[ENFJ] Hate an ENFJ? Tell us why!

[Eileen]

We should start a thread like this for all types. I'm starting to feel sad for ENFJs because they've been singled out.

/INFJ

 

[substitute]

We should start a thread like this for all types. I'm starting to feel sad for ENFJs because they've been singled out.

/INFJ

Hmm, the passive voice there wasn't quite warranted, as it was an ENFJ who started the thread and asked for it!

There is an extensive 'rant on ENTP's' thread already, though, where 'my kind' have been accused of everything from leaving the cap off the toothpaste to bringing original sin into the world, so that's me covered!

Incidentally, I used to have problems with INFJ's, but these days I find them one of the most relaxing and pleasant types to be with

 

[LadyJaye]

Oh yeah, I definitely relate.

When you think about it, the ENFJ strategy to life is a clever and deceptive one. They make themselves needed by doing things for others. Everybody starts thinking they're extremely nice and caring. However, there is subtle emotional blackmail involved: "I'll be nice to you as long as you'll be nice to me, or else you'll see my wrath". The ENFJ can be placed in a position with many friends, then proceed to turn them against anyone who threatens them by gossiping and making them swallow their view. You are then depicted as a bad person for x, y and z reasons... even though before the problem you were described as completely awesome (and it only needed one disagreement for you to be the devil incarnate).

My problem with this explanation is that it ascribes an almost sinister value to the motives of all ENFJ's, and I don't think that's reasonable. For the ENFJ's I know, I have dealt with a few that were manipulative, but I think that social manipulation can be true of any type, not just this one in particular. Also, I believe their need for helping others is genuine - they do care about people. The ENFJ's that jump off the deep end are the ones that use this ability to connect to others as a form of cultish congress.

 

[LadyJaye]

Yes, exactly the same here. Except that because I suffer from self-doubt quite a lot, I often find it hard to get onto phase 4.

It's actually been pretty powerful for me to read this thread. One of the tactics they use on me is to make me doubt and hate myself, make me believe I'm a crazy asshole, get everyone on their side and sorta 'remove' me from any means of getting things into their proper perspective so that there's only them 'feeding' me with their 'reality'. Psychological abuse, basically.

To see other people feeling the same way I've felt so often, seeing the same reaction here from some of the ENFJ's and seeing it rebutted by others with the same things I often think, it's been quite moving for me. Honestly, I feel like an abused wife at a support meeting, being told for the first time that it's okay to feel angry and upset when someone beats you up for burning the dinner!!

WOW - it sounds like you've had some really dreadful personal experiences with ENFJ's. I'm so very sorry. You can use Pink Piranha to be a safe therapy ENFJ, as I can guarantee that she is not in any way an abusive person. Oddly enough, I think that ENFJ's feel quite vulnerable to the barbs and stings of others, because they have such a dominant feeling function, and therefore, they are more on the defensive to what they may perceive as a slight or a criticism. That can be extremely tiresome, I know. Pink often tells me that when we're in an argument, she feels everything acutely, like her emotions are being pulled through a shredder, and that it's much more difficult for her to "walk it off" after an altercation. Of course, she could probably explain this so much better than myself.

And there is always a type that one will be especially vulnerable too - for me, it's ISTJ. I think every ISTJ I've ever had a relationship with has caused my shoulders to climb up around my ears with tension.

 

[Lookin4theBestNU]

I think (hope) I'm being captain obvious here for future thread readers. One ENFJs behavior(s) (including my own) does not reflect on the entire type in general. Since it does say "Hate AN ENFJ? Tell us why" though I am figuring everyone knows that....but I couldn't help but make sure. /end captain obvious mode

 

[alcea rosea]

I have known 2 ENFJ's in my life (at least I know that they are ENFJ's), one is female and other male and I met both of them in my workplace. They have both excellent people skills and I felt "natural" bonding with them immediately. I found both of them very interesting, intelligent and warm people. They are also both absolutely great about making the organization athmosphere positive.

One negative thing I found in the male ENFJ during a really bad times in the organization. I found out that he is extremely capable of bringing the organization athmosphere down if he feels violated. Somebody might call that manipulation of people. He was very dissapointed with the superiors and had his revenge by turning everybody against the management. It was really not a pretty sight to see.

I have nothing but good to say about the female ENFJ that I know. She is really a great person and personality. I really do like her a lot and that I can say only of few people (even if I am a people-person).

 

[gretch]

HAHA this is so me.

Oh my gosh!!!! I just got on this forum and we have the same avatar!!!!!! Bwahahaha!

My NF originality complex can't handle it!!!


As for NJ's I think they tend to believe in absolute truths of the universe. NP's flutter about more about it searching the far reaces of every theory, whereas NJ's consolidate and solidify and consolidate and solidify.

My only annoyance with the ENFJ I know is also what I admire most about him. Keirsy calls them teachers. I think this fits well. he always feels a sense of moral authority on subjects and explains the reasons for the moral so concisely. He's very black and white, and very thorough.

 

[Yomama99]

ENFJ men are alright, tolerable for a couple minutes. But ENFJ women for some reason especially if I find them ugly will think of me as a prime enemy.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

I normally avoid stereotypes, but I don't like how ENFJs spit when they talk, have freckles, can't do magic tricks, always warm up their pizza, and are slow to blow up inflatable pools.

 

[Mempy]

I have an ENFJ friend who is going through a prolonged, messed-up time right now. She doesn't seem to like herself very much.

She's affectionate but not real or honest with me. She claims I'm one of her best friends, but I don't sense any connection between us. We don't seem to share many opinions, but I really can't tell, because she never seems to be honest with me.

One thing that REALLY bugs me about her is her lack of authenticity. She doesn't keep her commitments. She's told me more times than I can count that she'll be somewhere on college campus waiting for me, but she never is. Nope. Yet I never hear even an explanation from her the next time I see her regarding why she wasn't there. It's not like I expect her to be there, but what confuses me is why she continues to tell me that she will. Why say you'll be there, when you know very well you probably won't? Why not even bring up the fact that you've ditched me up until now? Why not try to explain or increase your reliability in my eyes? If you DO expect to be somewhere to meet someone, but can't make it, you later explain to them why you couldn't make it, right? Mhmm. But she doesn't hold herself to that.

I've always gotten the impression that this ENFJ hides her true personality behind niceties. Basically, she's a fraud. She probably decides what kind of person she has to be in order to get affection and love, and in doing so she rejects her true self. I'd like to see the REAL her for once. When I befriend someone, I want to befriend THEM, not their self-image or their fake pleasantries.

Overall, this ENFJ makes about 2% of sense to me. LOL. I wish I could help her, but I don't think she likes herself at all, and it's so entirely awkward between us when we do interact. How can she call me a close friend? I'm flattered on the one hand, and perplexed on the other.

She has a history of self-mutilation and anorexia, she claims. She's constantly mentioning these extremely personal, dark parts of herself. I know it's a cry for help, but more often than not this just puts me in an extremely awkward position, because I don't feel like she's honest with me most of the time and we're not close at all. Besides that, I don't know what to say to unmitigated, unchecked, unashamed self-hate.

Her pleasant facade and her life problems contradict each other. Why, if she's in the shithole, does she contiue to present a pleasant face to the world? I want to see her real emotions. I want her to keep her commitments. I want her to be honest with me. Most of all, I want her to have a better self-concept. I think it's the source of all her problems.

 

[Lookin4theBestNU]

That was an exceptionally good post Mempy! In fact when it comes to talk of 'unhealthy ENFJs' it's really the first time I've actually seen great insight. This thread is not about defending ourselves but instead really listening. I know I am trying! I disagree with a few of your conclusions (mostly the fraud/fakeness) and if you would like to know how to relate to your ENFJ friend, please PM me anytime. I would do my best to tell the truth. I've been through so much of how you described her .

Besides that, I don't know what to say to unmitigated, unchecked, unashamed self-hate.

Her pleasant facade and her life problems contradict each other. Why, if she's in the shithole, does she contiue to present a pleasant face to the world? I want to see her real emotions. I want her to keep her commitments. I want her to be honest with me. Most of all, I want her to have a better self-concept. I think it's the source of all her problems.

This part was excellent. Identifying this as a problem (which I always knew it was) is completely different then finding a solution. I'm 30 years old and it still rears it's ugly head despite my constant efforts to fight. I don't know that other ENFJs (the healthier ones) have these problems, but I certainly relate.

Anyway, thanks again for your post. Constructive criticism as well insight is always welcome.

 

[Mempy]

That was an exceptionally good post Mempy! In fact when it comes to talk of 'unhealthy ENFJs' it's really the first time I've actually seen great insight. This thread is not about defending ourselves but instead really listening. I know I am trying! I disagree with a few of your conclusions (mostly the fraud/fakeness) and if you would like to know how to relate to your ENFJ friend, please PM me anytime. I would do my best to tell the truth. I've been through so much of how you described her .

This part was excellent. Identifying this as a problem (which I always knew it was) is completely different then finding a solution. I'm 30 years old and it still rears it's ugly head despite my constant efforts to fight. I don't know that other ENFJs (the healthier ones) have these problems, but I certainly relate.

Anyway, thanks again for your post. Constructive criticism as well insight is always welcome.

Oh, I am very glad of that. Thank you for the compliment. I admire your willingness to listen and tackle some of the main issues ENFJs may have.

I'm glad it has some resonance with you on the one hand, and sad on the other. My ENFJ friend really seems unhappy right now. I would really appreciate some insight on how to approach her, what advice might help her and how to present that advice to her, etc. She's a good, wonderful girl, but very upset. I know ENFJs are great, but this one needs a happiness booster. If I could help her out, even in a small way, I would in a heartbeat.

I may take you up on that PM offer L4, but feel free to discuss any input you have here.

 

[Economica]

I may take you up on that PM offer L4, but feel free to discuss any input you have here.

Yes, public will be appreciated.

 

[Lookin4theBestNU]

*sigh* I think I offered the PM for self protection as well as being helpful. When things get really personal it's hard for me to be so open. The problem is that I don't know how to do it without saying all I've been through as well. I'm going to try without revealing too much. OK here goes.

Drama alert!

During the hardest parts of my life I came across all kinds of people. I was always in the process of learning how people worked. Early in my life and now to this day there is a constant cycle of up/down dark/light thoughts. They are not 'fake' instead they are two contradictory forces both very real and ever present. The times I was happy were real not a show...like an escape from a nightmare almost. They temporarily allowed you to be what you want to be anyway...free. You do your best not to let the sad parts of you take you completely over. People always seem pleased with you when you are happy and pleasant. You could sense (like your awkwardness) that most people don't want to know about the dark parts of you. You are left to dwell alone or tell someone and the decision can be difficult! You don't know who you can trust or who could even handle it. You begin to imagine that you are incredibly complex. Then you have people who come along to "help" you. "You know you can trust me...right?" Then you find yourself hurt again countless times by those who claimed you could trust them. You then realize (or already have by this point) that the problem is YOU not others. This is where the real trauma began for me anyway. You end up blaming yourself for everything. Then you end up believing it.


So....my suggestions. I would have liked it if someone would let me get out all of those things without judgment. I would have liked it if someone could understand that every single part of how I act is the 'real me' and they could verbalize this understanding. I didn't want people to make me feel ashamed of my feelings. When people are successful in shaming you into what is already a hard place to be...you learn to shut if all off. I think when ENFJs become shut-off from the world and then themselves it's difficult to mature. You just stop. I don't know if any of this made sense...but it's a small snippet of me nonetheless. I guess you could call me an Emo kid .

 

[Littlelostnf]

*sigh* I think I offered the PM for self protection as well as being helpful. When things get really personal it's hard for me to be so open. The problem is that I don't know how to do it without saying all I've been through as well. I'm going to try without revealing too much. OK here goes.

Drama alert!

During the hardest parts of my life I came across all kinds of people. I was always in the process of learning how people worked. Early in my life and now to this day there is a constant cycle of up/down dark/light thoughts. They are not 'fake' instead they are two contradictory forces both very real and ever present. The times I was happy were real not a show...like an escape from a nightmare almost. They temporarily allowed you to be what you want to be anyway...free. You do your best not to let the sad parts of you take you completely over. People always seem pleased with you when you are happy and pleasant. You could sense (like your awkwardness) that most people don't want to know about the dark parts of you. You are left to dwell alone or tell someone and the decision can be difficult! You don't know who you can trust or who could even handle it. You begin to imagine that you are incredibly complex. Then you have people who come along to "help" you. "You know you can trust me...right?" Then you find yourself hurt again countless times by those who claimed you could trust them. You then realize (or already have by this point) that the problem is YOU not others. This is where the real trauma began for me anyway. You end up blaming yourself for everything. Then you end up believing it.


So....my suggestions. I would have liked it if someone would let me get out all of those things without judgment. I would have liked it if someone could understand that every single part of how I act is the 'real me' and they could verbalize this understanding. I didn't want people to make me feel ashamed of my feelings. When people are successful in shaming you into what is already a hard place to be...you learn to shut if all off. I think when ENFJs become shut-off from the world and then themselves it's difficult to mature. You just stop. I don't know if any of this made sense...but it's a small snippet of me nonetheless. I guess you could call me an Emo kid .

Drama alert II

I'm sitting here quite honestly in tears. The above (and I don't think it's just about being "unhealthy") Is so true. You really nailed it L4.

My father has always said to me that he loves me so much because I remind him of my mother in that she was and is a really happy person and that's what attracted him to her...he still feels the same 52 years into their marraige later. I've heard this since I was a little girl and for the most part I am quite a happy person and it is very real (not living up to an expectation) I find delight in everything...people, myself, nature, music, art, books...how can I not be happy...BUT I can remember the first time I fell into a "dark place". I felt so alone there but also I felt unable to share (even with my closest friends) how I felt. I thought this is NOT me. I hadn't yet learned to accept that it WAS me. Fortunately I have extremely good friends who were amazing during that first time. They didn't say snap out of it or what's wrong with you. They didn't let me close myself off. They respected my privacy but told me it's ok...it's like this sometimes and even tho we were worried because we've never seen this side of you. We love ALL of you. You don't have to be eternally cheerful for us. We don't want you to drown in your sorrow but if you have to swim there for awhile we're waiting on the shore just watching until you're ready to come in and when you do we're here to help you ashore. I still have the letters and emails from that first time. There have been subsequent times not nearly as awful but just from the initial way my nearest and dearest helped me the first time I've learned how to navigate my way out of the dark spots, all the while respecting them for what they are and even sometimes asking for help to swim ashore. I think I prob am a healthier ENFJ and I have to thank my parents and my upbringing for that. My parents don't always understand me but their love for me covers over that and I had a fabulous situation for growing up NF.

L4 I am similar in that most times it's like..."could we be private about this please" But I want to thank you for putting yourself out there because honestly this was perfect for me to wake up to and read. Thank you. I think just being able to say what you said is HUGE and a perfect example of an ENFJ (or any type) knowing themselves, being able to express it and some real self reflecting going on. I ya kideo. I have to say I'm glad they asked you to keep it public. Thank you.

 

[proteanmix]

Lookin4 has already received my thanks about that post but I just want to publicly third what both of you have said.

There is very fine line between neediness, dependency, and support. I know that as much as it appears that I don't, I need a copious amounts of love and support. I have a very close relationship with my mother and she's the only person I know capable of supporting me in the way I need to be. My friends have commented on why I talk to my mother upwards of two or three times a day, which I completely understand why it is interpreted as being dependent. I don't view myself as being needy or dependent because it's limited to only one person it's just that a lot of things, just daily things that people don't even think twice about hit me hard. I feel embarrased about it because I know that it's like an overreaction. I wrote about this in my blog but when I went to a restaurant earlier this year and the waitress thought I was trying to stiff her tip, I began to tear up. My friends thought I was overreacting and but I didn't know how else to respond. I've spilled my guts to exactly two people (and these are my closest friends whom I trust and love) and they both looked at me as if transmogrified or something horrible and didn't say or do anything. I felt very exposed and embarrassed so I don't do it.

Honestly, I use my Fe as a defense mechanism and it works superbly. As long as I keep somebody talking about their favorite subject matter, THEMSELF, they're quite happy to go on and on which probably reinforces my view that if I start talking about myself in any kind of depth they really won't care about it. Pinkpirahna has touched on this in her NFJ temperament thread, but it's really an all or nothing thing with me. Either I'm there completely (which scares people off) or I'm not at all, which still gives the appearance of being there but it's hollow and I pretty sure that people can pick up on this. This is also why I am extremely picky about who I become friends with. I can't have people around me that I can't trust. Breach of trust is a major violation to me and if it looks judgmental to outsiders then that's just how it looks. I am dangerously capable of immersing myself in another person and I must protect myself in some way.

Mempy, you friend may be feeling strains of this which is why she's reluctant to open up to you. Obviously she's in a very bad place and will probably need lots of patience and time to open up.

 

[Lookin4theBestNU]

I didn't mean to bring you tears sweetie! I was actually quite worried that I would make ENFJs as a whole look a bit odd! I'm very happy to know that it didn't! I'm sorry in a way too that some ENFJs identify with it and perhaps it's not all that unhealthy just part of the temperament perhaps. I think I could have taken it to an extreme...drama/hyperbole tendencies with feelings is my lot. I generally just do not tell others though. It was very hard to do it in front of God knows who. I think it can be therapeutic for us to step out of the box we confine ourselves too.

Your parents relationship sounds very wonderful. My parents are very similar in personality (SJs). I think my dad is a T but he certainly played more of the F role with me. I think if were not for that I would have ended up even unhealthier. I remember him sitting me down as a small child and telling me he knew I was different...sensitive . He really used his intuition too. All in all I don't blame anyone for the way I turned out in life. I would say some of the trials I went through as a child made me much stronger and more independent.

I really didn't find the acceptance I was looking for outside my family unit until I had already been through the cycles listed in my previous post. Two ISTX people (my husband and best friend) were really the first people who were able to give me any peace of mind regarding my normalcy. I don't make 'close' friends easily though I have lots of friends<---Keirsey was spot on there!


Anyway I am finally getting to what I consider a good spot in life. I still have all of the feelings of the ENFJ listed in Mempys post. I just don't let them take up as much space anymore but I have to battle with it. For some reason it's easy for me to believe that I am a horrible human being and people who know me just don't see it. I've went into posts before regarding self delusion. Anyway I am about to get into a really long rambling episode though only had the intention of saying thanks for your support LLNF! So...thanks !!

EDIT: Thanks to you of course too PM!!

 

[Usehername]

I feel like I am learning so much.


Keep it going! You guys are weird only in an endearing way

 

[Littlelostnf]

I didn't mean to bring you tears sweetie! I was actually quite worried that I would make ENFJs as a whole look a bit odd!

Who us?...odd....HA! Nah that was dead on in a scary and wonderful and well said way. We are weird..but it's ALLLLL good.

I'm very happy to know that it didn't! I'm sorry in a way too that some ENFJs identify with it and perhaps it's not all that unhealthy just part of the temperament perhaps. !

First thing I think is unhealthy but perhaps it's not..but no matter if it is or isn't it's "us" and when we learn to deal with it...we just get better and better

Your parents relationship sounds very wonderful. My parents are very similar in personality (SJs).

My mom ISFJ my dad ISTP..they totally work well together. My dad is fairly balanced on the T/F I think...and my mom fairly balanced on her F/T that prob really helped.

I really didn't find the acceptance I was looking for outside my family unit until I had already been through the cycles listed in my previous post. Two ISTX people (my husband and best friend) were really the first people who were able to give me any peace of mind regarding my normalcy. I don't make 'close' friends easily though I have lots of friends<---Keirsey was spot on there!!

Tell me about it..Keirsey I'd like to sit down with him and chat. Yup..I have many many acquaintances and many people who would claim to know me but close friends..far fewer.

PM I really enjoyed your post also..thanks for the added look into an ENFJ's psyche.

Oh and Usehername. I think you're going to have to put out the questions for us to respond to..I think it's harder to just come up with things rather than just respond. But I'm sure you'll get some more info...whatever happened to your ENFJ thread...buried eh...ha those ENFP's know how to keep their threads going...maybe we should take lessons.

 

[Usehername]

Oh and Usehername. I think you're going to have to put out the questions for us to respond to..I think it's harder to just come up with things rather than just respond. But I'm sure you'll get some more info...whatever happened to your ENFJ thread...buried eh...ha those ENFP's know how to keep their threads going...maybe we should take lessons.

Okay: new subject matter.

Once upon a time I knew this male ENFJ. I did not know about MBTI at the time, although I was months away from learning. We had only met a few months earlier, but it was on my gap year program so living together 24/7 you grow to know each other pretty quickly. He was 18 I was 19.

He and I were stationed at a marathon together to be the flag-waving guides and traffic barrier people at one of the many intersections in the marathon (in Seattle).
We were awfully cold so we were jumping around and goofing off a bit to keep warm and entertain ourselves. By 7 am or so, it was starting to warm up and I noticed that he was getting goofier. I thought to myself, this made no sense. We started ridiculously early in the morning while we were cold and tired, so goofiness in that situation is to be expected. But getting goofier as the day warmed and we woke up more?

Eventually, we started cheering for the marathon racers that were beginning to make it as far as our station. He started getting ridiculously excited and was screaming so loudly and cheering soo ridiculously well for every runner coming our way, I was just baffled but thought it was cute to see him so into it. (Cute in a non-crush way). The runners super appreciated the ridiculous encouragement, too, which only further increased how high he was jumping and how loud he was cheering.

Months later, he told me that day was important to him because it was the first time on the program he felt he could fully be himself. He said I let him be himself and he tremendously valued that.

But, what I don't understand, is why he didn't feel comfortable enough to do that in the first place. Do you guys feel that you have to shut out a part of yourselves to be accepted? Do any other ENFJs feel like they can't be themselves around others? Was this simply an age thing for him?