[ENFJ] Getting under all those ENFJ layers

[proteanmix]

I am extremely sorry if I created a thread that pushed your buttons.

What I am mostly concerned is having an ENFJ wanting (or even trying subtly) to open up and I screw it up because I dont always pick up on the small things. I want to create a safe place properly and not screw something up.

You're fine, Malkavia...it's my problem not yours hence why I try not to reply.

 

[Unkindloving]

What I am mostly concerned is having an ENFJ wanting (or even trying subtly) to open up and I screw it up because I dont always pick up on the small things. I want to create a safe place properly and not screw something up.

That is when you communicate to them. If you notice the withdraw, communicate and put forth the effort to resolve it.
An ENFJ may be hesitant at first (so tread carefully), but they'll appreciate someone taking the time to discuss and put an issue to rest. It may put you ahead of a lot of people in the ENFJs world, actually. We're very used to being the main source of damage control.

 

[Malkavia]

You're fine, Malkavia...it's my problem not yours hence why I try not to reply.

Just wanting to make sure. Youre wonderful!

 

[Venom]

I've got the most awesome group of people around me with so little drama it's ridiculous and since I have such great friends I know I must be doing something right.

Im guessing you've managed to avoid the ENFPs?

If you're trying to create a safe space for your friend to open up then I'd pay attention to all those little mundane things this person says because those may be pieces of that person they're trying to give you but you're looking for the prime cuts. Maybe they're seeing how you treat the smaller, less significant stuff before stepping it up a level.

+1

I kind of put "little things out there" to see how people react before putting weirder more personal stuff out. If you dont react well to the little stuff, then theres pretty much no chance I'm ever going to reveal my weirder and more personal stuff. Your loss :steam:

 

[Glycerine]

Everyone else might be entertained by this but my ENFPness can see the layers and want in!!!

It's rather funny that you say that. It seems like many ENFPs think they can read ENFJs pretty well and vice versa but in reality, most people don't seem to know what they are talking about.

ENFPs seem to misread me a lot and vice versa. I find Ne can go overboard with possibilities/ go in a totally off-base direction and the Fi projects based on how the ENFP would feel. On the other hand, Fe can make a snap judgement based on what the ENFJ sees and will get stuck reading way too much into 1 or 2 possibilities and will get tunnel-vision through Ni. These are the major weaknesses I see in ENFJs and ENFPs when they try to read other people.

It's usually other ENFJs and INFPs that can read me the best.

DISCLAIMER: This is what I have noticed in many ENFX (myself included), IME.

 

[Malkavia]

Pyramid doesnt speak for me, at least.

I dont necessarily try to read people. I just like being around people and have an interest in them. Why not learn how to create a great environment for everyone I know? I seem to be the most insecure when it comes to ENFJs and I admit my inability to read them.

 

[Glycerine]

Pyramid doesnt speak for me, at least.

I dont necessarily try to read people. I just like being around people and have an interest in them. Why not learn how to create a great environment for everyone I know? I seem to be the most insecure when it comes to ENFJs and I admit my inability to read them.

Sorry for the accusatory tone. ENFPs have the same effect on me also. The one thing I generally like about ENFPs is that all seem really genuinely nice and sweet. I have yet to meet a jerkface ENFP. haha

 

[Southern Kross]

I told myself I would not reply to these threads anymore because I never have anything nice to say and yet here I am!

If someone were doing this to me and I didn't want to play along, I'd throw more Fe shade at them.

I don't have to open the door just because somebody knocks. I don't believe anyone has a right to my insides just because they show interest. My insides are my own and if I choose to share I will and am perfectly capable of doing so. I don't need gentle nudging or reassurances the coast is clear because I have eyes to see and a brain to put all the pieces together. I find the bolded a little offensive because I guard my more tender parts viciously. I know how I am when I feel they've been violated and that's not pretty.

I have total confidence in my ability to vet and assess the character of those I want to get closer to and if I feel reservations about a person, I go with that feeling. I've got the most awesome group of people around me with so little drama it's ridiculous and since I have such great friends I know I must be doing something right. And to be honest, I don't feel like my nougaty center is any more fascinating than anyone else's so you're just as likely to get there and be disappointed as delightfully surprised.

Hey, I sympathize with your outburst . I feel the same - INFPs in general are much the same as ENFJs in this regard (and I personally find that ENFJ depth and intensity very sexy ). It can be insulting and infuriating when people don't respect your need for inner privacy and your reasons for not opening up. Worst of all are people who attempt to get inside your head like its a game to be won.

I reserve the right to let in who I want and there's no straight forward way of getting me open up. If I had someone trying to get into my head I would clamp up and stay clear because I would go insane if I'm not in control of that part of me. I only remotely open up when there is an earned trust - when someone makes me feel profoundly safe and unjudged (ie. they won't go spreading stuff around) in their presence. I will then let my guard down without even thinking about it - because the warmth of that trust makes me want to do so. The only way to get me to this point is to be a patient, considerate, interested, ingenuous human being over and over again, day in day out.

No offence to your question Malkavia. ENFPs are actually the type that make me open up the most - you're all so disarming.

 

[Malkavia]

No offense taken Southern Kross. However I think what you say can apply to people in general not just certain types. Who enjoys someone trying to pry into their personal life when they have already decided they arent allowed in?

 

[pyramid]

It's rather funny that you say that. It seems like many ENFPs think they can read ENFJs pretty well and vice versa but in reality, most people don't seem to know what they are talking about.

ENFPs seem to misread me a lot and vice versa. I find Ne can go overboard with possibilities/ go in a totally off-base direction and the Fi projects based on how the ENFP would feel. On the other hand, Fe can make a snap judgement based on what the ENFJ sees and will get stuck reading way too much into 1 or 2 possibilities and will get tunnel-vision through Ni. These are the major weaknesses I see in ENFJs and ENFPs when they try to read other people.

It's usually other ENFJs and INFPs that can read me the best.

DISCLAIMER: This is what I have noticed in many ENFX (myself included), IME.

I can't read ENFJ well and that's what I like! I can tell there's a lot there; it's all coded to ENFP. sometimes I feel like the ENFJ must have a motive or expectation assigned to an ENFP for a reason that they want to know the person. A solid ENFP's intentions are pure! I swear!

I just see ENFP and ENFJ as each other's strongest motivators. I think it's awesome.

 

[Unkindloving]

I can't read ENFJ well and that's what I like! I can tell there's a lot there; it's all coded to ENFP. sometimes I feel like the ENFJ must have a motive or expectation assigned to an ENFP for a reason that they want to know the person. A solid ENFP's intentions are pure! I swear!

I just see ENFP and ENFJ as each other's strongest motivators. I think it's awesome.

I love to vibe off of ENFPs. It's like they give ENFJs the various perspectives (and not so Fe perspective) they may need, while ENFJs can give the encouragement or J-directive that the ENFP may need.

When i read of ENFP-ENFJ mismatches, it makes me think they didn't figure out how to play off each other's eccentricity. For me, it's very light and indirectly-direct until it needs to be direct.

 

[TopherRed]

Yeah, it's a little hard, sometimes one or the other is uptight, and you're afraid of totally knifing them with a jab you'd normally reserve for your T friends.

 

[TopherRed]

Any of my fellow ENFJs feel like a Gordita Crunch whenever you read the title of this thread?

 

[toast]

I'm just going to chime in & emphasize one point almost everyone has brought up: be interested, let it show.

This is definitely an issue that stands out for me. I almost have a compulsion to start talking about myself once someone actually wants to know (and I can tell that its genuine). It usually starts with little things, like small life experiences, opinions & judgments. If, through this point, you are giving off external signs that you value my memories / feelings, I will keep going. Once I get to my favorite cat getting hit by my neighbor, and your eyes are wandering. SLAM! We'll start talking about you, and you'll never get anything more from my internal world until things change.

This is far more frustrating for me than it is for the person trying to know, I'm sure. Its annoying that most people seem to be completely uninterested in truly understanding someone else, and I don't like that cut off in my thoughts & motivations that precedes me turning the conversation back to you when I'm semi-vulnerable.

To me, and this may be somewhat childish, my inner world is precious. It is not necessarily loved by me and it can be quite dark, but its alone with me. For some reason, I've always protected it. So... it must be special right? If someone else doesn't find it special its most insulting. I either question what I was protecting or I think that person doesn't deserve access to it.

And I don't think anyone asking "how to get through ENFJ layers" has any dark motive. But I do want to say that I have never been 'tricked' by anyone into divulging something that was later used against me. I can tell what you want the information for & how well you'll remember it, usually well before I say anything important. I've actually used this to build relationships with people who wanted to get closer but for reasons of insecurity & not necessarily genuine connection. With these people, I can sometimes find a way to tell them about myself in a way that assures they won't really retain the details, but they'll know we've connected.

 

[Glycerine]

I can't read ENFJ well and that's what I like! I can tell there's a lot there; it's all coded to ENFP. sometimes I feel like the ENFJ must have a motive or expectation assigned to an ENFP for a reason that they want to know the person. A solid ENFP's intentions are pure! I swear!

I just see ENFP and ENFJ as each other's strongest motivators. I think it's awesome.

Oh sorry for misinterpreting that and for coming off abrasive. School has just been stressful for the past month...had no idea what was I was supposed to learn for a month because of a sub and then he got injured. We ended up getting twice as much work.

I have the hardest time reading ENFPs as well. They are "good" crazy.

 

[Ethelred the Unready]

I can only second what most ENFJ's have said. Getting under all those layers isn't easy and it takes time - at least in my case.

I must feel that the other person is genuinely interested in getting to know the real me. Also I must trust this person. I've been hurt before and I do get hurt very easily by what people say (I know, that's one of the most irritating ENFJ's traits ). Therefore I have to be sure the other person won't hurt me, won't laugh at my weird inner life and won't gossip about it to others.

And even then it's not the case of getting straight through to my inner core. My layers peel away slowly and one at a time. And my radar is fine tuned to the other person's reactions. If I sense they starting to think I'm weird or that they could possibly turn my words against me - I quickly withdraw, close off and turn everything into a joke. And that's it. The end. After that this person can attack my layers with an axe but won't go anywhere. My layers can really harden into concrete.

I sometimes think I resemble a Japanese sword - harder outer jacket of steel wrapped around a softer inner core of steel.

 

[Neutralpov]

I think in relation to ENFP we appear less open because of the emphasis on emotional connection. I also love ENFPs but the tendency for some I have met to dive headlong into anything resembling an emotional connection without being rational per say about it makes me leery. But in relation to other MBTI types we are ridiculously open. I know with those who I trust I am an open book except for the things I don't even see coming or if I am not in tune with my feelings. Then it can surprise people because it hits me in an aha moment.

 

[skylights]

If, through this point, you are giving off external signs that you value my memories / feelings, I will keep going. Once I get to my favorite cat getting hit by my neighbor, and your eyes are wandering. SLAM! We'll start talking about you, and you'll never get anything more from my internal world until things change.

This is far more frustrating for me than it is for the person trying to know, I'm sure. Its annoying that most people seem to be completely uninterested in truly understanding someone else, and I don't like that cut off in my thoughts & motivations that precedes me turning the conversation back to you when I'm semi-vulnerable.

To me, and this may be somewhat childish, my inner world is precious. It is not necessarily loved by me and it can be quite dark, but its alone with me. For some reason, I've always protected it. So... it must be special right? If someone else doesn't find it special its most insulting. I either question what I was protecting or I think that person doesn't deserve access to it.

And I don't think anyone asking "how to get through ENFJ layers" has any dark motive. But I do want to say that I have never been 'tricked' by anyone into divulging something that was later used against me. I can tell what you want the information for & how well you'll remember it, usually well before I say anything important. I've actually used this to build relationships with people who wanted to get closer but for reasons of insecurity & not necessarily genuine connection. With these people, I can sometimes find a way to tell them about myself in a way that assures they won't really retain the details, but they'll know we've connected.

respectfully, i have to disagree that this is more frustrating for you guys than for others

i absolutely acknowledge that ENFJs are extraordinary readers of people, but you guys are also very hard to get to know, perhaps more so than is necessarily warranted. when i was first getting to know my good ENFJ friend - and even still sometimes, when it's a complex or sensitive issue we're discussing - i feel that i have to be extraordinarily careful about what i say and how i say it, or i get closed out. much of the time i do not understand why - i think it is quite obvious to you guys why you're doing this, but to me, it seems confusing and sometimes hurtful. for myself, and i do believe with most NFPs, there is an underlying assumption that whenever someone opens up, it is special and to be respected and listened to - in fact, i find people more and more interesting the more they open up. with a good friend it is even more fascinating and endearing.

but, when she suddenly shuts me out, there must be something that my ENFJ friend reads into me that i don't know is there. lately i've been wondering if maybe it is that she is reading that i don't know that i am supposed to hold this information in strictest confidence - it's very rare that i would tend to share anyone's private inner information, but to be fair i also am not always listening with the pointed intention to not disclose the information either. it's actually kind of fascinating to me, toast, that you're so aware of how people intend to use the information you share... i don't think of protecting myself in that light (instead, i tend to read Fi cues to know if a person is "safe" to share with or not).

my point being not that ENFJs are all overly cautious, but that i think in being so hypervigilant you run the risk of prematurely cutting others out, when there are means of bridging the gap between you (for instance, affirming with the other person that they know this is very special, private information that is not shared with just anyone). it may be frustrating to you that many people seem uninterested in really understanding you, but the ENFJs i know also seem to require extraordinary amounts of effort to get to know in a deep capacity... in a lot of ways you guys seem to push people away on a deep level while connecting warmly on a friendly social level.

though, the fact that you make yourselves so warm and charismatic and yet so icy and mysterious is what makes you so interesting to me

all of this said, what are some ways other types can make you feel safe and like we are interested in you? from experience, i know asking questions to clarify, encouraging the other person to talk about themself in conversation (i know this seems very obvious to you guys, but it seems strange to me... if i'm taking the time to talk with you then of course i want you to share...), paying attention to what is important to you and using that information to help you later (eg a very personalized bday gift), keeping eye contact with you, and keeping your information very private but speaking positively about you to others. what else?

I can't read ENFJ well and that's what I like! I can tell there's a lot there; it's all coded to ENFP. [...]

[...] I have the hardest time reading ENFPs as well. They are "good" crazy.

 

[ikia]

I kind of put "little things out there" to see how people react before putting weirder more personal stuff out. If you dont react well to the little stuff, then theres pretty much no chance I'm ever going to reveal my weirder and more personal stuff. Your loss :steam:

I agree with this. I've once told my friend that we're like cats. We will open a little, see how you react, whether you're safe to be near, whether you reciprocate/show that you want to know us, and then run away, so there's this sort of tango.. until we're fully sure by your actions (actions means a lot to us! if you keep loving us, we can't refuse u), then we'd become like the kitten which you can never get rid of
trust is <b>very</b> important to us.

 

[ExAstrisSpes]

I haven't really seen this point brought up, so here it is. It's not enough to just show interest, you have to have the right intent also. If I get a whiff that someone is just trying to "get to know me better" for more than the sake of the friendship, then I close off pretty quickly and throw up some Fe smoke in defense.

On the other hand, I'm honestly surprised that people would think I'm hard to read. I think I'm notoriously easy to read and get to know; I'm pretty liberal with talking about my hobbies, and feel somewhat "naked" emotionally. (I can attest I have no military 'bearing').

I will agree that simply loving us and being emotionally present makes it really, really difficult to refuse you. We definitely pick up when someone loves us for us, even if you may not know us very well. And that makes it feel safe to open up.