Fi and Problems with Authority

[Trunks]

As for me, i have doubts and uncertain about them.

 

[RaptorWizard]

No, but which type is? An ESTP might try to beat up a cop, I suppose.

ISTP, INTP, and INTJ. ISTJ is too traditional, and extraverts and feelers are too conformist.

 

[wolfy]

I am generally pretty cynical about authority figures, rules and regulations. Generally I follow laws due to being cursed with the ability to perceive negative repercussions when not. The way I perceive authority tends to drive me away from team work towards individual work. From generalist to specialist. Good in some ways, bad in others.

 

[Mal12345]

ISTP, INTP, and INTJ. ISTJ is too traditional, and extraverts and feelers are too conformist.

An ISTJ can set his or her own "traditions" that fly in the face of established external authority.

 

[Cellmold]

I dislike it when people open their mouths and words come out, it's like watching a living potato speak and their tongue is a leaf of lettuce. It's why I hate talking myself and why im soooo quiet, because I can feel my lettuce tongue boinging round and I feel an urge to....BITE IT!

A pox on communication and a thumb in the eye for tongues!

 

[RaptorWizard]

Even though it is often thinking types that are most rigidly enforcing the rules, ironically it is also thinking types that are most often rigidly resisting the rules! I think it has to do with thinkers generally although not as a strict rule having a lower agreeableness level, since they strive on conflict rather than harmony.

 

[SoraMayhem]

feelers are too conformist.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

you need to hang out with some different F types.

 

[Seymour]

Even though it is often thinking types that are most rigidly enforcing the rules, ironically it is also thinking types that are most often rigidly resisting the rules! I think it has to do with thinkers generally although not as a strict rule having a lower agreeableness level, since they strive on conflict rather than harmony.

I found this to be true when comparing my INTP twin brother (although I think he's both more S and more E than I am). He would resist authority directly when it was incorrect or stupid, while I was much more likely to (sometimes passive-aggressively, I admit) try to fly underneath the radar.

When it came to matters of ill-intent and those that intruded upon personal definition, then I was the one who became more oppositional and my twin would just shrug and give the appearance of minimal compliance.

 

[CzeCze]

I've noticed that IXFPs have particular issues with authority, namely, being told what to do in an authoritarian tone of voice, obeying traffic laws, and other things of this nature. Since every function has a problem with its inferior it occurred to me that the Fi-dom must be showing its Te inferior by having problems with authority figures and external laws.

I think all types have a problem with being told what to do in a boss wayl. its just that interpretations of bossy vary.

 

[Lark]

I think all types have a problem with being told what to do in a boss wayl. its just that interpretations of bossy vary.

I agree with that, I think Fidelia posted some good stuff on this topic aways back too.

I think perhaps its more evident in an emotional response way when it is a reaction by a feeling dominant individual. Although to be honest I think that most peoples responses to authority may be different if they truly realised that they are authorities too to others, so while in one context they may be subject to it in another they will be subjecting others to authority or be required to. Or maybe not. I've seen all kinds of weird reactions by people ambivalent about authority to being placed in a position of authority, the full spectrum of authoritarianism to abdication.

 

[Mal12345]

I think all types have a problem with being told what to do in a boss wayl. its just that interpretations of bossy vary.

My own boss appears to enjoy being bossed around. Imagine this ESTJ guy saying "ok..." to an order in a subservient way with his head down. It's almost comical to observe.

 

[raindancing]

My own boss appears to enjoy being bossed around. Imagine this ESTJ guy saying "ok..." to an order in a subservient way with his head down. It's almost comical to observe.

One ESTJ I know responds very well to what I would consider being bossed around. It's how he treats other people, maybe that has something to do with it? It's like he only respects someone who can boss him around.
I know an ISTJ (my mother-in-law) who is similar, if she perceives the person as having more competence than her in a given area. Then it's like she wants to be bossed around. Like it's a relief. Conversely, if she sees herself as having more competence (rightly or wrongly), she will boss you around. Ohhh her and my INTP husband


(Have to note, another ESTJ (female this time), doesn't take any bossing well)

 

[Mal12345]

One ESTJ I know responds very well to what I would consider being bossed around. It's how he treats other people, maybe that has something to do with it? It's like he only respects someone who can boss him around.

That plays into being anti-Fi, which is the topic of my latest thread in this series. Te-doms hate that part of themselves, seeing it as weakness. And they hate weakness.

I know an ISTJ (my mother-in-law) who is similar, if she perceives the person as having more competence than her in a given area. Then it's like she wants to be bossed around. Like it's a relief.

Even the most routinized individuals need an occasional break from the routine. It's like taking a vacation. And of course for these competent, valued, and hard-working people, every vacation becomes a well-deserved vacation.

Conversely, if she sees herself as having more competence (rightly or wrongly), she will boss you around. Ohhh her and my INTP husband

(Have to note, another ESTJ (female this time), doesn't take any bossing well)

Sometimes an ESTJ has a high amount of INFP or ISFP.

 

[Chaotic Harmony]

I've never had an attitude towards any cop that has pulled me over....and back in the day I used to have quite the lead foot. Anymore, I'm constantly on my INTJ husband for tailgating people and speeding. I'm not entirely sure I'm completely understanding what you are getting at. I don't have a problem with authority.... What I do have a problem with is people with authority being rude and hateful for no reason. Like... If I were to get pulled over and I provide all the necessary documents without giving any attitude and the cop comes back and makes the snide comment "I bet you thought you were getting a ticket, but I'm just giving you a warning" I consider that unnecessary attitude.

 

[Mal12345]

I've never had an attitude towards any cop that has pulled me over....and back in the day I used to have quite the lead foot. Anymore, I'm constantly on my INTJ husband for tailgating people and speeding. I'm not entirely sure I'm completely understanding what you are getting at. I don't have a problem with authority.... What I do have a problem with is people with authority being rude and hateful for no reason. Like... If I were to get pulled over and I provide all the necessary documents without giving any attitude and the cop comes back and makes the snide comment "I bet you thought you were getting a ticket, but I'm just giving you a warning" I consider that unnecessary attitude.

My wife is an ISFP and I can read her anti-Te attitude plain as day. But no, she doesn't get angry at cops when she gets pulled over. She's more of an introjector.

So tell me, do you yourself have Te-inferior? How does it manifest? Have you ever looked into the idea or given it even a moment's thought?

 

[PeaceBaby]

Afterwards I wondered why this argument had happened and why I felt so angry about it. It was because he had tried to change my opinion as to what was the right creative choice. Within the bounds of work environment he had set, I felt I was within my rights to defend my opinion - yet his behaviour implied that I was free to an opinion, as long as it matched his. The thing is, if he had just told me Te-style to do it a particular way, I would have got on with it, without ceremony. I might have been disappointed but would have accepted his decision. It was when he tried to convince me that I was wrong in order to get me to change tack, that we ran into problems.

Yes, I think that's a key there.

Even the "best path" decisions that Te (and Fe) types think are objective, are in reality not. Every decision is subjective. Therefore my subjective opinion on what to do next is just as valid as anyone else's opinion, despite how objective (or more objective) they think their opinions are!

Since most Fi doms are pro "live and let live" it's this arbitrary pushing of subjective opinion flaunted as "objective" fact that's more annoying than simply "rebelling against authority". Even worse is the subjective opinion propped up on other "facts" and paraded as "we have to do this because data points X, Y and Z say we should". (Admittedly, that's how to convince a dom Te type, and what makes me waver and feel indecisive about my instincts, but when the gut feeling tells you it's the wrong decision, time to go digging to find out why.)

The OP to me is too simplistic.

I am not "bossing" my ESTJ hubs around when he asks me for direction on what chores need to get done on a Saturday morning. Yet I am uncomfortable at those times being directive ... my PERCEPTION is that of being bossy, when to him, it's just a normal way of speaking, and he does not feel I am making him do what he doesn't want to do.

 

[Chaotic Harmony]

My wife is an ISFP and I can read her anti-Te attitude plain as day. But no, she doesn't get angry at cops when she gets pulled over. She's more of an introjector.

So tell me, do you yourself have Te-inferior? How does it manifest? Have you ever looked into the idea or given it even a moment's thought?

Apparently not, because I'm not sure what you just asked me... I'm still trying to learn more about Te and Ti, Fe and Fi, Ne and Ni, and Se and Si... So I'm not really sure how to answer any of that.

 

[Mal12345]

Apparently not, because I'm not sure what you just asked me... I'm still trying to learn more about Te and Ti, Fe and Fi, Ne and Ni, and Se and Si... So I'm not really sure how to answer any of that.

There's a lot of good testimony mostly from INFPs above in this thread. There's always some exterior motive for reacting to the authoritarian Te-dom type, such as "he's stepping all over my individuality and uniqueness." But I think they are primarily reacting to Te-inferior within their own psyches, and I'm searching for more evidence of the idea that our responses to external "problems" are all in our minds.

This quote is listed under "The Cognitive Functions, Demystified" in the MBTI tutorial section of this forum:

'Te -- Extraverted Thinking. "Hey, work faster, you slacker! You're losing us time and money!" Extraverted Thinking is a blunt function that is results-oriented, much like that angry boss. Extraverted Thinking follows rules to the letter, and uses the most efficient procedure known to work that will get the job done.'

Fi-dom will have none of that. Yes I agree that their external responses to authority will usually be docile. But internally that's not the case.

 

[Chaotic Harmony]

[MENTION=13589]Mal+[/MENTION] Ah, okay... I must have a fairly developed Te then if I'm understanding correctly. "Extraverted Thinking follows rules to the letter, and uses the most efficient procedure known to work that will get the job done." That fits me perfectly at work and at home. I'm the person who pulls the instruction manual and directions out of the box first and starts reading to know exactly what I'm doing.... Meanwhile my INTJ husband is the person who pulls all the parts out and starts trying to put it together.

I think, in regards to your original post... When someone uses an authoritative voice with me... I don't get angry, so much as I tend to feel slightly threatened and like I seriously did something wrong (on the inside)...on the outside I just do what I'm told and try and let it go. Hmm... I'm wondering if my enneatype has anything to do with my reactions considering I hate any kind of conflict.

However, as stated before... I always obey traffic laws and tend to abide by all the rules regardless of how silly I think they are. My husband gets mad at me because lately I've been doing the exact speed limit... I stop at yellow lights instead of flooring it to get through them... I don't know... Maybe if I wasn't in this mindset of "why are we always in such a damn hurry" I might break more traffic laws.

 

[Mal12345]

[MENTION=13589]Mal+[/MENTION] Ah, okay... I must have a fairly developed Te then if I'm understanding correctly. "Extraverted Thinking follows rules to the letter, and uses the most efficient procedure known to work that will get the job done." That fits me perfectly at work and at home. I'm the person who pulls the instruction manual and directions out of the box first and starts reading to know exactly what I'm doing.... Meanwhile my INTJ husband is the person who pulls all the parts out and starts trying to put it together.

I think, in regards to your original post... When someone uses an authoritative voice with me... I don't get angry, so much as I tend to feel slightly threatened and like I seriously did something wrong (on the inside)...on the outside I just do what I'm told and try and let it go. Hmm... I'm wondering if my enneatype has anything to do with my reactions considering I hate any kind of conflict.

However, as stated before... I always obey traffic laws and tend to abide by all the rules regardless of how silly I think they are. My husband gets mad at me because lately I've been doing the exact speed limit... I stop at yellow lights instead of flooring it to get through them... I don't know... Maybe if I wasn't in this mindset of "why are we always in such a damn hurry" I might break more traffic laws.

That was an example. I've long ago stopped expecting people of the same type to be clones of each other.

Yet the traffic laws example still tells you something about motives. Fear of authority can result in either a compliant or an aggressive response. But not an indifferent non-response. Complying with traffic laws is a motive-based behavior. Those motives may be kept out of conscious awareness. But it may have something to do with fear of authority.