Fe put-downs

[ms.behaving]

I find Fe can be like a butcher cleaver used to chop off a gangrenous limb.

Better to not be the limb, or else it will slay you to be discarded without remorse.

Ive always thought there was a cold and calculating side to Fe that most dont talk about, but I recognise it in myself from time to time, it's the part of me that would, (in a crisis), evaluate who was worth saving and why and which course of action would benefit the majority.

Doesn't that describe humanity in its darkest hour?

 

[Rail Tracer]

Am I the only one who think [MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION] is referring to Si?

 

[Istbkleta]

When someone says stuff like that to you just say "DON'T JUDGE ME!"

When I say this it has no effect. Many people LOVE judging others, ESFJs on the top of the list.

 

[Such Irony]

VERY good topic. Nice thread. There are much better examples actually than what you provide.

These situations actually can make me angry...

Fe types are utterly oblivious to this by the way.


.

These situations would also make me very angry.

I'm wondering if position of Fe matters. I'm an Fe user but its in my 4th position.

Or maybe it's not entirely related to Fe.

 

[Elfboy]

Am I the only one who think [MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION] is referring to Si?

he isn't. Si doesn't deal with social conventions

 

[Trunks]

When making decision, I put my Fe down, only logic comes in my mind.

 

[ms.behaving]

When I say this it has no effect. Many people LOVE judging others, ESFJs on the top of the list.

ESFJ's also LOVE people and when you're sick and dying, will likely be the first one at your bedside holding your hand through the night and seeing to it that you are comfortable and properly treated.

 

[Giggly]

I have some plants that all you cry babies can water.

 

[Rail Tracer]

he isn't. Si doesn't deal with social conventions

Well, he IS talking about people comparing and contrasting. As in, comparing social situations or wearing out-of-style clothing.

An ISTJ friend of mine always talks about how strange or awkward people are, and such and why are people doing "X." Which is basically comparing and contrasting social situations to his social situations.

 

[Istbkleta]

ESFJ's also LOVE people and when you're sick and dying, will likely be the first one at your bedside holding your hand through the night and seeing to it that you are comfortable and properly treated.

Unless they've judged me as a "non-standard issue of a human". In which case they'll hand me the cyanide to make the world a better, more predictable place full of conformity Inferior Ti doesn't make them exactly warmer

 

[UniqueMixture]

I think this is more of a ExFx thing personally. I think the ExTx version is more about questioning Se.

 

[ms.behaving]

There's a lot of ALL CAPS emphasis going on in here. Are we passionate or what?

[MENTION=13880]Istbkleta[/MENTION]: *laugh* that's why I keep friends close and my enemies even closer.

 

[The Great One]

Am I the only one who think [MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION] is referring to Si?

No Eric B. thought so too.

 

[Luv Deluxe]

On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.

Another example is to judge a person in a negative light because that person is not like other people. There is a failure to recognize what is unique and special about that person and to appreciate those things. All that is noticed is how they are different and it is wrong.

These descriptions strongly remind me of an ISFJ friend of mine. She usually means well, but she tends to big-sister me whenever I've had an adventure that she deems somehow inappropriate. Her judgments aren't disguised as jokes; she'll simply say things like, "You're old enough to make the right decision," or, "Well, maybe if you didn't dress like that..."

I'm also a slightly quirky individual, and she's always been quick to point out my idiosyncrasies ("Stop biting your lips, it looks weird!"). She's a very serious person who keeps to herself, so maybe she's worried about my quirks drawing unwanted attention to the both of us. Either way, it does make me feel bad, and sometimes it's hard for me to spend time with her at all when she's in a particularly negative rut.

 

[sculpting]

I actually had been thinking of starting a thread like this, asking for specific examples. What spurred it (for me) is getting annoyed at Te’ers, mostly Te doms, and wondering what exactly the Fe correlate looks like.

This doesn't even begin to be a problem for all, or probably even most, Te types- but there’s an inclination to respond to things with some incredibly obtuse dismissal (some variation of the word ‘stupid’ or ‘idiot’ is often involved) and there’s a bizarre smugness about it. I can remember my eNTJ ex doing this all the time- making some comment and his body language suggested he thought he was coming up with some clever remark when it was something incredibly obvious/dull and he was just coming off like a dim-witted caveman instead. I imagine the forcefulness comes from frustration, to vent- but where it’s blatant, it’s stunning. The more forcefully they call things ‘stupid’ or ‘idiotic’, the less capable they seem of being able to use their own reasoning to come to their own conclusions. It’s incredibly counterproductive because they effectively discredit themselves. And I know there must be some Fe correlate, but I’d like to hear some specific examples. Mostly for the selfish reason of wanting to make sure I'm keeping it in check myself.




I do think it’s interesting how Te ‘direction’ doesn’t seem to bother Fi/Te types and Fe 'direction' doesn’t seem as grating to Ti/Fe types. I mean it does get grating, but it tends not to be as wholly offensive. As [MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION] has touched on a few times here and there, there’s a tendency to project something into the other type which makes it seem more offensive than it’s intended to be. One of the reasons function theory makes sense to me is because I have noticed there being a strong tendency for people to find those with their own extraverted judgment to be tolerable (even if annoying) while having a visceral reaction to the extraverted counterpart of their introverted judging preference. I find Fe ‘nudges’ to be trivial and thoughtless, but don’t have anywhere near the same reaction to them as when someone goes full on Te caveman around me.

Is it because the Te caveman approach would be invalidating (please fill in the more precise word ) to a Ti user? I would hear the Te user and go "meh, bob is being a jackass again." It might even be a bit funny. When I hear the Fe user, it is much closer to heart-as though they wiped out the value I expressed as being worthless, and substituted thier own as having more value-thus invalidating the in.

A specific example (a long one, my apologies)-my little one recently started Kindergarten. as a baby INTJ, he was very overwhelmed and would just stand and cry-his little Fi was so overwhelmed and he couldnt figure out a Te action plan-he didnt know what to DO yet-he needed to watch the system a bit and get a hang of the routine.

My thought was that I could sit with him before school while he ate breakfast in the cafeteria, treat him with insulin and then walk him to class, so he could get the hang of things. His school was very Fe heavy, extremely so. It rubbed me a bit funny, but I know this is just me and I wanted him to gain perspective of different types of people, so I tried to ignore it. The first day of school I asked the cafeteria teachers if I could sit and it with him. They said "Well...., no...we really dont have enough chairs for that..." with extremely heavy Fe overtones and a huge wierd smile. I looked over and saw about ten cafeteria tables open.

This wasnt meant to be a put-down, more an attempt to control, but it still felt hurtful. The reason it was hurtful was that, without realizing it, she had dismissed my concerns for my son as being invalid.

Step 1-I love my son> Step 2-he was hurting> Step 3-I needed to give him comfort> Step 4-I tried to provide him supportive structure by eating breakfast with him, in a way that doesnt interfere with his school day > Result: My action was rebuffed, based upon her value judgement, thus inadvertantly, she rendered the expression of love for my son as being invalid. By blocking my action, it reveberated back upon the chain of value based linkages (steps) all the way to step 1.

This backwards reverberation is internally troubling, as if I accept her "replacement" judgement as being correct-it places one of my core values for my son in question....maybe that isnt the right value to hold? This is of course, ridiculous, so in the moment, I make my way back down the value chain-through each step-revalidating that the values are reasonable....then I become angry that she would be so self-centric to try make her own selfish values take precendent over what is best for my child. and become defensive.

The underlined ^^ part is the projection error on my part-it assumes she is an Fi user. Knowing what I know, I dimissed the anger, tried to evaluate the decision as a desire to provide continuity for all the children and just let it go.

We spent three days at this very heavy Fe school, seeing many examples of this same type of behavior. I tried to go with the flow, but ISTP daddy finally snapped and dropped the F-bomb on one of the cross walk ladies. He described them as being (my apologies and no offense intended) "Fucking retarded Nazis" as they just kept trying to enforce rules that were illogical to him, so he requested we move the little guy to a local charter school.

What struck me as very weird was how invalidating the Fe heavy school felt-like the individuality of the children was totally discarded. Instead of "you are a special beautiful little star and filled with potential to do anything you put your mind to, but you do need to follow the rules" (Fi validation, Te affirmation, Te rule setting), the message was "You are no more special than anyone else and dont get special treatment, but we are all in this togehter, let's all be friends together and respect each other and be civil to others by behaving in the same way" (Ti devalidation???/Fe affirmation/Fe behavioral setting)

(He ended up in the local charter school which is pretty Fi heavy. The front lobby is painted silver, kelly green, orange sherbet, off yellow, burgundy, and pink in long vertical stripes a foot wide. It is crazy and I cant pick up Fe from anyone.)

 

[cascadeco]

he isn't. Si doesn't deal with social conventions

Tell that to my ISTJ mother.

I think Si can be highly relevant to social norms/behavioral norms/life norms/job norms, regardless of whether it's SFJ's or STJ's you're talking about. Si can be very tied to what's 'appropriate'/standard, whether social or other life decisions.

Edit: Generation plays into this too: todays' 'standard' is pretty different from the generation my mom is a part of, where her generation very much emphasized more of the social appropriateness, manners, etc etc.

 

[Eric B]

The functions are but different perspectives of each situation. We get into reducing them to just behaviors, and that causes this sort of confusion.

Si is an irrational perception of stored tangible data (experience, learned values), and Fe is a rational function that makes decisions based on external standards such as the values of the local environment.
So both can process the same data (in this case, “social norms”, and be reflected in similar behavior). It's just that the process itself is still different from each other.

 

[highlander]

My thought was that I could sit with him before school while he ate breakfast in the cafeteria, treat him with insulin and then walk him to class, so he could get the hang of things. His school was very Fe heavy, extremely so. It rubbed me a bit funny, but I know this is just me and I wanted him to gain perspective of different types of people, so I tried to ignore it. The first day of school I asked the cafeteria teachers if I could sit and it with him. They said "Well...., no...we really dont have enough chairs for that..." with extremely heavy Fe overtones and a huge wierd smile. I looked over and saw about ten cafeteria tables open.

This wasnt meant to be a put-down, more an attempt to control, but it still felt hurtful. The reason it was hurtful was that, without realizing it, she had dismissed my concerns for my son as being invalid.

Step 1-I love my son> Step 2-he was hurting> Step 3-I needed to give him comfort> Step 4-I tried to provide him supportive structure by eating breakfast with him, in a way that doesnt interfere with his school day > Result: My action was rebuffed, based upon her value judgement, thus inadvertantly, she rendered the expression of love for my son as being invalid. By blocking my action, it reveberated back upon the chain of value based linkages (steps) all the way to step 1.

This backwards reverberation is internally troubling, as if I accept her "replacement" judgement as being correct-it places one of my core values for my son in question....maybe that isnt the right value to hold? This is of course, ridiculous, so in the moment, I make my way back down the value chain-through each step-revalidating that the values are reasonable....then I become angry that she would be so self-centric to try make her own selfish values take precendent over what is best for my child. and become defensive.

Of course she was trying tro do what was best for your son and to encourage him to be more on his own and fit in with the other children. They were supporting him and you acting in a socially conforming way. The impact of the interaction can be what you describe - invalidating your feelings or your actions as being "wrong" as they are not in the best interests of the collective whole (or something like that).

What struck me as very weird was how invalidating the Fe heavy school felt-like the individuality of the children was totally discarded. Instead of "you are a special beautiful little star and filled with potential to do anything you put your mind to, but you do need to follow the rules" (Fi validation, Te affirmation, Te rule setting), the message was "You are no more special than anyone else and dont get special treatment, but we are all in this togehter, let's all be friends together and respect each other and be civil to others by behaving in the same way" (Ti devalidation???/Fe affirmation/Fe behavioral setting)

Right. I think that is exactly what can happen. The "no more special" part I think also may have something to do with a value structure that is aligned with trying to foster humility in the child. There is however a balance between humility, development of the ego, confidence and self esteem. There are also benefits however to conforming socially or in other ways however, so the thinking is not all wrong.

 

[highlander]

My thought was that I could sit with him before school while he ate breakfast in the cafeteria, treat him with insulin and then walk him to class, so he could get the hang of things. His school was very Fe heavy, extremely so. It rubbed me a bit funny, but I know this is just me and I wanted him to gain perspective of different types of people, so I tried to ignore it. The first day of school I asked the cafeteria teachers if I could sit and it with him. They said "Well...., no...we really dont have enough chairs for that..." with extremely heavy Fe overtones and a huge wierd smile. I looked over and saw about ten cafeteria tables open.

This wasnt meant to be a put-down, more an attempt to control, but it still felt hurtful. The reason it was hurtful was that, without realizing it, she had dismissed my concerns for my son as being invalid.

Step 1-I love my son> Step 2-he was hurting> Step 3-I needed to give him comfort> Step 4-I tried to provide him supportive structure by eating breakfast with him, in a way that doesnt interfere with his school day > Result: My action was rebuffed, based upon her value judgement, thus inadvertantly, she rendered the expression of love for my son as being invalid. By blocking my action, it reveberated back upon the chain of value based linkages (steps) all the way to step 1.

This backwards reverberation is internally troubling, as if I accept her "replacement" judgement as being correct-it places one of my core values for my son in question....maybe that isnt the right value to hold? This is of course, ridiculous, so in the moment, I make my way back down the value chain-through each step-revalidating that the values are reasonable....then I become angry that she would be so self-centric to try make her own selfish values take precendent over what is best for my child. and become defensive.

Of course she was trying tro do what was best for your son and to encourage him to be more on his own and fit in with the other children. They were supporting him and you acting in a socially conforming way. The impact of the interaction can be what you describe - invalidating your feelings or your actions as being "wrong" as they are not in the best interests of the collective whole (or something like that).

What struck me as very weird was how invalidating the Fe heavy school felt-like the individuality of the children was totally discarded. Instead of "you are a special beautiful little star and filled with potential to do anything you put your mind to, but you do need to follow the rules" (Fi validation, Te affirmation, Te rule setting), the message was "You are no more special than anyone else and dont get special treatment, but we are all in this togehter, let's all be friends together and respect each other and be civil to others by behaving in the same way" (Ti devalidation???/Fe affirmation/Fe behavioral setting)

Right. I think that is exactly what can happen. The "no more special" part I think also may have something to do with a value structure that is aligned with trying to foster humility in the child. There is however a balance between humility, development of the ego, confidence and self esteem. There are also benefits to conforming socially, so some of that thinking is not all bad.

I think that the Fe types will tend to think that the Fi user's feelings are "wrong" at times. "You shouldn't feel that way or think that way and I think less of you because you do."

 

[Qlip]

I know a couple inferior Fe'ers that point out things in a way that seems like and probably is dissaproval and alarm. A dismissive laugh and ramping up the offending behaviour seems like the best solution, it gets them laughting too. ISTPs are cool like that.