developing a tolerance to boredom and pain!

 

[Quinlan]

My ISFP friend hated school for the most part, but he liked learning. I think he enjoyed getting to know his professors and he was always borrowing books from them so he could study up on subjects that he found interesting. For him it was definitely about the material, not grades, so maybe an increased emphasis on learning things because they are useful or would allow him to do fun things (like learning a language=better equipped to travel) would help, as opposed to saying he might need a back up plan, because as far as I can tell ISFPs aren't exactly "planners". Encouraging him to study with friends or his girlfriend might also be helpful.

I dunno, can I get a yay or nay from SPs on any of that?

All sounds pretty good to me, good grades for their own sake never motivated me at all and you're right, having one plan is a pretty good effort let alone a back up one!

I suppose you would need to spell out the clear links between staying in school/getting good grades and the positive tangible (and immediate if possible) outcomes that will come from doing that (I would like to know also! ).

 

[TickTock]

Though not an ISFP I was like that in school, very bright but felt no affinity with it whatsoever. It was a kind of constant flip flop, I started college 4 times, eventually dragging myself through after trying lots of subjects. Eventually I went in to a degree and repeated the first year. Then I dropped out and it was the best decision I ever made, my only regret is that I wasted years in school. Some people thought I had no desire to better myself. It is FAR from the truth. I love learning I just want to do it on my own terms with things I enjoy. I am finally gettin back into what I love, it just took me years to learn that lesson. Doing what you love is by far more valuable than grades and much more likely to lead in I something. Especially if you are a creative person. Schools kill creativity- even art school can. I had. Conversation about this with a like minded ISFP and he said some people are just not school bodies. Which was a good way to put it.

I feel I was lucky with my parents because they have never expected anything of me or put pressure on me.

It sounds like your son knows what he wants, which means his a lot further along than most people.

 

[TickTock]

Ps Im not illiterate... Just typing on my iPhone often produces mistakes...

 

[Quinlan]

It sounds like your son knows what he wants, which means his a lot further along than most people.

+1000

 

[Jeffster]

I don't know how to make him care.

You can't MAKE anyone care about anything. And if music is what he wants to do now, then he is not going to agree with you on the importance of school because any benefit that you tell him to staying in school is seen as a far-off thing whereas music is something he can enjoy now.

My son is 10, and I believe ESTP type, and we have had quite a few battles on him doing his homework, tonight was the first one for this school year, a whole one week in. Thing is, when I talk about the things he will have the opportunity to do way in the future because of school, it's just wasting my breath, because to him that is a far-away thing, no relevance to his life now. I have to simply make it a direct action-to-consequence thing in the now, that is, he doesn't play video games or talk on the phone or watch tv shows or anything like that until he finishes his homework. He makes loud noises at me, calls me mean, but all I can do is stick to my guns about it.

So anyway, I guess what I'm saying is, if your goal is to "make him care" about school, then you are trying to walk up a waterfall. It ain't gonna happen. I didn't care about school when I was that age either. I'm not even really sure what motivated me to keep going. I guess it was probably because my mom said at some point she would buy a car I could drive, that might have been one of the reasons anyway, I don't entirely remember.

But I dropped out of college after a very short time because at that point, nothing motivated me to continue with school and I had other stuff I would rather be doing.

I'm sitting here thinking I haven't helped you at all, but maybe just to help you stress out less about it because trying to make somebody care is a waste of time, so you are only driving yourself crazy.

It's hard for me to pretend I care if my son does his homework. Because really I want to tell him: Screw school, just play video games and eat candy and stay up as late as you want. But I don't do that, because for several reasons, I think things would suck worse for both of us if I did. So I try to "do the right thing" and stay on him about doing his work, even though really most of the time I'm on his side and think the school system and the way they try to teach to tests and and cram useless knowledge is a bunch of crap.

 

[stellar renegade]

My ISFP friend hated school for the most part, but he liked learning. I think he enjoyed getting to know his professors and he was always borrowing books from them so he could study up on subjects that he found interesting. For him it was definitely about the material, not grades, so maybe an increased emphasis on learning things because they are useful or would allow him to do fun things (like learning a language=better equipped to travel) would help, as opposed to saying he might need a back up plan, because as far as I can tell ISFPs aren't exactly "planners". Encouraging him to study with friends or his girlfriend might also be helpful.

I dunno, can I get a yay or nay from SPs on any of that?

yes!

I actually liked learning about history, not the dates and so forth and not in a dry way but in terms of stories of cultural conflict. The more chaos and drama, the better. I don't know if that'd be true of all SPs, I've had some leanings towards N though. I liked doing artistic projects for school, any activity that deviated from the norm, really. Hmmm.

I agree with Quinlan, school sucks and the system needs to be changed to promote different learning styles. It was hell for me. I kept wondering what it would be like to just learn a trade of my choosing like in olden days.

Sometimes my teachers would cut me slack, though, grading me on what I did do (if I slept through a test) or giving more points for effort. Sometimes extra credit assignments can be fun, tell your son that if there are extra credit assignments that he likes he should try those to bump up his grade a little. I remember a teacher commenting on how it was only the kids who made good grades who tended to do those. That was the same teacher who gave an extra credit assignment involving pointing out the literary devices in a song of our choosing.

 

[Unique]

SJ stress out!!

Seriously though you can't control your kids, you can only guide them.

From what I can tell you see his actions as risky because he doesn't have a back up plan, this is however is how SPs operate

Okay so you ask... what happens if the risk doesn't pay off?

You will find that SPs have most most unorthodox ways of recovering in these situations, at his age he may not know yet but he will work it out

SJs try hard to prevent the worst scenario from happening and often play it too safe

SPs don't try and prevent this because playing it safe doesn't lead to the larger more immediate rewards

Unfortunately as a feeler he may not see things logically often enough and simply follow passions I can picture too many emotional outbursts and no grounds being made between you and him, out of curiosity what type is his father?

 

[wolfy]

It's great that he knows what he wants to do. It's also great that he is showing you his dislike for school. It'd be much worse if he just shut down, closed the hatches and went about his day.

I agree with Jeffster, just point out direct consequences. Not long term consequences.

 

[stellar renegade]

SJ stress out!!

Seriously though you can't control your kids, you can only guide them.

From what I can tell you see his actions as risky because he doesn't have a back up plan, this is however is how SPs operate

Okay so you ask... what happens if the risk doesn't pay off?

You will find that SPs have most most unorthodox ways of recovering in these situations, at his age he may not know yet but he will work it out

SJs try hard to prevent the worst scenario from happening and often play it too safe

SPs don't try and prevent this because playing it safe doesn't lead to the larger more immediate rewards

Unfortunately as a feeler he may not see things logically often enough and simply follow passions I can picture too many emotional outbursts and no grounds being made between you and him, out of curiosity what type is his father?

+1

Exactly. Although some SPs crash and burn due to that methodology, the more intelligent and less selfish ones seem to make it just fine. SJs have too many scruples to doing things that way, and that's fine, they can do things the ordinary way. We SPs, however, have to get outside of that box.

Too suffocating in there.

 

[Lambchop]

SJ stress out!!

Seriously though you can't control your kids, you can only guide them.

From what I can tell you see his actions as risky because he doesn't have a back up plan, this is however is how SPs operate

Okay so you ask... what happens if the risk doesn't pay off?

You will find that SPs have most most unorthodox ways of recovering in these situations, at his age he may not know yet but he will work it out

SJs try hard to prevent the worst scenario from happening and often play it too safe

SPs don't try and prevent this because playing it safe doesn't lead to the larger more immediate rewards

Unfortunately as a feeler he may not see things logically often enough and simply follow passions I can picture too many emotional outbursts and no grounds being made between you and him, out of curiosity what type is his father?

Wow, I'm excited to get so much feedback so quickly. It's funny, I thought for sure I would be told that I wasn't being as strict as I should be with him. My older son (ENFJ) accuses me all the time of being harder on him when he was younger than I am on my younger one. I have learned to chill a little (that made me laugh!)..and older one was my poor guinea pig. My older son quit school at 17 to get his GED (because of drug use issues and treatment), but is now in college and doing well. But he values education like I do. And behavior wise, he was very different than Wyatt. Other than school, I don't really have a lot of behavior issues with Wyatt. He is stubborn, but really easy going for the most part.

Thank God for MBTI, because that has helped me understand that it's his personality type, which has helped me relax the enormous pressure I put on myself to be a "good parent." I have stopped trying to argue with him and just tend to be more in the present by saying "You can't go practice with your band until your homework is done." I can't recall the name of the other parent who posted about wanting to let their son play video games, but knowing he had to make him do his work. Lots of great advice and posts here...I love it...thank you so much! Summer is SO much easier for me as a parent. I dread the return to school, like most parents look forward to it. As long as Wyatt is doing what he wants to be doing...he and I get along great. We have the same sense of humor, we are both sensitive and I'm the one person he trusts completely to communicate his feelings to.

According to the only test his dad ever took, he is also an ISFJ. However, we are divorced and his dad lives halfway across the country. They have been having ongoing issues, so he hasn't been to see his dad in over a year and I have to force him to go visit (which I've pretty much just stopped doing.) His dad has never helped out in the school area or any other area much at all. He used to pressure Wyatt when he he was younger, to play football and sports...because he regretted not doing that in high school himself. Wyatt tried it one year and he HATED it. Poor kid. I made him finish it because he made a commitment to his team members, but I never made him play any other sports again (although his dad still tries to talk to him about it.) I support his music and art (we have gone together to buy art supplies and done art together) and praise his photography...which is professional grade. My current husband is an INFP. He relates a lot better than I do some of the time to Wyatt and tends to see school as less useful than I do, but gets frustrated with me when Wyatt doesn't try.

So I guess I should be glad he has a plan...I'm glad that was pointed out. I know sometimes my own personality type gets in the way and that's why I'm here! I will point out the things he can learn, like has been suggested as well. Great suggestions!

 

[stellar renegade]

Wow, I'm excited to get so much feedback so quickly.

Well that's cuz this has actually always been a pretty big issue with us SPs.

It's funny, I thought for sure I would be told that I wasn't being as strict as I should be with him.

By SPs? haha!

How well do you know us?

It sounds like you're on a good track, being a little more understanding will actually go a long way to help him actually be interested in trying.

I mean, we're not NFs, but we do like our need for freedom to be recognized.

With as stringent as school is, every SP needs a little slack. It will help us apply ourselves so much better.

Hopefully they let him listen to music at school.

 

[stellar renegade]

More practical help on SPs and school: Keirsey Temperament Website - Personality and Your Career

That site is actually geared toward college students as far as school goes, but I'm sure you'll find plenty that applies.

 

[Quinlan]

It'd be much worse if he just shut down, closed the hatches and went about his day.

Yeah that's a big warning sign, speaking from experience shutting down like that is often what it takes to bring out that SJ-like diligence in school but it's not healthy overall, SPs are supposed to be free spirits, don't try to break them.

 

[ilovetrannies]

Exactly. I suffered, greatly all through school but if you tell him that if he can just make passing grades then school will be over before you know it. And being an adult with freedom is so worth the wait.

 

[stellar renegade]

Exactly. I suffered, greatly all through school but if you tell him that if he can just make passing grades then school will be over before you know it. And being an adult with freedom is so worth the wait.

I 100% agree with this. I was gonna say just tell him he can try to make passing grades but didn't know how well that thought would be accepted.

And yes, the freedom of being an adult is definitely worth it for an SP. Other types comment on how it's not so liberating, but an SP is able to take advantage of situations enough to be as free as they want to. Awesome.