[Fi] Fi 101

[Amargith]

Ok peeps, I see tis thread is already going, and I wanna say that I *will* answer, so try not to clutter it up too much while I'm gone, mkay ?

It's New Years Party time however, so make it a good one and I'll see ya all in 2010!

 

[Kalach]

Aw, C'MON!

What is love?


Origin, source of maintenance, nature and character of the object.


Is it different for different types? Is there a core element that is universal? Does it reside in the person or in the person's expressions or somewhere else, an abstract plane removed from, say, sex, maybe?

No, really. There's a lot of discussion on this board--A LOT!--about interactions. So... what is love?




It seemed like a good 101 question, and now I want to know.


Plus, it's a macro-question, a whole of person thing, and discussing it the functions will come into play somewhere and... something about being human... plus everyone's allowed to get away with idiosyncratic definitions, I suppose, and I guess that'll show something about functions. Or something.

 

[Moiety]

My main problem with functions in general is not really the functions themselves, but when people start attaching things every human can do to them. Like empathy, logic, imagination, or being environmentally aware. Reading these "Fi is" and "Te is" and the other threads has me shaking my head at some of the entries, simply because people start going from what these functions ARE to what people that use these functions tend to DO and end up thinking they're the same thing.

I think Fi is a cognitive process that judges all information it gains using personal, emotional, and value based principles as criteria for right vs wrong. These values are subjectively defined and unique to that individual in the sense that they were personally derived, however this doesn't mean these principles are exclusive to that person, nor Fi itself.

Well agreed.

Proteanmix : It's all in how you define empathy I guess. But yes for the most part you are right about Fi I guess.

but others who are looking for solidarity and that sense of shared experience and emotion find them out of touch, not an oasis of calm and strength. That does not make them particularly relatable or someone you feel you can talk to or depend on because their emotional state is so completely divergent from everyone else's and they don't even see it.

That might very well be true but that doesn't have to be a bad thing. We can be out of touch in a sense, but that's because we are deeply individualistic. Don't expect solidarity from me. Ask for it if you want it or wait for me to think of you and give it by my own volition. Fi just doesn't think in terms of society. There is no society. That's why FPs can often be considered irresponsible or marginals. It has everything to do with expectations. But we are not bound by the same rules as Fe users so expectation isn't a factor.

You can negatively frame it as Fi users not being dependable...but at the same time I'm pretty sure you'll find that when the shit hits the fan FPs can be very caring people.


I'm very unapologetic when it comes to this. I expect the same treatment Ts get. People shouldn't look at the letter F and expect a good samaritan. You can be caring with or without F. Feelings are just as right and wrong as Thoughts. You can't help but to think and you can't help but to feel.

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm very unapologetic when it comes to this. I expect the same treatment Ts get. People shouldn't look at the letter F and expect a good samaritan. You can be caring with or without F. Feelings are just as right and wrong as Thoughts. You can't help but to think and you can't help but to feel.

Wait, why is T being dragged into this again? Did we do something?

...Anyway, I agree with your comments here.

 

[sculpting]

Aw, C'MON!
What is love?

clutter clutter clutter... Poor Amar.. It's only noon here...we are bored. (Happy new year!)

I see the potential in myself for two types of love in a relationship.

one is Te based-It is loyalty, resolution, commitment, support, staying true even when times are rough. Understanding that emo can be very momentary and fading. Loving the person for what they are and accepting all imperfections as part of the package but being willing to challenge them to grow. Enjoying their company good and bad. Fully understanding their faults. It is a partnership. Pragmatic, realistic, accepting, understanding.

This was how I loved my ISTP.

The other is Fi based. It is freaky, wobbly, overwhelming and terrifying. Tornadic and amazingly intense buckets of focused emo rays. Incinerating if used on an individual. Blending to become one united thing with that other person. Diluted 100X I use it on the masses.

I think-based on the definition of love questions in the relationship sections, that Ti and Fe may differ in what love feels like...Just my guess based upon what they have posted there.

But I bet Fi/Te could combine to form a flavor of love with distinct physiological sensations and interpretations. So maybe Fe/Ti love is another flavor of love.

I wonder what FeFiTeTi love is like?

 

[proteanmix]

To everyone who has left me rep comments and replied in thread thank you, I appreciate your input.

I'm mulling this over in my mind...I admit I didn't really expect Fi users to agree with me!

 

[Moiety]

Wait, why is T being dragged into this again? Did we do something?

Expectations Jennifer...expectations. A T does a nice gesture towards someone and he gets +10 rep points and is concretely credited for doing it. A F does the same nice gesture and people analyze what was behind that gesture and subjectively discredit the F. Unfair!!!Waah.

 

[Glycerine]

Do we really need another thread on Fi? I feel like this topic has long beaten the dead horse. All I know is I really like most Fi-doms, IRL and a few on this forum. From everything I have learned about Fi is it's about individuality, personal/self valuations/ moral codes/ what one believes, and it feels emotions in gradients and feels things deeply. To some outsiders, it can come off "very selfish and self-centered" but it can also come off as kind and caring. It's as cool as Fe in my book.

 

[runvardh]

Eh, there's a point where even some of us get tired of talking about ourselves... *kitty glare at Amar*

 

[Kalach]

OK, here's my honest observation. Forgive me if it sounds hostile because that is not my intention.

When reviewing the "Fi is" thread this is the picture that struck me as most accurate about Fi:

And to be honest, this pic disturbed me at the same time I felt it to be the most accurate. Those emo pics I was like OK, alright.

It scared me because this is how out of touch with everyone Fi can be and I hardly see how that's empathetic. And yes, I want Fi users to admit this is something that people often encounter when dealing with Fi! It's not an isolated, unnatural, or rare occurence. My reality does not align with what Fi users are portraying on the forum about how helplessly empathetic they feel.

I have seen NFPs go into their happy bubble and be completely uncaring or oblivious to everyone else because they feel fine. That is the complete opposite of empathy. But I do see the positives in that because they do seem somewhat impervious to all the stress others feel for their own well-being (which I wish I had a greater ability for), but others who are looking for solidarity and that sense of shared experience and emotion find them out of touch, not an oasis of calm and strength. That does not make them particularly relatable or someone you feel you can talk to or depend on because their emotional state is so completely divergent from everyone else's and they don't even see it.

This is assessment is from my professional experience in working with NFPs in leadership positions, colleagues and past personal experience. I work in a very feeler-dominated organization because of the nature of the work. If my immediate work environment was more empathetic I'd be a much happier employee. I'm in the process of moving past this by adjusting my expectations to lessen my own personal disappointment.

The reason why I find this offensive is because in my professional life the people who do this are grown women (50+) and for the most part I would say are what you would call well-adjusted and "nice" people. I'm not going to give the easy out of saying they're immature or haven't learned how to use their Fi. This is not aberrant behavior from NFPs. I'm not saying it's the norm, but it's not unusual or something like Halley's Comet that passes by the earth every 75 years. It is quite typical in the same way that Fe can often be overbearing, coercive, and unthinkingly normative.

I wish people would stop claiming one set of traits (the positive) are more likely than the other. Fi users (or maybe I should confine this to NFPs) are just as likely to be oblivious to everyone (and in their own happy bubble as that picture suggests) as they are helplessly empathetic towards everyone. To claim otherwise is disingenuous and untruthful.

Is this ^ Fe being directive?

I said elsewhere that I know how Te is directive, it gets combined with Fi to create a consciousness of the world out there in which things running counter to Te conclusions are negatively evaluated--upsetting, stupid, tiresome, wasteful, boring, irritating, hurtful, dangerous, etc--and thus motivated, I seek to follow the Te, and (presumably only where appropriate) urge others to do so too. That seems to account for the reputation of most TJs.

Fe does the same thing, but more immediately? Perhaps structured by Ti checks and balances? (Ti makes it a personal decision, Fe alone would be impersonal, though evaluated, judgment?)


******


I saw a quote somewhere:

"Love is friendship set on fire."

 

[OrangeAppled]

(Sorry if this ignores the OP's request, but I've never been one for rules )

I really enjoy Jung's description - the original description of introverted feeling. It hit home for me more than any other description, particularly because it does not sugarcoat it. It obviously doesn't describe a full individual, but rather a part of a person who has that function as their dominant one. Such a person it describes would be very imbalanced otherwise.

I personally think that Fi is not only a value system, but also a source of ideas, and I see mention of that in Jung's writing. That makes sense, because many Fi users hold beliefs that are disconnected from their community, that seem to come from nowhere but their own reasoning. I think this is also partly why Fi-doms tend to lean towards the arts.

Some highlights for me on Fi as a function according to Jung:

It is extremely difficult to give an intellectual account of the introverted feeling process, or even an approximate description of it...

It is a feeling which seems to devalue the object, and it therefore manifests itself for the most part negatively. The existence of positive feeling can be inferred only indirectly.

It is continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but which it has seen in a kind of vision. It glides unheedingly over all objects that do not fit with its aim. It strives after inner intensity, for which the objects serve at most as stimulus.

The primordial images are, of course, just as much ideas as feelings. Fundamental ideas, ideas like God, freedom, and immortality, are just as much feeling-values as they are significant ideas.

[Fi] demands a more than ordinary descriptive or artistic ability before the real wealth of this feeling can be even approximately presented or communicated to the world. If subjective thinking can be understood only with difficulty because of its detachment, this is true in an even higher degree of subjective feeling. In order to communicate with others, introverted feeling has to find an external form not only acceptable to itself, but capable of also arousing parallel feeling in them.

Feeling progressively emancipates itself from the object and creates for itself a freedom of action and conscience that is purely subjective, and may even renounce all traditional values.

Some highlights for me on the Fi-dom type according to Jung:

Their outward demeanor is harmonious and inconspicuous, giving an impression of pleasing repose, or of sympathetic response, with no desire to affect others, to impress, influence, or change them in any way.

If this outward aspect is more pronounced, it arouses a suspicion of indifference and coldness.....

There is little effort to respond to the real emotions of the other person, which tend to be damped and rebuffed, or to put it more aptly, are 'cooled off' by a negative value judgment. Although there is a constant readiness for a peaceful and harmonious co-existence, strangers are shown no touch of amiability, no gleam of responding warmth, but are met with apparent indifference or a repelling coldness. Often they are made to feel entirely superfluous.

Any stormy emotion, however, will be struck down with murderous coldness, unless it happens to catch the woman on her unconscious side - that is, unless it hits her feelings by arousing a primordial image. In that case, she simply feels paralyzed for the moment, and this in due course invariably produces an even more obstinate resistance which will hit the other person in his most vulnerable spot.

Since this type appears rather cold and reserved, it might seem on a superficial view that such women have no feelings at all. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, their feelings are intensive rather than extensive....

It may, perhaps, break out in some extravagant form, leading to some astounding act of an almost heroic character... To the outside world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this intensive sympathy looks like coldness, because it usually does nothing visible...

But the underlying, real object of this feeling is only dimly divined by the normal type herself. It may express itself in a secret religiosity anxiously shielded from profane eyes, or in intimate poetic forms that are kept equally safeguarded from profane eyes...

...in the normal type, the tendency to overpower or coerce the other person with her secret feelings rarely plays a disturbing role, and never leads to a serious attempt of this kind...

 

[BlueScreen]

It is a feeling which seems to devalue the object, and it therefore manifests itself for the most part negatively. The existence of positive feeling can be inferred only indirectly.

True and an interesting point. Fi destroys to create. When posed with a question like, "how can we help society and understand it?", my first action is to tear it to pieces. Not a logical break down either, just complete destruction of any merit or positive view of it that my mind has. Why? Somewhere in my mind there is the belief that if I hold any bias toward something instinctively I cannot see it for what it truly is, what I see is not fundamental or pure. This is one of the points where those ENFP contradictions happen also. On one level I hold a strong affection and attachment to a thing, while on another level I destroy those beliefs. Almost like seeing something close to perfection and somewhere in the background constantly destroying it and rebuilding it a little closer.

It is continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but which it has seen in a kind of vision. It glides unheedingly over all objects that do not fit with its aim. It strives after inner intensity, for which the objects serve at most as stimulus.

This is a very accurate description of how I experience it. The inner intensity part is important. I'm not sure how I would describe it.

 

[21%]

Empathy in Fi tends to be on an individual basis. Some people resonate within me, hard, while others barely show up on my radar. When I do empathize with someone, I can feel a bit helpless about it.

In your picture, imagine what would happen if another yellow ball with a smile came into play. Can you see how we would empathize with that single ball? Can you see how the uniqueness of that connection would make it much more intense and focused? Us vs the world. This is why Fi doesn't like being called non-empathetic.

Fe has a tendency to notice all the people that Fi doesn't empathize with, and call us disingenuous. Hardly fair. Fi notices that Fe empathizes with everyone, and wonders how you can truly empathize with anyone. Which is pretty presumptuous on Fi's part.

This sounds awesome, awesome, awesome!

I think everyone wants to be that other yellow ball on the receiving end of Fi and those who aren't are just bitter

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

And to be honest, this pic disturbed me at the same time I felt it to be the most accurate. Those emo pics I was like OK, alright.

That picture is great. To me the fascinating thing is that you found it disturbing. I guess that says something about Fe, but that is a discussion for another thread.

Also, if you formulate a question in a F(i)-hostile way (without realizing it), I will reword it back to you, to a) confirm that that is what you're asking and b) teach how to word stuff properly without an emotionally negative ring to it.

I'm interested in part b) in general. I didn't really think there was a way to phrase things so that I could be sure that I wouldn't offend some Fi person out there. If there is then I'd like to know how. If I offend Fe the person will usually let me know how, while if I offend Fi they might either explode without explanation or simply seethe with anger quietly to themselves. If there some universal guidelines that would let me avoid offending an Fi person, then I'd like to know what they are.

 

[proteanmix]

TLL, I do think it's very indicative of (my) Fe as much as it is of my interpretation of Fi...maybe that pic encapsulates both Fe and Fi at the same time. I think that on one hand why is that little yellow one smiling when everyone else is upset? It doesn't even have to be happiness it could be why is that one unhappy when everyone else is smiling? ETA: So that's why I view that one yellow guy as out of sync but I understand why (actually ASO's explanation was pretty good) it is beneficial to have that person/people who don't necessarily sync.

Yes, it does basically boil down to maybe even some twisted sense of harmony, everyone crying in their beer together. I don't know that pic was just freaky to me and it's not the first time I've thought that when I've seen it.

A hypothetically ideal contrast to that pic is this one:

I find that ideal because no one emotion predominates, I personally wouldn't feel inundated by a particular feeling of anything. It's like a diversity and buffet of emotional states to choose from. No one person or group has a monopoly on a particular state of mind, everything is diffuse and evenly spread out, which may not seem very Fe-like but is how I view it. This goes back to what Amargith and I were speaking about recently of how my view of Fe is keeping things at a optimal and comfortable emotional level. There's an emotional extremity about the first pic that I feel uncomfortable about whereas it's not there with the second pic. ETA: Even though there doesn't seem to be solidarity in the pic above either there is a sense of balance that I would feel satisfied with. Everyone still owns their own emotions but it's not so polarized.

Maybe this will be a helpful contrast in this discussion.

 

[Seymour]

Hope you don't mind if I take a stab at Fi and xNFPs in organizations, since I work in the corporate world and have my own perspective.

OK, here's my honest observation. Forgive me if it sounds hostile because that is not my intention.

I don't think it's sounds hostile at all. I think you sound frustrated with your coworkers, but that's understandable.

When reviewing the "Fi is" thread this is the picture that struck me as most accurate about Fi:

And to be honest, this pic disturbed me at the same time I felt it to be the most accurate. Those emo pics I was like OK, alright.

I can see that picture as representing being dangerously out of touch. I think one can read all kinds of things into it, including wondering if the viewer has a role in the picture. One could read it as the happy ball being happy to see the viewer, and that connection creating happiness in a sea of isolated unhappiness. You'll note that none of the balls are making any kind of eye contact with each other and each is isolated in its unhappiness.

Although it does feel a bit silly to have an art interpretation discussion about that picture.

It scared me because this is how out of touch with everyone Fi can be and I hardly see how that's empathetic. And yes, I want Fi users to admit this is something that people often encounter when dealing with Fi! It's not an isolated, unnatural, or rare occurrence. My reality does not align with what Fi users are portraying on the forum about how helplessly empathetic they feel.

When I was describing my out of control empathy as a child, that was then. As an adult, I don't have that same issue and I definitely make choices about who I empathize with (or whether I do at all). The easiest way to control it is physically by absenting myself, but I am perfectly capable of willfully ignoring.

I have seen NFPs go into their happy bubble and be completely uncaring or oblivious to everyone else because they feel fine. That is the complete opposite of empathy. But I do see the positives in that because they do seem somewhat impervious to all the stress others feel for their own well-being (which I wish I had a greater ability for), but others who are looking for solidarity and that sense of shared experience and emotion find them out of touch, not an oasis of calm and strength. That does not make them particularly relatable or someone you feel you can talk to or depend on because their emotional state is so completely divergent from everyone else's and they don't even see it.

One big difference between Fe and Fi is that for Fi users the group or organization isn't particularly real. Only individuals are real. It's even worse for introverted Fi users, because groups and social organizations are usually "out there" for introverts, and seen as a threat to their autonomy and personal values.

I find Fe users to be far, far better at affecting the group dynamic. While I'm aware of the group emotional state, I usually don't have the first idea how to change it. Sure, I can empathize with one person or another. I can even try to understand the practical reasons why someone is upset, but paying attention to the practical isn't my first impulse.

In fact, when people are unhappy at work, I tend to go around and talk to various people one-on-one to try to figure out where the problems are. I don't think xNFPs are particularly practical, though, so it takes effort for me to focus on the practical and also to push on people when things need to change. The knee-jerk respect for each person's autonomy is actively unhelpful when someone is being stupid and really needs to be pushed to changed.

I've avoided management positions because even though I'm reasonably personable and, in small groups or one-on-one, a "people person," I'm not practical, detail-oriented, schedule-oriented or sufficiently direct and pushy. When I do try to affect things, it's usually invisible to everyone except for the individuals I talk to.

I contrast all that with the Fe-masters I've seen. They can walk into a group (like some party that hasn't taken off yet), do something that just seems random and ridiculous, and suddenly everyone is having fun. I can be aware of the state and changes in the group dynamics, but I am utterly flummoxed about how Fe masters know how to change them. Also, Fe users tend to be more bold about directly pushing for what the group needs. The group is important and real to them, and they will fight for its well-being. I think it's much more typical for an Fi user to fight against a group (usually for some individual whose needs aren't being met or whose values aren't being acknowledged).

This is assessment is from my professional experience in working with NFPs in leadership positions, colleagues and past personal experience. I work in a very feeler-dominated organization because of the nature of the work. If my immediate work environment was more empathetic I'd be a much happier employee. I'm in the process of moving past this by adjusting my expectations to lessen my own personal disappointment.

I think if you have only Fi-oriented managers then in some sense there won't be a group. There might a few clusters and individuals who've made individual connections, but that's about it. I wouldn't be surprised if you had some Fi users who were fighting against organization mandates that don't even exist.

The reason why I find this offensive is because in my professional life the people who do this are grown women (50+) and for the most part I would say are what you would call well-adjusted and "nice" people. I'm not going to give the easy out of saying they're immature or haven't learned how to use their Fi. This is not aberrant behavior from NFPs. I'm not saying it's the norm, but it's not unusual or something like Halley's Comet that passes by the earth every 75 years. It is quite typical in the same way that Fe can often be overbearing, coercive, and unthinkingly normative.

I wish people would stop claiming one set of traits (the positive) are more likely than the other. Fi users (or maybe I should confine this to NFPs) are just as likely to be oblivious to everyone (and in their own happy bubble as that picture suggests) as they are helplessly empathetic towards everyone. To claim otherwise is disingenuous and untruthful.

I agree that xNFPs don't always make great managers. I think having a few in an organization is good, because they can provide a "conscience" for the organization and work to push back. Te (and even Fe) can lead to a very top-down management style. Fi (and Ti) tend to push back against that and bring in the reality of individuals (and facts/principles for Ti) and don't fit management's model.

I think xNFPs make even worse managers if they have non-management responsibilities that require them to use their Fi intensively. For example, if you have a therapist who is both supposed to manage AND do therapy, it's likely to be a disaster. Why? Because Fi (and empathy) get exhausted. If they are spending it all on their clients, they don't have much left for management. They probably don't have a lot of Fe to fall back on, either. Given the typically poor xNFP organizational skills, you may end up with bursts of Te-style steamrolling interspersed with long periods of not-so-benign neglect.

I'm not saying all xNFPs are disasters as managers, but many management positions require development of things that aren't strengths for most xNFPs. If you have mostly xNFPs in management, they are going need to use their less preferred functions consistently and often. That often doesn't make for happiness.

Plus, Fi tends to develop quirkily individual values and weighs things accordingly. Just because something external says you should care about something doesn't mean an Fi-user will. If there are too many Fi-users, this makes for a lot of organizational inconsistency.

So, I have no idea of any of that is helpful from your perspective, proteanmix. It's never fun to be part of a dysfunctional organization, and I agree it's typical for xNFPs to emotionally withdraw when they are surrounded by ongoing emotional upset. Oddly, someone with less emotional sensitivity might remain more engaged.

 

[OrangeAppled]

True and an interesting point. Fi destroys to create. When posed with a question like, "how can we help society and understand it?", my first action is to tear it to pieces. Not a logical break down either, just complete destruction of any merit or positive view of it that my mind has. Why? Somewhere in my mind there is the belief that if I hold any bias toward something instinctively I cannot see it for what it truly is, what I see is not fundamental or pure. This is one of the points where those ENFP contradictions happen also. On one level I hold a strong affection and attachment to a thing, while on another level I destroy those beliefs. Almost like seeing something close to perfection and somewhere in the background constantly destroying it and rebuilding it a little closer.

Yeah, Fi pretty much does what Ti does (More Jung: Everything, therefore, that we have said about introverted thinking is equally true of introverted feeling, only here everything is felt while there it was thought.), but Fi users are often concerned more with the moral and emotional realms than purely logical ones. Break something down to find how it works, extract the positive, reject the negative, and rebuild a more ideal system. But that is also far too technical or "intellectual" language, as Jung puts it; Fi works more abstractedly and holistically because it creates base principles that are broad.

I don't find myself consciously breaking stuff down when it comes to realizing my own values, which is probably why it takes so much energy to explain them outwardly. It seems backwards - start with the whole feeling and then analyze how you got there intellectually, but those terms can't ever fully describe it.

I also think that Fi is a source for ideas - it doesn't just evaluate/arrange external information because it's not even very interested in the external (by itself, again no person boils down to 1 function).

 

[Seymour]

I also think the dynamic that OA's quotation mentions:

It may, perhaps, break out in some extravagant form, leading to some astounding act of an almost heroic character... To the outside world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this intensive sympathy looks like coldness, because it usually does nothing visible...

also plays a role. If you are talking to an Fi user about their subjective perceptions, you are going to hear about the inner, intensive sympathy (because that's what we experience internally). From the outside, all you may see is inaction and detachment.

Note that usually all that feeling and sympathy doesn't do anyone (not even ourselves) a lick of good -- just like an NTPs building conceptual models and deep theoretical understanding doesn't do anyone else any good unless it leads to concrete action.

However, I think that NTPs believe that building a deeper understanding of theoretical concepts and systems is inherently worthwhile. Even without application you get better at breaking things down and understanding them, and that's a skill worth having. I suspect you would be offended, even dismissive, if others described your mental efforts as merely self-indulgent (and perhaps disgusting) because those others can't see a direct benefit.

 

[Amargith]

Tying up some loose ends...

OK, here's my honest observation. Forgive me if it sounds hostile because that is not my intention.

When reviewing the "Fi is" thread this is the picture that struck me as most accurate about Fi:

And to be honest, this pic disturbed me at the same time I felt it to be the most accurate. Those emo pics I was like OK, alright.

It scared me because this is how out of touch with everyone Fi can be and I hardly see how that's empathetic. And yes, I want Fi users to admit this is something that people often encounter when dealing with Fi! It's not an isolated, unnatural, or rare occurence. My reality does not align with what Fi users are portraying on the forum about how helplessly empathetic they feel.

I have seen NFPs go into their happy bubble and be completely uncaring or oblivious to everyone else because they feel fine. That is the complete opposite of empathy. But I do see the positives in that because they do seem somewhat impervious to all the stress others feel for their own well-being (which I wish I had a greater ability for), but others who are looking for solidarity and that sense of shared experience and emotion find them out of touch, not an oasis of calm and strength. That does not make them particularly relatable or someone you feel you can talk to or depend on because their emotional state is so completely divergent from everyone else's and they don't even see it.

This is assessment is from my professional experience in working with NFPs in leadership positions, colleagues and past personal experience. I work in a very feeler-dominated organization because of the nature of the work. If my immediate work environment was more empathetic I'd be a much happier employee. I'm in the process of moving past this by adjusting my expectations to lessen my own personal disappointment.

The reason why I find this offensive is because in my professional life the people who do this are grown women (50+) and for the most part I would say are what you would call well-adjusted and "nice" people. I'm not going to give the easy out of saying they're immature or haven't learned how to use their Fi. This is not aberrant behavior from NFPs. I'm not saying it's the norm, but it's not unusual or something like Halley's Comet that passes by the earth every 75 years. It is quite typical in the same way that Fe can often be overbearing, coercive, and unthinkingly normative.

I wish people would stop claiming one set of traits (the positive) are more likely than the other. Fi users (or maybe I should confine this to NFPs) are just as likely to be oblivious to everyone (and in their own happy bubble as that picture suggests) as they are helplessly empathetic towards everyone. To claim otherwise is disingenuous and untruthful.

Empathy in Fi tends to be on an individual basis. Some people resonate within me, hard, while others barely show up on my radar. When I do empathize with someone, I can feel a bit helpless about it.

In your picture, imagine what would happen if another yellow ball with a smile came into play. Can you see how we would empathize with that single ball? Can you see how the uniqueness of that connection would make it much more intense and focused? Us vs the world. This is why Fi doesn't like being called non-empathetic.

Fe has a tendency to notice all the people that Fi doesn't empathize with, and call us disingenuous. Hardly fair. Fi notices that Fe empathizes with everyone, and wonders how you can truly empathize with anyone. Which is pretty presumptuous on Fi's part.

I would like to add the following:

In the workplace, when I have things to do, and tasks to accomplish, I shut down my Fi, and revert to Te..to get the job done. So that's one reason why you could see that effect going on.

Then. You're quite right, protean. I'm not always quite as empathetic all the time. I was that way, when younger. With no walls up. And it flooded me, drove me mad and made me crumble and explode on people. I wasn't able to take it.

One of the things I learned when I was younger, was escapism. My Fi provides an enormously big inner world where nobody is ever expecting, demanding, annoying, guilttripping, etc etc. There's peace and calm there. It's a safe haven. Also, I'm unlikely to ever be bored through my skull there, unlike the real world. And I've become so good at going there, that sometimes I am *literally* not present in this world, literally disconnected from this world. And yes, at that point, I'm not empathetic...unless something is pulsating extremely strongly.

Also. Fe-users seem to be constantly plugged into the group-network going on. Me, not so much. Since you have a mouth, I expect you to tell me if you need me to help you with something. Be it a task, a feeling, whatever you need. I'll be glad to help you anyway I can, but since I cannot guarantee my presence, I expect you to ask. It's not that big of an effort. I'll do the same with you. I admire what you as a Fe-user do. You analyse the situation, instantly pick up on potential problems and little details to iron out before it becomes a big thing

Not me. Remember, Protean, how you said that it drained you to go towards those that vibe out a whole bunch of negativity? How you wonder if it's even supposed to be your job to clean that stuff up? How you rather not? I do..give me that *any* day over having to do maintenance every day. See, that's the stuff that drains the life out of me. And it's the stuff that I cannot help but wonder if it really is something I should be doing, if I really owe the world that much, coz it makes me feel like people's emotional babysitter. If you have a problem, I would love to help..but make sure that you don't get one? No..I'm sorry, I cannot be that present constantly. It's just too much energy required. I work in short bursts of a lot of energy, but I need recharging. This just leaves me flat.

That also means that there's amoment you no longer *need* to ask me anything. This is when you're pulsating such a strong need at me that I cannot help but gravitate towards you. At that point though, it's already a problem and you are already feeling bad. I zone in on intensity. The shitstorm you'd rather avoid, Protean...I'd say Fi and Fe are perfectly compatible for each other, to safeguard people's emotions, that is, if we learn to appreciate one another and work together

...Which brings me to the next topic:

I don't really get it at all. Is coddling over someone and making sure he's comfortable Fe while assuming he's capable of making himself comfortable Fi?

Also I want to express gratitude for this thread. It's refreshing with posts that might actually teach something.

Yes. Fe will coddle you, imo and ime, whereas me, with my Fi, will assume that you can handle your own emo details. Day to day stuff. It takes me an insane amount of energy (I dunno how you Fe-users do it) to constantly be aware of what your needs are. You're a grown person. So am I. I will gladly help you with *anything* you need, but ask. The moment you're overwhelmed however, and I'm not overloaded myself (at that point I'll go into my bubble not to make matters worse for anyone coz trust me, you do *not* wanna be near me when I'm emotionally overloaded), I will automatically gravitate towards you and try to soothe your pain anyway I can. I need to do that. Coz not doing so, hurts me as well. I literally cringe to see you suffer.

I gravitate towards intensity, towards intense feelings. And I do this in *every* part of my life. That means your pain, I will zone in on to soothe it. But also, I'm selfish, in a way. If you're in tremendous pain, taking it away will not only soothe your pain and mine, but also make you grateful towards me. It's a nice side-effect. And the bigger the pain was, the bigger the gratitude in my experience. Gratitude is an emotion. A pleasurable one. Intense gratitude is often the reward I gain from others. So when others tell me 'you seem so selfless when doing this', or they accuse me of trying to gain something from others such as power or manipulating them, they're wrong. I *do* gain something from you, namely an intensely pleasurable emotion. And that is my reward.

I do this as well with my own household for instance. I suck at being a housewife. Why? Coz I hate routine and don't find it satisfying to clean something that you can't even see is dirty (though I know it is). But let me clean up some clutter (which I hate doing) and afterwards, I'll feel intense satisfaction coz I can actually see the difference! So..it motivates me to do it again in the future. It's as simple as that.

And that's why I, at least, can be incredibly unattentive and yet incredibly empathic at the same time, as a person.

Fe-users are guides and preventors. Fi-users are solvers and cataclysts, imo.

Do we really need another thread on Fi? I feel like this topic has long beaten the dead horse. All I know is I really like most Fi-doms, IRL and a few on this forum. From everything I have learned about Fi is it's about individuality, personal/self valuations/ moral codes/ what one believes, and it feels emotions in gradients and feels things deeply. To some outsiders, it can come off "very selfish and self-centered" but it can also come off as kind and caring. It's as cool as Fe in my book.

Eh, there's a point where even some of us get tired of talking about ourselves... *kitty glare at Amar*

Boys, nobody says you have to be here. Considering the replies this thread already generated, I'd say there's still a need to debate this, though I admit it's been debated to death already. Let's hope that this time we get further again. This is kinda like figuring out the grammar rules to a language. Ask a native speaker to teach you their language and they'll struggle coz it comes naturally to them and they don't know the rules really. It takes time and trial and error to actually put those together. So let's bear that in mind, plz.

That picture is great. To me the fascinating thing is that you found it disturbing. I guess that says something about Fe, but that is a discussion for another thread.



I'm interested in part b) in general. I didn't really think there was a way to phrase things so that I could be sure that I wouldn't offend some Fi person out there. If there is then I'd like to know how. If I offend Fe the person will usually let me know how, while if I offend Fi they might either explode without explanation or simply seethe with anger quietly to themselves. If there some universal guidelines that would let me avoid offending an Fi person, then I'd like to know what they are.

There are rules to it yes
And, the benefit is, you can use them on anyone, they're called feedback rules , and they make communication between any number of types easier when observed.

 

[Chloe]

Romantic love is a craving, a motivation.

Or so I've heard on TED!

Sig-worthy!