[Traditional Enneagram] Head types are no fear types in my eyes.

[Ron]

Well yes because you can not function with out all three centre's.

You don't have anything you don't have to call the three types that form a dynamic anything.

You have to call the three part mechanism's 8-7 3 or 8-7 2 or 8-7 4 anything but by giving it all and all three accurate labels is helpful and if have three active function modalities of operational activity, negative positive and neutral then that is helpful nine is more helpful than three and very much more helpful that one.

The hardest type to be as a stubborn person is INTP So/Sx 549

?
i don't see any connection to the wrong (imo) term "fear types".

 

[Ron]

I thought every type experienced shame, anger, and fear. However there are patterns in the degree to which they experience them, how they respond to them, and how they cope with them. It's the very thing from which the type acts on.

Also I was under the impression that when one's overly in the head, the most prominent emotion they feel is mostly fear. ie overthinking

Ime most fear does not pervade every thought and action of the gut and heart types.

yeah, it's a fatal error to call the head types "fear types" in my book.
it's about anticipatory thinking and not fear in my understanding.

and that's inter alia also why e.g. countless male 6s mistype as 8 and countless female 6s mistype as 4.
i've made this experience since 1991 irl and also on 4 american enneagram boards and 4 german enneagram boards since 2004.
most people don't want to be a "fear type". understandable.

 

[Ron]

Head types are just more anxious because THINKING first before FEELING or ACTING (unconscious program).

I'm a 7 and I never seem anxious (unless you really have the opportunity to know me).

I must say I feel more preoccupied with what many people usually don't care about because ...they don't feel concerned about some questions.



And yet... Enneagram Centres

my parents are both head types for example. calling them "fear types" is like calling the ENTJ style of expressing his view "soft".

father: sp/so (strong sp-first) 7w8(sw8w9) - 8w9(sw9w1) -2w1(sw3w2).
mother: so/sx (normal so/sx) 6w7 (sw7w8) - 8w7(sw9w8) -4w3(sw3w2).

sw=subwing.

replace fear with anticipatory thinking.


ps: btw you're the first 7 i see who identifies with being a "fear type"...grin

 

[Evo]

yeah, it's a fatal error to call the head types "fear types" in my book.
it's about anticipatory thinking and not fear in my understanding.

and that's inter alia also why e.g. countless male 6s mistype as 8 and countless female 6s mistype as 4.
i've made this experience since 1991 irl and also on 4 american enneagram boards and 4 german enneagram boards since 2004.
most people don't want to be a "fear type". understandable.

Like I said, the fear pervades everything. Meaning fear rules their every move. Unlike the other triads.

I like when people question institutions of thought, don't get me wrong. I'm all for questioning the system. But it's pretty obvious what has already been established is correct: See below.

I think fear is just a result of a mind fixation. If your mind works all day and questions everything it probably leads to fear more likely than other fixations. For example the fear types (5,6,7) identify themselves with their mind and thoughts. 2,3,4 identify themselves with their emotions that leads to hysteria. 8,9,1 identify themselves with their body/ physical presence and that leads to anger.

 

[Forever]

From what I understand 2,3,4 are shame/social image types 5,6,7 are anxiety/thinking types and 8,9,1 are instinctual/anger types

 

[Santosha]

Fear probably motivates a lot of that anticipatory thinking. Fear, that one will not be able to act spontaneously in unanticipated situations, or that one will lose support and guidance when unanticipated problems arise, or that one will be stuck in boredom, emptiness or pain by unanticipated events.

Though many 5,6,7's might not easily identify this emotion as it's in the backdrop of their thinking process.

 

[Ron]

From what I understand 2,3,4 are shame/social image types 5,6,7 are anxiety/thinking types and 8,9,1 are instinctual/anger types

it's about self- image with the image types and not about "social image" in my understanding.
social image plays a role with the social instinctual variant or the stackings though.


"2,3,4 are shame/social image types"
in my book:
3, 2, 4 are the image types. self-worth triad.

"5,6,7 are anxiety/thinking types"
in my book:
6, 5, 7 are the head types. anticipatory triad.

"8,9,1 are instinctual/anger types"
in my book:
9, 1, 8 are the gut types. justice triad.

 

[Forever]

it's about self- image with the image types and not about "social image" in my understanding.
social image plays a role with the social instinctual variant or the stackings though.


"2,3,4 are shame/social image types"
in my book:
3, 2, 4 are the image types. self-worth triad.

"5,6,7 are anxiety/thinking types"
in my book:
6, 5, 7 are the head types. anticipatory triad.

"8,9,1 are instinctual/anger types"
in my book:
9, 1, 8 are the gut types. justice triad.

You may be right. Although I see 2 and 3 as very external in its presentation, 4 is more internal.

 

[Ron]

Like I said, the fear pervades everything. Meaning fear rules their every move. Unlike the other triads.

I like when people question institutions of thought, don't get me wrong. I'm all for questioning the system. But it's pretty obvious what has already been established is correct: See below.

things like for example "fear rules their every move" or like puiut4 : "If your mind works all day and questions everything it probably leads to fear more likely than other fixations" are cliches in my eyes.

rational consciousness and anticipatory thinking with head types includes e.g. "security, focus on dangers, doubts , assumptions, nervousness, alarm, victimhood, objective understanding, power of knowledge, planing or having many path to choose to find luck...etc" and also child perspective towards "authorities", safety awareness, fear etc.
in my book fear is not the heart of the pattern though. same with shame and image types. so the terms are wrong to me. simple as that.
"institutions of thoughts?" ...grin... everybody has another opinion. not everyone who knows the enneagram sees "fear types"...grin..

for example working 25 years with the enneagram leads to another understanding.
knowing the enneagram for some years and reading some books without own ideas can be a different thing.
there are people all over the world working with the enneagram.
not everyone uses the term "fear types".
not everyone uses wings.
not everyone uses tritypes.
not everyone uses tritype with wing and subwing.
not everyone uses stacking. some only use the dominant instinctual variant.
not everyone uses stacking with sub ranges and stacking wings or shifts etc, etc...

 

[Ron]

You may be right. Although I see 2 and 3 as very external in its presentation, 4 is more internal.

the self-image needs confirmation. not necessarily social confirmation of a "social image" though..

 

[Ron]

Fear probably motivates a lot of that anticipatory thinking. Fear, that one will not be able to act spontaneously in unanticipated situations, or that one will lose support and guidance when unanticipated problems arise, or that one will be stuck in boredom, emptiness or pain by unanticipated events.

Though many 5,6,7's might not easily identify this emotion as it's in the backdrop of their thinking process.

if fear motivates anticipatory thinking with head types then fear also motivates self-assertation of gut types and self -worth/self-image issues with image types.
fear of death is the core fear of humans as we all know.

 

[Evo]

see above, like i've said before, it's not essentially about fear , it's about anticipatory thinking for me.
things like "fear rules their every move" or like puiut4 : "If your mind works all day and questions everything it probably leads to fear more likely than other fixations" are cliches in my eyes.
there are several posts in that style in this thread so far ...
as i said before, rational consciousness with head types includes e.g. "security, focus on dangers, doubts , assumptions, nervousness, alarm, victimhood, objective understanding, power of knowledge, planing or having many path to choose to find luck...etc" and also safety awareness, fear etc.
in my book fear is not the heart of the pattern though. same with shame and image types. so the terms are wrong to me. simple as that.
"institutions of thoughts?" ...grin... everybody has another opinion. not everyone who knows the enneagram sees "fear types"...grin..

for example working 25 years with the enneagram leads to another understanding.
knowing the enneagram for some years and reading some books without own ideas can be a different thing.
there are people all over the world working with the enneagram.
not everyone uses the term "fear types".
not everyone uses wings.
not everyone uses tritypes.
not everyone uses tritype with wing and subwing.
not everyone uses stacking. some only use the dominant instinctual variant.
not everyone uses stacking with sub ranges and stacking wings or shifts etc, etc...

Well, we're obviously not getting anywhere by discussing definitions...lol

So i'm curious, what you would suggest to call them then?

Also, do you take issue with the terms used to describe the gut triad?

 

[Ron]

Well, we're obviously not getting anywhere by discussing definitions...lol

So i'm curious, what you would suggest to call them then?

Also, do you take issue with the terms used to describe the gut triad?

i've suggested my terms on page 1 as to all triads.
hmm, i hope people read my posts before they answer me...grin

 

[Ron]

and also on page 3.

 

[Santosha]

Ya know, I agree. I've actually considered this before, how fear is behind shame and anger. I'll have to think (haha reflect) on it a little more. I just viewed the model as being shaped by the predominantly identified emotions behind the fixation. And I'm not really certain why two triads take a 2nd flip... But perhaps shame and anger are just extensions of fear with their own specific vibrational nuance. I dunno.

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

replace fear with anticipatory thinking.


ps: btw you're the first 7 i see who identifies with being a "fear type"...grin

Exactly We do remplace fear with "thinking", sometimes too much...

The good point (I'm speaking for myself !) is that I have understood I MUST (and not I can) use that tremendous en precious energy and transform it into something positive (because rationalisation

seems positive but it isn't let's be honest, it just helps !), which isn't thinking too much

Writing, playing, understanding dreams, communicating, planning but ...being present in the moment...

I'd advise a good daily meditation to any type and not only to the head types to connect to others things into ourselves than the mental part.


And Yes, I am a 7 who is today able to see my fears...after years and years of psychoanalysis and researches about myself and people generally speaking... :bookish:

https://youtu.be/XOuuk9ms0So

That man, Tom Condon, is great (he is an 8 wing 9) I have met him for a conference abroad, he is so much passionate and good with people.

You can trust him if you wish to understand his works and/or leave your soul between his hands

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

As a head type I know I have 2 big fears that will be there until I die :


I hate feeling controlled (unfairly) -probably my 8wing-and I hate people who don't give me enough space to breath and be myself (and I do need a lot of space and time with myself).


As long as fears are not pathologic (they allow you to feel comfortable in the environment you have chosen to be) one can have a good life

Let's not forget our fears, conscious or not are useful : they help us understanding where to improve, how to protect ourselves...etc.

I must confess too : as a head type I get on instinctively with head types. I can smell them miles away

 

[Ron]

....

And Yes, I am a 7 who is today able to see my fears...after years and years of psychoanalysis and researches about myself and people generally speaking... :bookish:

https://youtu.be/XOuuk9ms0So

That man, Tom Condon, is great (he is an 8 wing 9) I have met him for a conference abroad, he is so much passionate and good with people.

You can trust him if you wish to understand his works and/or leave your soul between his hands

every human being has fears. tom condon is a sp/so 6w5 in my book. 2w1 and 8w9 fixes.


e.g also typical overexpression with facial expressions and body language a la 6.
these agitated, panic seeming eyes as a man although he's sitting there just talking about the enneagram...grin:

padma, a female sp/sx (strong sp) 6w5 -1w2-2w1 in my eyes, talking about the enneagram...grin.
she selftypes as 4 and holds lectures as an enneagram teacher like condon.
again these panic seeming eyes...

or mel gibson, so/sx (strong sx) 6w5-8w7-3w2 in my eyes:

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

every human being has fears. tom condon is a sp/so 6w5 in my book. 2w1 and 8w9 fixes.


e.g also typical overexpression with facial expressions and body language a la 6:

If you say so...he told me himself he is an 8... anyway he is still a great man !

Also, I have mistyped myself for years... even some enneagram teachers were wrong.

Very easy to make mistakes when dealing with human beings...

Details and personal stories (+behaviours) make the difference.

The problem with enneagram teachers is that they don't ask enough questions about your past. Most people are mistyped because of their wing or disintegration type.

But this is another subject...

 

[Ron]

If you say so...he told me himself he is an 8...

yeah, he would not be the first 6w5 with 8w9 gut fix who selftypes as core 8w9.
especially with 2w1 fix ( the most gutish seeming imagefix) and sp/so ( the most gutish seeming stacking).
i also disagree with a lot of his celeb -typings btw.
so it seems we have a different enneagram understanding anyway.

some sp/so 8w9s in my book -maby you see the difference with the rather relaxed facial expressions:

8w9 sp/so Dennis Haysbert (6w5-3w4) Interview: Dennis Haysbert (Operation Kids and AllState) - YouTube
8w9 sp/so (sw9w1) Graciano Rocchigiani (6w5-3w2) Graciano Rocchigiani bei Stefan Raab (2007) - YouTube
8w9 sp/so (sw9w1) John Wayne (7w8-2w1) https://youtu.be/I3Go2Q6GF0o
8w9 sp/so (sw9w1) Sir Alex Ferguson (6w5-2w1) The Full Sir Alex Ferguson Interview With Charlie Rose - Talks Retirement, Wayne Rooney, Chelsea Job - YouTube
8w9 sp/so (sw9w1) Bud Spencer (6w5-2w1) Bud Spencer and Terence Hill on german TV Show Wetten, dass..? 1983 Part1 - YouTube
8w9 sp/so (sw9w1) Spencer Tracy (6w5-2w1) A Visit with Spencer Tracy | Dana-Farber Cancer Institute - YouTube
8w9 sp/so (sw9w1) Louis van Gaal (6w5-2w1) Louis van Gaal teaches Dutch journalists [Starts at 00.35] - YouTube
8w9 sp/so (sw9w1) Horst Hrubesch (6w5-2w1) https://youtu.be/Inp1nc9JYBo