Fiona Apple

[vBNinja]

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Am I using this subforum right?

 

[Forever_Jung]

Oh, so I wasn't supposed to post threads here. That's fine. Where did the replies go, though?

 

[Flâneuse]

INFP 4w5, definitely. Maybe 4w5-6-8w9 sx/sp

 

[atlascatcher]

4w5 yes, but INFJ rather than INFP. She's like the socionics INFp/IEI poster child.

 

[small.wonder]

I just watched this other video of her, which I feel gives a slightly different impression (it's long enough to get a pretty good feel). She refers to herself as "such a compulsive doubter" and seems a bit more laid back and lazy in speech than I would expect from a 4w5-- she often doesn't pronounce the "g" in "ing" ending words ("makin', "talkin", etc.). Not that anyone could tell from a video alone, but I do think there are 6 and 9 influnces if she is 4w5 (469).

 

[Animal]

7w6!!!!

I've spent all week thinking about her type, so it's a nice coincidence to stumble on this thread right now. It will be even better if I can articulate this neatly..

First of all.. She expresses her shame but she also makes fun of it at the same time. She never seems to wallow in it. Let's take this song, for instance, which I used to think was 4ish, before I typed correctly at 4 or understood the essence of the type.

People might say "Oh she's expressing shame and being a bad person" - but this is a 7's line to 1. Listen to the lyrics.. "I keep living this day like the next will never come" - this is a pure expression of 7w6. "I've done wrong and I wanna suffer for my sin" - 7 self-punishing, line to 1. This is a very 7ish, Take-what-you-want strategy. Not 4 at all. She makes a mockery of her shame. It's different for 4s. Here is what a 4 looks like:

"Poor me, I'm not good enough"

"Please rescue me, I need someone to understand me"

Those two videos are explicitly type 4 expressions. Now contrast this to Fiona Apple's mockery of her own shame and pain. The expressions on her face.. it's an expression of her own boredom.. haha.

She is whimsical and hilarious and pleasure-seeking.

And here she talks about how she never finishes songs and works better with deadlines. And her energy on stage is very "fun" ... she's very much an "entertainer" which 7s often are, rather than a "watch me suffer and feel with me" energy like 4s.

 

[Animal]

She refers to herself as "such a compulsive doubter" and seems a bit more laid back and lazy in speech than I would expect from a 4w5-- she often doesn't pronounce the "g" in "ing" ending words ("makin', "talkin", etc.). Not that anyone could tell from a video alone, but I do think there are 6 and 9 influnces if she is 4w5 (469).

I had considered 6 and 4 for her previously (I heard the compulsive doubter thing too, on another interview) but after obsessing over this for a week and comparing her to actual 6s and 7s (lol) I feel like it's a 6 wing. Also this is a really interesting observation about how she's lazy in speech and only heightens my 7w6 case because 7s are very "I'm fine just as I am" and just spit it out there. I loved this observation.

 

[Mane]

If I am correct interpreting that "not about love" is not quite herself but her parody of an SO critique & response her (Taking the clip's depiction literally), real or imagined in her head, combined with her terrified reactions at the possibility of being looked over the shoulder, and how in the interviews her approach is not to make her insanity her own unique cross to bear but to call out the rest of the world for hiding there's. She is not isolate her identity based on the crazy like a 4 would, she's declaring we're all made from the same clay of crazy, this is all a lot more fitting for a 7w6.

+1 [MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION]

 

[Animal]

If I am correct interpreting that "not about love" is not quite herself but her parody of an SO critique & response her (Taking the clip's depiction literally), real or imagined in her head, combined with her terrified reactions at the possibility of being looked over the shoulder, and how in the interviews her approach is not to make her insanity her own unique cross to bear but to call out the rest of the world for hiding there's. She is not isolate her identity based on the crazy like a 4 would, she's declaring we're all made from the same clay of crazy, this is all a lot more fitting for a 7w6.

+1 @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/members/17911.html" target="_blank">Animal</a>

Along these same lines, this song is a perfect expression of 7w6 SX - - - - PERFECT. She is singing about how she is being seen as "irresponsible" by someone else, but really she has her feet on the ground and has trouble to cause and she can't be stifled. It sounds like she's grappling with how this person stifles her by viewing her a certain way. This is a 7 SX expression if i have heard one in my entire life.. Don't know why I didn't think of it yesterday..

 

[Tiny Dancer]

+1 to Animal. Fiona is a sexual 7 to the bone.

 

[SeaSoap2]

I don't know who she is, so I can't vote by default - but maybe, women I've seen often turn out to get more attention, but it can be a long term deficit if you can't solve problems independently.

Okay, maybe I sound means, but it's just the truth. Being friendly is about more than having a good appearance, since you also should be fun for yourself, despite the "rules".

 

[FemMecha]

I voted INFP. She is an example of a brilliant Fi-dom. These are the lyrics to "Never is a Promise"

You'll never see
The courage I know
Its colors' richness
Won't appear within your view
I'll never glow,
The way that you glow
Your presence dominates the judgments made on you

But as the scenery grows,
I see in different lights
The shades and shadows
Undulate in my perception
My feelings swell and stretch
I see from greater heights
I understand what I am still to proud to mention
-to you

You'll say you understand
But you don't understand
You'll say you'd never give up
Seeing eye to eye
But never is a promise
And you can't afford to lie

You'll never touch
These things that I hold
The skin of my emotions
Lies beneath my own
You'll never feel
The heat of this soul
My fever burns me deeper than I've ever shown
To you

You'll say don't fear your dreams
It's easier than it seems
You'll say you'd never let me fall
From hopes so high
But never is a promise
And you can't afford to lie

You'll never live the life that I live
I'll never live the life
That wakes me in the night
You'll never hear the message I give
You'll say it looks as though I might
Give up this fight

But as the scenery grows,
I see in different lights
The shades and shadows
Undulate in my perception
My feelings swell and stretch
I see from greater heights
I realize what I am now too smart to mention
To you

You'll say you understand,
You'll never understand
I'll say I'll never wake up
Knowing how or why
I don't know what to believe in
You don't know who I am
You'll say I need appeasing
When I start to cry
But never is a promise
And I'll never need a lie

 

[grey_beard]

7w6!!!!

I've spent all week thinking about her type, so it's a nice coincidence to stumble on this thread right now. It will be even better if I can articulate this neatly..

First of all.. She expresses her shame but she also makes fun of it at the same time. She never seems to wallow in it. Let's take this song, for instance, which I used to think was 4ish, before I typed correctly at 4 or understood the essence of the type.

People might say "Oh she's expressing shame and being a bad person" - but this is a 7's line to 1. Listen to the lyrics.. "I keep living this day like the next will never come" - this is a pure expression of 7w6. "I've done wrong and I wanna suffer for my sin" - 7 self-punishing, line to 1. This is a very 7ish, Take-what-you-want strategy. Not 4 at all. She makes a mockery of her shame. It's different for 4s. Here is what a 4 looks like:

"Poor me, I'm not good enough"

"Please rescue me, I need someone to understand me"

Those two videos are explicitly type 4 expressions. Now contrast this to Fiona Apple's mockery of her own shame and pain. The expressions on her face.. it's an expression of her own boredom.. haha.

She is whimsical and hilarious and pleasure-seeking.

And here she talks about how she never finishes songs and works better with deadlines. And her energy on stage is very "fun" ... she's very much an "entertainer" which 7s often are, rather than a "watch me suffer and feel with me" energy like 4s.

You know, as an INTJ, I hate to admit ever being anything other that 200% correct -- but you may have a valid point.
(Realistically -- and this is *NOT* to 'save face' on my part): one must allow for the possibility that some of her behaviour is stagecraft : I know she is quite independent of labels, producers, and all that, compared to many other artists, but still, there is something to be said for the fact that each different medium in the aerts, imposes its own constraints...

Consider yourself *highly* commended.
(Translated: I think I was *wrong.)

(brightens)...what do you think her tritype is?

...oh, and Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Animal]

You know, as an INTJ, I hate to admit ever being anything other that 200% correct -- but you may have a valid point.
(Realistically -- and this is *NOT* to 'save face' on my part: one must allow for the possibility that some of her behaviour is stagecraft : I know she is quite independent of labels, producers, and all that, compared to many other artists, but still, there is something to be said for the fact that each different medium in the aerts, imposes its )own constraints...

Consider yourself *highly* commended.
(Translated: I think I was *wrong.)

(brightens)...what do you think her tritype is?

...oh, and Happy Thanksgiving!

Thaanks Highly appreciated

I've since changed my mind about Jewel, but other than that I still agree with myself on this previous post. I think Jewel is more likely a 269 in some order. 4s would be Marilyn Manson, Jeff Martin, PJ Harvey, Kurt Cobain, maybe Jeff Buckley and Elliott Smith.


The thing is.. I pay close attention only to certain musicians. So I don't have a long list of 4s, but I know that Fiona Apple is not a 4. 7w6 makes the most sense for her though there's a vague 6w7 case. Jewel, I typed her based on limited material and after I looked deeper I was banging my head on the wall for a hasty decision. Jeff Martin, I'm still debating his type but nothing makes sense to me except 4. (I don't say that lightly - he is my #1 favorite.) I'm certain that Marilyn MAnson is a 4 however. I read his book, listened to him for years, etc.

 

[brainheart]

I used to think INFP 4w5 and attributed differences with me to tritype but after reading more interviews it made me realize she's like a Ne-explosion coupled with head-type energy.

I find this interview particularly illuminative: Hiding Out With Fiona Apple, Musical Hermit -- Vulture

So much Ne and 6/7 cusp (My tendency is to pick 6w7 over 7w6). No INFP makes a conscious effort to 'try' and feel what others are feeling. It's inherent.

I can't believe I used to type her and Elliott Smith the same (an INFP 4w5 sx/sp 469, [MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION]). Maybe just because same tritype-

 

[pinkgraffiti]

Thaanks Highly appreciated

I've since changed my mind about Jewel, but other than that I still agree with myself on this previous post. I think Jewel is more likely a 269 in some order. 4s would be Marilyn Manson, Jeff Martin, PJ Harvey, Kurt Cobain, maybe Jeff Buckley and Elliott Smith.


The thing is.. I pay close attention only to certain musicians. So I don't have a long list of 4s, but I know that Fiona Apple is not a 4. 7w6 makes the most sense for her though there's a vague 6w7 case. Jewel, I typed her based on limited material and after I looked deeper I was banging my head on the wall for a hasty decision. Jeff Martin, I'm still debating his type but nothing makes sense to me except 4. (I don't say that lightly - he is my #1 favorite.) I'm certain that Marilyn MAnson is a 4 however. I read his book, listened to him for years, etc.

Yes.Im surprised about Fiona Apple being a 7, but you might be right. However, Jewel, as much as I like her music, her whining makes me roll and eyes and i don't do that to type 4s nor INFPs, so seriously she must be something different. i mean, she doesn't *touch* me in a way those other artists you talked about - jeff buckley, kurt cobain - do. PS PJ Harvey also doesn't. I'm pretty sure she isn't a 4!? for some reason i always saw her as a 7...(this is all coming from intuition, it might be a load of bollocks, but my intuition works pretty ok 90% of the time)

 

[Animal]

Yes.Im surprised about Fiona Apple being a 7, but you might be right. However, Jewel, as much as I like her music, her whining makes me roll and eyes and i don't do that to type 4s nor INFPs, so seriously she must be something different. i mean, she doesn't *touch* me in a way those other artists you talked about - jeff buckley, kurt cobain - do. PS PJ Harvey also doesn't. I'm pretty sure she isn't a 4!? for some reason i always saw her as a 7...(this is all coming from intuition, it might be a load of bollocks, but my intuition works pretty ok 90% of the time)

She's not a 4. Sorry. I take it back. It was a stupid hasty typing. I have thought about it since. I'd say 269 tritype in some order.

*hides*

 

[OrangeAppled]

I think she's a 4 INFP still.

I don't see why 4s would not be open with shame - that's trademark 4 actually. The sx 4 is the angriest 4, the most scathing, almost counter-shame in wearing it so openly and wanting to attack people for "making" them feel that way. Her lyrics seem to embody this.

7s seem waaaaay less prone to open shame - they are called the Narcissistic type after all (Naranjo). They don't like to broadcast their negative qualities or they champion them if they do. They have a "this is not so bad" attitude where they refuse to be judged. The 4 is angry at being judged, but they truly do feel the shame and internalize it as identity.

Any nervous energy she has at times seems drug-related, honestly. She's not well emotionally or physically, and that throws off typing someone.

I do retract my previous idea that she is 4w5. She is too open for that typing, even though she is supposedly rather reclusive at times. 4w3 is very much a dramatic performer though. 4w3 Morrissey is soooo dramatic on stage, ripping his shirt off, clutching his heart....

 

[brainheart]

Any nervous energy she has at times seems drug-related, honestly. She's not well emotionally or physically, and that throws off typing someone.

I do retract my previous idea that she is 4w5. She is too open for that typing, even though she is supposedly rather reclusive at times. 4w3 is very much a dramatic performer though. 4w3 Morrissey is soooo dramatic on stage, ripping his shirt off, clutching his heart....

Good points. Aside from drug use, she has OCD and she seems very manic to me. If she's a 4 I'd also agree on the 4w3. 4w3s (if they are ENFP sx/so) throw me because they are a very different kind of 4. I add the ENFP because I know an INFJ 4w3 sx/so who still seems textbook four to me.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

I think she's a 4 INFP still.

I don't see why 4s would not be open with shame - that's trademark 4 actually. The sx 4 is the angriest 4, the most scathing, almost counter-shame in wearing it so openly and wanting to attack people for "making" them feel that way. Her lyrics seem to embody this.

7s seem waaaaay less prone to open shame - they are called the Narcissistic type after all (Naranjo). They don't like to broadcast their negative qualities or they champion them if they do. They have a "this is not so bad" attitude where they refuse to be judged. The 4 is angry at being judged, but they truly do feel the shame and internalize it as identity.

Any nervous energy she has at times seems drug-related, honestly. She's not well emotionally or physically, and that throws off typing someone.

I do retract my previous idea that she is 4w5. She is too open for that typing, even though she is supposedly rather reclusive at times. 4w3 is very much a dramatic performer though. 4w3 Morrissey is soooo dramatic on stage, ripping his shirt off, clutching his heart....

yes! 4w3! i see it!

also, stop enumerating the shortcomings of my type (7), it was too close to the bone, you made me blush. stick to your type, thanks