Fe/Te Nudges, Ti/Fi alignments: Communication

[Fidelia]

Random Ness, I understand what you are saying - like if anything you may feel like you soft peddle things to be tactful. I think though that the very fact that Fe does believe there is a right way to behave (you know how we analyze our own emotions to see if they are reasonable at the time, or look for feedback from other people? That sort of thing), there's a right context to express dissent/approach people about a problem/criticize and that if people don't get the normal hints, then they need something more explicit makes Fi users break out in hives with us. It doesn't feel blunt to us, because if someone told us that expressing a particular feeling wasn't appropriate, it might make us mad, or introspective, but it wouldn't feel like a personal attack on something we value or on our right to BE. There are other things people could do that would make us feel that way, but it wouldn't be that.

Therefore it is incomprehensible sometimes when a Fe user gives a little "nudge" about something that the Fi user responds (internally or externally) in the manner that they do. They often will intentionally ignore the friendly hint dropped by the Fe user without acknowledging it, thereby inducing the Fe user to make their message even more direct. It appears to Fe like obliviousness, when it is more often that they feel by saying that some things aren't appropriate, you are questioning their right to be themselves.

To Fe, this reasoning doesn't make sense, so it is rejected in favour of the assumption that the person must just be oblivious and need more direction, or else they are purposefully trying to undermine what is trying to be done. Neither is true. Fi is not very focussed on action and outcome (except in relation to values that are violated) and cares more about expression and the right of the individual to authentically do and be what is true to them.

Fe sees this as rather idealistic and focusses more on practical action and accommodating the majority (most people possible, but not necessarily all people perfectly), rather than all individuals. It looks at generalities and then individualizes with Ni. Fi looks at individuals and then uses other functions like Ne or Te to generalize.

Orobas, I had a big long reply to your last question all ready and then the forum crashed. Will reconstruct before long.

 

[skylights]

[post edited out for personal info, sorry guys, i have a stalker

essentially content was a woman was rude to me at a store, asked me "wasn't a little late" with taking care of what i was taking care of?... i think she meant well but i took it as fairly offensive to myself and my family]

 

[Fidelia]

I don't know. Might be a Si thing? I don't identify with that, but I've certainly seen it done and find it rude, although I don't think that the person saying it has any intention of being rude. I think as you say they either are trying to be helpful, (or else they just don't filter their thoughts).

 

[skylights]

that's a good point, it sounds Si-driven.

though i'm consistently surprised by my mom, who is definitely ESFJ, but her Si doesn't manifest in traditionalist ways, if that makes sense. she's very small detail-attentive with information instead, and the desire to establish a "good, secure" present resounds with her. she does also tend to adhere to what has worked, much more than makes sense to me, but i don't know how that would be used to make a judgment call about someone else... i guess if they're deviating from what has worked? confusing to me. she's very Fe-tactful, in any case. it works best on other Fe users, but since we live in the us south, that's the majority of people, lol

i'm still trying to understand the differences between how SFJ and NFJ differences impact Fe (as well as how SFP and NFP differences impact Fi). and Ti and Te. function dynamics are very interesting.

 

[Random Ness]

Forget what I said about talking in "I think" statements. Sometimes I do that. Sometimes I don't. But if I don't add "I think" before a statement, don't think it's final and I can't be moved. Explain to me why you think I'm wrong (if I'm being stubborn, point out that I'm being difficult and it hurts you). A simple explanation can change my mind.

Woah, so many posts. I'll read them all...after dinner.

 

[sculpting]

Randomness had some really awesome observations above!

oro - this is really interesting, but can you try to give some examples for those numbered patterns you listed? my Ti kind of sucks and i'm getting stuck at coming up with an example for #3 with Ti in particular.

*So, as i have heard described by a few ENTPs.....-this might be like an ENFJ giving an NTP a stern talking to about how inappropriate a behavior is. The NTP listens, then later spends time ruminating with Ti over how they need to think about the world differently since what they were doing before wasnt the right way to think about it...But they reforge Ti alone. They dont need to talk about the incorrect behavior to change it.

*Or maybe two NFJs interacting where one makes an Fe point which alters the underlying Ti ideas of another???? (^^sorry these are both totally guesses given it isnt the way I think....)

*The alternate may be an INTJ trying to alter the values of another INTJ via pointing out flaws in their Te presentation. If the Te answer is incorrect, then obviously the underlying Fi values may not be quite right....

From an INTJ not on this forum, regarding another intj with some very scary values:

"Fi isn't often externalized because there's no expectation that others will respect it. Te on the other hand is "sturdy" so Fi, when expressed, is voiced through Te. If you want to see "externalized Fi" lurk in a heated debate. As the conversation heats up they'll display Fi. The catch is they're going to attempt to tangle it up with Te to protect the underlying belief.​

Fi can drive Ni+Te, it's just done in a roundabout manner. When this is done Ni+Te is applied to influence the outside world in a manner consistent with their Fi. Feedback goes the other direction as well, experiences processed by Ni and Te can reshape Fi but this process is very slow.

By sharing such an abnormal internal system with a group we know that his mind is made up that this line of thought is acceptable. So instead of trying to use social pressure (common ethical standards) they make external appeals to address the problem (seek help, this path will destroy you)."
​

Pattern 3 is a very strange way to approach discussions for me-to the point I actually didnt think it possible. It feels kinda manipulative? However I bet if you take the INTJ above's quote and trade Te/Fi for Fe/Ti, you might see how INFJs influence others and are influenced....that same application of Je externally to modify Ji internally.

perhaps check out the INTJs in the "car" thread though. They are all defending FiSe values (love of shiny cars) with lots of Te data and arguments...oddly just like the INTJ above pointed out.