[ESTJ] Help with my ESTJ father-in-law

[Griffi97]

My INFP husband and I have been married 4 1/2 years. His dad is ESTJ and his mom is ISFJ. His mother is generally very sweet, non-confrontational, and easy to get along with. His dad, not so much. :steam: His dad was a military fighter pilot, later a commercial airline pilot, and is now retired.

The parents spend about 2 or 3 nights a month as guests in our home, and we have gone on vacation together more than once. Family is very important to my husband so my getting along with his parents is quite important to him. The problem is, his father makes regular rude remarks and this is really starting to get to me. My usual outward reaction is to remain quiet, back down, make nice, etc. But I don't know how much longer I can do this. I have a mental basket of every rude remark he has ever made and the basket is getting pretty full. Yes, I'll admit that as an INFJ I am the type "most likely to be genuinely outraged over the most trivial things" so I'll give a couple examples.

Yesterday, I got home from work just after 8 pm. The parents were here. My husband politely asked me what my schedule was for August. I said, "I'm not sure. Why do you ask?" My father-in-law butted in with "You don't need to know everything." I tried to laugh it off, thinking maybe he was kidding (yeah, right), and said "Yes, I do." He replied, "No you don't, really." My husband and his mother were quiet. I then said, "Well if you want to know my schedule I guess you can look at my calendar then." After thinking about it overnight, I wish I had said "Well you can count me out of whatever it is that you're planning." Problem is I never think of those snappy comebacks in time. And truthfully, my desire to make nice would probably not let me say such a thing.

Another example, and this one really burns me up. We were on vacation in Costa Rica with mom and dad. We were taking turns each day with paying for food. BTW, mom and dad are very well off financially. It was their day to pay, and we were having dinner at a very nice restaurant. I ordered the special, which was described as "crawfish." When it came it was more like 6 small lobsters. I had not asked how much it would be but it never occurred to me that crawfish would be a super pricy item. When I saw what they were bringing I was quite shocked, saying, "Uh oh, I'll bet this is going to be expensive, yikes!" As usual, I ate about half my meal and my husband and his father ate the rest of it. After dinner his mother and I were engaging in some pleasant, light conversation when his father said, "You know, if you want to run with the big dogs, get your check book out." This out of nowhere. And while they order alcohol with every meal (my husband and I don't.) I had no response to this at the time but it grated on me for the rest of the night.

What's weird to me is that my husband always lets stuff like this slide. He does not talk to people like that. He is a nice guy almost to a fault, something I have told him many times. Yet when his father makes these kind of rude remarks, he just ignores it or goes along with it. When I told him the day after his father made the "get your check book out" remark that I thought it was very rude, he said "Oh honey, he was just kidding." Uh no, I don't think so. The man teases people he likes, and he has never teased me about anything.

I get the feeling that dad doesn't think women should have any opinions or input into anything important. He bullies his wife, IMO. And he seems to get angry when I speak up about anything. This is why I married my husband instead of someone like his dad. We have an equal partnership that works well for both of us.

I know there is an awful lot of collective wisdom out there. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[arcticangel02]

ESTJs can be difficult to deal with, but to be honest, there's not a lot you can really do to change the situation - ESTJs are not a type to admit they are wrong and apologise. I don't think standing up to him/making snappy comebacks would really do any good.

So, all I can say is try and do as your husband does: water off a duck's back. When something he says infuriates you, take a moment to collect yourself and then do your best to let it go. You don't have to ever like or even respect the man, but just deal with him well enough to avoid any major conflict...

I know that's hardly any advice at all, but maybe it's something to start with?

 

[Griffi97]

ESTJs can be difficult to deal with, but to be honest, there's not a lot you can really do to change the situation - ESTJs are not a type to admit they are wrong and apologise. I don't think standing up to him/making snappy comebacks would really do any good.

So, all I can say is try and do as your husband does: water off a duck's back. When something he says infuriates you, take a moment to collect yourself and then do your best to let it go. You don't have to ever like or even respect the man, but just deal with him well enough to avoid any major conflict...

I know that's hardly any advice at all, but maybe it's something to start with?

Yes, that's more or less what I've been doing. It's the letting it go part that is hard, especially as these things keep piling up. I know you're right about the snappy comebacks not doing any good; it's just that they would be so satisfying... My ENFJ sister has told me she would have kicked his ass a long time ago. Maybe I can get her to do it for me.

 

[INTJMom]

... Problem is I never think of those snappy comebacks in time. ...

I have that problem, too, but you're right, people who do say what they're immediately thinking frequently regret it, so I guess we're better off.

So did you guys have to pay for the crayfish or not? It sounds like you didn't. If you didn't, then it was just a warning from Mr. ESTJ. Don't let it happen again, or else he will make you pay. And you're right, that's really unfair to have to buy them alcohol when you don't drink. Alcohol is expensive! Maybe you should stop taking turns, and either split 50-50 or each pay for your own.

I can tolerate ESTJ men, but I'm sure it's because I'm a T myself. They do come on really strong, are highly opinionated and difficult to get along with - at least the ones I know, but I mean that in the nicest way - just stating facts. I'm rather similar to that myself.

I think you may have to bite the bullet and do what your husband does. But if I may, let me suggest to you that you do everything in your power to forgive and forget. If you continue storing up bitterness, resentment and anger, it will only make it worse for you and your husband, not for anyone else.

And don't hate me, but I think your husband may have been right, ESTJ Dad was probably teasing you (about the checkbook) but you can't see it because you're angry. Well, he was teasing and serious, as most jokes usually are.

I have an ESTJ friend who is sort of sassy with me so I sass him right back.


Oh, Economica! Where are you?!

 

[Griffi97]

So did you guys have to pay for the crayfish or not? It sounds like you didn't. If you didn't, then it was just a warning from Mr. ESTJ. Don't let it happen again, or else he will make you pay. And you're right, that's really unfair to have to buy them alcohol when you don't drink. Alcohol is expensive! Maybe you should stop taking turns, and either split 50-50 or each pay for your own.

No, they paid for dinner that night. And my husband and I sometimes order alcohol, just not with every meal.

I can tolerate ESTJ men, but I'm sure it's because I'm a T myself. They do come on really strong, are highly opinionated and difficult to get along with - at least the ones I know, but I mean that in the nicest way - just stating facts. I'm rather similar to that myself.

I too have some T tendencies, but I do try to be tactful and polite as much as possible. People who seem oblivious to the effect that their words may have on others frustrate me a bit.

And don't hate me, but I think your husband may have been right, ESTJ Dad was probably teasing you (about the checkbook) but you can't see it because you're angry. Well, he was teasing and serious, as most jokes usually are.

Yes, you are probably right, he was somewhat teasing and somewhat serious. But good-natured teasing it was not.

I have an ESTJ friend who is sort of sassy with me so I sass him right back.

If we were friends I probably would! That's the thing about in-laws: if they were your own mom/dad/sister, you'd say what you had on your mind and be done with it. But with in-laws, they're a step away from immediate family so you have to be more careful.

 

[INTJMom]

...
If we were friends I probably would! That's the thing about in-laws: if they were your own mom/dad/sister, you'd say what you had on your mind and be done with it. But with in-laws, they're a step away from immediate family so you have to be more careful.

I understand. I would do the same. You're in an un-enviable situation.

 

[runvardh]

Now I'm really glad I don't try bringing family together too much. I know I can't choose my family, but I can choose when and how often I deal with them. Thankfully the worst SJ in my family is trumped by my being her eldest brother's first born son; and my dad and I are a lot alike.

 

[Economica]

Oh, Economica! Where are you?!

:hi:

As I see it, a problem with one's in-laws is actually a problem with one's SO:

What's weird to me is that my husband always lets stuff like this slide.

Many people condone behavior from their parents that they would ordinarily consider disrespectful or even abusive; for whatever reason (such as dependence or fear of confrontation), they do not hold their parents to the same standards to which they hold the other people in their life. This contrast between their standards and the treatment they accept from their parents gives them cognitive dissonance and so they rationalize their parents' actions ("he's only joking", "she means well"). Irrespective of whether the parents' misbehavior directly affects only their child, only the child's SO, or both, this cowardly rationalization on the part of their SO is the core of the problem for a son- or daughter-in-law who is less inclined to turn a blind eye.

My advice is to gently broach the subject with your husband and see if you can get him to acknowledge that his father is rude to you. Maybe he just needs to put himself in your shoes. Once you see eye to eye on this, then the two of you together can work out the best way to discipline your father-in-law and present a united front as you do it.

If, however, your husband is dismissive, then you need to consider how important this is to you, because then he probably needs therapy in order to become able to deal with his father, and you will have to motivate him to get it. ("I know you don't think this is a problem, but I do and I'm not letting it go. Let's talk to a therapist in order to get some outside perspective.") Ask yourself how not dealing with this will affect your relationship happiness. If you feel/foresee that your respect and affection for your husband will be taxed every time you see his parents, then push for therapy; otherwise, suck it up or try to deal with your FIL on your own without the support of your husband.

 

[Griffi97]

Big sigh.... Thank you Economica, for your sensible and sound advice.

You are right; my husband does not know how to stand up to his father. There have been times when my husband was afraid to offer proper veterinary medical advice (my husband is a vet too) to his father because "My dad doesn't want to do that." My husband wouldn't be afraid to give medical advice to any other client but magically, when it's his father, the ability to give objective advice seems to fly out the window. This has frustrated and confused me in the past. Thanks for helping me put this together with the other, more personal stuff that's been happening.

You've given me something to think about.

 

[Economica]

Big sigh.... Thank you Economica, for your sensible and sound advice.

(...)

You've given me something to think about.

You're welcome and I'm glad.

 

[INTJMom]

Big sigh.... Thank you Economica, for your sensible and sound advice.

You are right; my husband does not know how to stand up to his father. There have been times when my husband was afraid to offer proper veterinary medical advice (my husband is a vet too) to his father because "My dad doesn't want to do that." My husband wouldn't be afraid to give medical advice to any other client but magically, when it's his father, the ability to give objective advice seems to fly out the window. This has frustrated and confused me in the past. Thanks for helping me put this together with the other, more personal stuff that's been happening.

You've given me something to think about.

Since hubby is an INFP, I suspect this is a lifelong habit that he will have to learn to change. SO DIFFICULT. Be patient with your husband. The INFP desire to please can be quite a difficulty in this situation.
I wish you both good success.

 

[heart]

Since hubby is an INFP, I suspect this is a lifelong habit that he will have to learn to change. SO DIFFICULT. Be patient with your husband. The INFP desire to please can be quite a difficulty in this situation.
I wish you both good success.

My INFJ husband rarely stands up to his family either. He would rather put a rosy glow on the the things they do and deny that they hurt him. I got fed up and I have no problem telling them when they've stepped over the line and when to shut up now. The problem is it rarely fazes them, they just plow ahead with their agenda. Avoidance seems to be the best fix in my situation.

 

[INTJMom]

My INFJ husband rarely stands up to his family either. He would rather put a rosy glow on the the things they do and deny that they hurt him. I got fed up and I have no problem telling them when they've stepped over the line and when to shut up now. The problem is it rarely fazes them, they just plow ahead with their agenda. Avoidance seems to be the best fix in my situation.

It has been a long, hard road for me, and I'm not even an F!
My family is very demanding, was quite dysfunctional when I was a child, and they still think they can control me!
I lived 500 miles away for 20 years, and that gave me the space I needed to develop my own identity apart from them.
I don't just bow to their every whim any more like my INFP sister does.

Thankfully, my ISTP husband never had a problem disagreeing with my parents or standing up to them (one reason I wanted to marry him!) and I get his cooperation when I don't want to bend over backwards for my family.

Showing a united front is KEY.

 

[alcea rosea]

Oh god, I do understand you. I have similar problems with ESTJ who comes and visits us monthly. The only thing that works for me is to say it out loud when the ESTJ does soemthing I don't like.

Showing a united front is KEY.

Extremely good point by INTJMom!

 

[cdal233]

I have an ESTJ father and an INTP mother.

Naturally, the path to success almost my whole life was to run the problem past my mom, and she would take care of it for me, but she has given me more than enough advice that I have used on my own throughout my lifetime.


What I have seen that works the best for me is to beat him in a game of his own logic... when he brings it up. This tends to work really well, but I have to be able to read situations to be able to creatively link his assumptions to the thought that he has brought to the surface. It wouldn't always be a confrontational statement, but just something that unleashes an assumption in a way where he's fishing for a response.

NOTE: If he's having fun and decides to 'play along' with your logic game (be it you do it in joke or non-serious format), he won't realize what you're doing until you have already succeeded...

ESTJ's are very predictable when it comes to how they reach their conclusions, so use this as your source of figuring out how to fire him zingers in the moment. Play out his logical track in your mind before he says it, and start coming up with ways to link the logic that he already understands to be true in a way that reveals his assumption. Make sure the logic you're pulling to link together is ALREADY LOGIC HE KNOWS AND DEPENDS ON... so you don't have to explain your assumptions on something he hasn't realized yet. If this happens, back away gracefully or prepare to get serious. Pretty soon he'll be backed in a corner where his assumptions are failing him, and thats when he starts to realize. If it's coming off as a game to him, he will most likely laugh it off as nothing. If it got serious, it will probably provoke a negative response. Either way, you won't see the behavior happen much more in the future. Or, it becomes blatantly obvious that his assumptions are faulty by his answering questions illogically... realizing this one way or another.


I understand that both me and my mom are INTP's, and this comes somewhat naturally to us. I wouldn't know how you could adopt this strategy, but it would be worth it. Let me assure you his views are much much more open minded than the typical ESTJ, in the ways that restrict or annoy us in one way or another. I come to you with a solution that works, and IT WORKS VERY WELL. Just imagine a family of observers, with nothing to observe except for this behavior. He has quite literally taken the stance towards my brother and I that we can do whatever we want without criticism/rules... as long as we can logically explain it and not consciously mess it up. Being it that my brother (the only other person in my family of 4 growing up) is an ISTP, I almost feel bad for my dad... if it wasn't reality that he is 'the one in power'. 3 Ti's plotting how to utilize and mold the influence of the dominant TeSi leading the pack. He never had a chance from the start.

 

[runvardh]

Honestly, I warn girls about my mother and to not take her BS; hurts doing it but I've lived the alternative...

 

[Griffi97]

I come to you with a solution that works, and IT WORKS VERY WELL.

This sounds great, but I don't think I have the ability to pull it off. My problem is that my emotional response so completely overwhelms me that my ability to use logic goes right out the window. I wish I had an INTP ally to show me how it's done. I will work on trying to keep my emotional response in check.